Pre + Pro + Sub..?

[IansDad88(Don)]

Well hell... It's an AVR so I guess I skimmed too fast, or maybe assumed.

 

[IansDad88(Don)]

Not trying to beat you over the head with it, Ian. Just many think electronics are a major contributor these days to sound quality and generally they're not, could well be different from car audio world altho my Kenwood head unit with silly watt ratings as well as the two power amps also with silly ratings I've got hooked up to its pre-outs still do a pretty good job with the speakers/sub I've got in my van. Putting serious hifi in my van would be silly, tho...just a poor environment.

I can appreciate trying to stay with speakers you like, too, but that is where sound quality really does change. I can appreciate being on a budget in retirement, too....me, too.

This is always a handy graphic for expressing the sentiment you mentioned View attachment 32715

Exactly..! I'm not a Simpsons fan, but that was it. LOL

Obviously you've spent some $ on your van. As have I, and I'm on much more confident footing there. And I also have 2 amps in my Truck. We're not gonna compare cause I did spend money, cause I used to drive an hour each way to work, and I made the trip from Detroit to LA about 6 times, and Detroit to Atlanta about 6 times. Heh, I might win there but I'd no doubt envy your home setup.

BTW, I'm Don. Ian is my son. Hehe Hence the IansDad on my license plates since 1988

Also, remember, the speakers were a gift on sale, so while that may be my biggest payoff, costing me nothing, I can build backwards and just upgrade them last as time and money permit. It's just that right now the Onkyo should be in the basement on some other setup. It's not my favorite at all.

 

[lovinthehd]

Exactly..! I'm not a Simpsons fan, but that was it. LOL

Obviously you've spent some $ on your van. As have I, and I'm on much more confident footing there. And I also have 2 amps in my Truck. We're not gonna compare cause I did spend money, cause I used to drive an hour each way to work, and I made the trip from Detroit to LA about 6 times, and Detroit to Atlanta about 6 times. Heh, I might win there but I'd no doubt envy your home setup.

BTW, I'm Don. Ian is my son. Hehe Hence the IansDad on my license plates since 1988

LOL Don, sorry about the Ian....I did see dad before and forgot. When I first took my van to an installer for an improvement over the pretty basic/poor stock stereo as well as connectivity to use it with external devices, they installed the head unit and some better speakers....it was still insufficient, so took it back and they thought well maybe more power and a few more speakers would do the trick, so got an amp and more speakers....still not enough so we added the sub and an amp for the sub....that did it. It did cost $$ but they spent a lot of time on the install and did a clean job (and its still doing great several years later) and I didn't want to mess with the wiring or the interior panels/headliner....but for home gear am more hands-on I just gotta have good tunes in the vehicles I drive (or the rooms I dwell/work in)...

I have several setups at home due to accumulation of gear over the years....but am running out of rooms to put it in (still have some gear left, tho).

 

[IansDad88(Don)]

Having sold those things for a few years, I'm not at all surprised to hear how your van setup went. It's actually typical for someone with good ears but not 100% knowledge of the field. And I would have sold you the Kenwood also..!

This might be a difference between the two, and why I maybe think some things that I do. - while it's always best to get a better Head unit to start your setup. In a car If you get good speakers and good amps then you can indeed manage with an average base point. A good amp to run your front and rear with both a HP and LP crossover, and a bridged 2 channel or Mono driving a sub box... Add that to even just reference level speakers and you'll get good sound. The amp is everything..!

Is also the same basic setup I have, and it's all hidden behind the stock panels so unless I'm thumping next to you, you don't have any idea what's inside. Of course I don't have the Kenwood though.

But maybe this "shoe on the other foot" exercise helps you understand some of the mistakes in my thinking... but also what I'm looking for. Because in this situation, I'm not really needing my truck setup, but more along the lines of your van setup. Only maybe with an Alpine Head unit instead of the Kenwood. - that's why I like the Marantz. But, I'd be fine with Bad, Monoprice... Whatever. I do like to lean to the Marantz though cause I have my Heos all setup, and frankly I just like em.

Anyway, between reading all those articles, all sounding exactly the same... I was considering what we went over in the thread, and I did think that a separate amp with more power would be a good thing. Cause it's what is do in my truck. And because that's how Marantz seems setup. I mean hell if they had their way I'd be buying 3 pieces (all the things that end in 006)

But now, I can see that an AVR will work. I just have to ignore all the reviews and advice I read online. I just have to satisfy this requirement I didn't even know I had, with the bass management business. And I have had separate crossover units in my trucks many times so you'd think I'd understand


If I'm completely honest though, I'm not sure if I understand yet why an amplifier doesn't always have some "signal out" for a sub. Is it really because people who but separates always have what we called "Tower" speakers when I was a kid. Meaning something big with a 12 or more built right into it..? I guess that would make sense. The big amp driving all the speakers. Tweet, Mids and Woofer. But I also thought that smaller profile floorstanding types were more in vogue now. Even for expensive stuff. Like those Keff 11s I think they are.

 

[lovinthehd]

Yeah I think they were just going on what most customers wanted/would be satisfied by....altho the owner and I did have good home setups and discussed those a bit, not sure he conveyed that to the installers who seemed to know their stuff a bit better really (after spending a bit of time with one setting up the gain structure). In the end even tho it's a passenger van it has limitations as a listening space, especially when the engine is running and on the road

As to how important an amp is, sure it's important but it can come in a variety of packages and levels of capability. I think perhaps a wider variety than experienced in car world to cater to a variety of consuming habits. I think it's generally overhyped in home audio as to importance generally, tho. Lots of ways to get adequate amplification, but you need to understand what your actual requirements are.....

