Pre + Pro + Sub..?

[IansDad88(Don)]

Yeah, the Onkyo is certainly serviceable, and these speakers easy to drive, but I'm just missing that one part of the sound I want.

These items may be crap, but like I said they do all the things I want done, so in my mind it should work. I'm just getting used to the idea they won't.

MARANTZND8006 CD Player/Music Streamer/DAC w/ HEOS.

Marantz ND8006

CD player/music streamer/digital preamp with Wi-Fi®, Bluetooth®, Apple AirPlay® 2, and HEOS

www.crutchfield.com

And

Marantz MM7025

Stereo power amplifier

www.crutchfield.com

Will a copy/paste hyperlink work here..?

Honestly, I think with what I already have, I could start saving, and maybe spend roughly $1500 ballpark and not have to ever buy anything else until something broke. I've got the mains, and I have a 12 not in use that I had hoped would fit here. So it's really just a matter of doing what those do. And my penchant for the brand. But I'm not gonna die on the Marantz hill. I just like em...

 

[IansDad88(Don)]

Yeah, the Onkyo is certainly serviceable, and these speakers easy to drive, but I'm just missing that one part of the sound I want.

These items may be crap, but like I said they do all the things I want done, so in my mind it should work. I'm just getting used to the idea they won't.

MARANTZND8006 CD Player/Music Streamer/DAC w/ HEOS.

Marantz ND8006

CD player/music streamer/digital preamp with Wi-Fi®, Bluetooth®, Apple AirPlay® 2, and HEOS

www.crutchfield.com

And

Marantz MM7025

Stereo power amplifier

www.crutchfield.com

Will a copy/paste hyperlink work here..?

Honestly, I think with what I already have, I could start saving, and maybe spend roughly $1500 ballpark and not have to ever buy anything else until something broke. I've got the mains, and I have a 12 not in use that I had hoped would fit here. So it's really just a matter of doing what those do. And my penchant for the brand. But I'm not gonna die on the Marantz hill. I just like em...

Oh crap, I don't mean for that to come out like an advertisement... Should I edit those out..?

 

[Mikado463]

Yeah, the Onkyo is certainly serviceable, and these speakers easy to drive, but I'm just missing that one part of the sound I want.

These items may be crap, but like I said they do all the things I want done, so in my mind it should work. I'm just getting used to the idea they won't.

MARANTZND8006 CD Player/Music Streamer/DAC w/ HEOS.

Marantz ND8006

CD player/music streamer/digital preamp with Wi-Fi®, Bluetooth®, Apple AirPlay® 2, and HEOS

www.crutchfield.com

And

Marantz MM7025

Stereo power amplifier

www.crutchfield.com

Will a copy/paste hyperlink work here..?

Honestly, I think with what I already have, I could start saving, and maybe spend roughly $1500 ballpark and not have to ever buy anything else until something broke. I've got the mains, and I have a 12 not in use that I had hoped would fit here. So it's really just a matter of doing what those do. And my penchant for the brand. But I'm not gonna die on the Marantz hill. I just like em...

So, with this plan would you be able to utilize your Onkyo receiver as the pre-amp ? assuming it has pre-outs ? Or will you be looking for a separate pre / line stage ?

Do you have a brick and mortar store to which you can deal with ? I ask because most online retailers tend to charge msrp. Marantz is typically discounted 15-20%

 

[IansDad88(Don)]

Well, to be honest, calling it a "plan" might even be giving it too much credit. But it smoldering in my mind did get me started on this track.

What essentially happened was, I saw that ND8006 and I just thought wow that's great. It literally does exactly everything I want.

That thought kicked off the whole chain. Being "un" powered I figured it needed an amp and the 140 WPC 7025 has always been in my mind. Because I've considered one day relieving my AVR of its front channel requirements by attaching one of these to the AVR pre outs. Hell in my fever sweats I've even considered the Marantz 7055 to upgrade 5 of the 11 channels.

But the point was if I were to use the 2 channel Marantz with that CD/Streaming /DAC how do I connect a sub. That was what started the whole thing. Just that question. Because I didn't know that such a thing wasn't an option. I mean no wonder I couldn't fugue out on my own how to do it... Because apparently you just can't.

My previous visit here I don't think you were on that thread, so you may have missed out on some of my background where I've told everyone how little I actually know. So my visits here are typically not to share fun and cool posts about the awesome stuff I have... but more like this thread where I'm totally ignorant and don't understand why these Legos don't go together..