 

[Pogre]

If I'm completely honest though, I'm not sure if I understand yet why an amplifier doesn't always have some "signal out" for a sub. Is it really because people who but separates always have what we called "Tower" speakers when I was a kid. Meaning something big with a 12 or more built right into it..? I guess that would make sense. The big amp driving all the speakers. Tweet, Mids and Woofer. But I also thought that smaller profile floorstanding types were more in vogue now. Even for expensive stuff. Like those Keff 11s I think they are.

My guess is because a lot of 2 channel "purists" don't believe in using subwoofers.

 

[lovinthehd]

My guess is because a lot of 2 channel "purists" don't believe in using subwoofers.

This was always a good read in that light by someone who actually does decent sub reviews, Brent Butterworth (and I've always wondered, is he a relation to the the filter with that same moniker?). https://audiophilereview.com/subwoofers/what-audiophiles-are-getting-wrong-about-subwoofers.html

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

My guess is because a lot of 2 channel "purists" don't believe in using subwoofers.

Yep. I’m sure they did a study group of target buyers and found exactly that. I still think it’s dumb. Lots of serious guys use AVR’s for 2.0/2.1
So why not have bass management on a 2ch amp?

 

[IansDad88(Don)]

Yep. I’m sure they did a study group of target buyers and found exactly that. I still think it’s dumb. Lots of serious guys use AVR’s for 2.0/2.1
So why not have bass management on a 2ch amp?

Hey guys...

Just read the "Speaker" section of that NR1200. This appears to be "essentially" the same setup as in my 6013. Does this not count as bass management, or am I missing the bus still, yet again..?

Even without the CD player, I'm looking this more and more. 2 X 75. Sub out x 2.! Plenty of inputs, digital and Analog. I'm missing something right.? Why did Snake write no bass management..?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Unless we’re both on the short bus it looks like bass mgmt to me.

 

[IansDad88(Don)]

Unless we’re both on the short bus it looks like bass mgmt to me.

Thanks... At first I thought maybe I read it too quickly and missed something but I feel better now that someone sees what I see.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Looks like a nice little unit. I don’t particularly love the power rating, but I don’t think it’s made to peel skin with crazy spl. If you wanted to it has pre-outs at least.

 

[IansDad88(Don)]

Looks like a nice little unit. I don’t particularly love the power rating, but I don’t think it’s made to peel skin with crazy spl. If you wanted to it has pre-outs at least.

It's ironic you said that because I was just going to ask if that wasn't the case. Last time I brought up more power though I got a serious beat down in the earlier part of this thread.

But if I'm seeing this right, I could use the pre-outs to connect a more beefed up amp if that was something I wanted right?

I'm actually liking it more and more. And it's hard to beat the $

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

It's ironic you said that because I was just going to ask if that wasn't the case. Last time I brought up more power though I got a serious beat down in the earlier part of this thread.

But if I'm seeing this right, I could use the pre-outs to connect a more beefed up amp if that was something I wanted right?

I'm actually liking it more and more. And it's hard to beat the $

Hard to say about the power. It could be plenty for you. You’d have to try it out to know for sure. Or find a review with bench testing. There is an spl calculator somewhere. I’m sure pogre or HD will post it. Or peng.
FWIW I’ve had disparities between AVR’s that were rated only 10 watts apart.(125x7 and 135x7). The 125w AVR shouldn’t have had a noticeable shortcoming in power but it did compared to the higher rated one. It’s not impossible to say it was differences between mcacc and audyssey where mcacc possibly was trying to boost signals that audyssey wasn’t. Don’t know! Don’t matter no mo. My 6012 is giving me smooth caramel bass, creamy chocolate mid range and sweet sugary treble. Sooo good. Ok sorry, that last bit was for the guys.

 

[snakeeyes]

Hey guys...

Just read the "Speaker" section of that NR1200. This appears to be "essentially" the same setup as in my 6013. Does this not count as bass management, or am I missing the bus still, yet again..?

Even without the CD player, I'm looking this more and more. 2 X 75. Sub out x 2.! Plenty of inputs, digital and Analog. I'm missing something right.? Why did Snake write no bass management..?

Oops.

Most of the 2 channel ones don’t but this looks good.

 

[snakeeyes]

Unless we’re both on the short bus it looks like bass mgmt to me.

Ya I was wrong.

I think I’d still want the Denon 3500 over this one though if both are $600. A bit more power.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Ya I was wrong.

I think I’d still want the Denon 3500 over this one though if both are $600. A bit more power.

Agreed. I would do the same thing. It would also allow you future upgrade options that the 2ch(+Bch) wouldn’t. Iansdad has something specific in mind and the 1200 will still work for that.

 

[Pogre]

Oh, and for the record, I don't think your speakers are poop. Not at all. You brought up McIntosh tho, and I don't consider my own speakers worthy of that kind of fuss.

 

[sterling shoote]

The Marantz has a low pass filter, which can be set from 40 to 250Hz in fixed increments. The default setting is 80Hz. It appears the Left/Right channels will still be fed full frequency.

 

[Pogre]

The Marantz has a low pass filter, which can be set from 40 to 250Hz in fixed increments. The default setting is 80Hz. It appears the Left/Right channels will still be fed full frequency.

That's what I thought I saw. It has a low pass filter for the sub, but I didn't see any actual crossover setting for bass management?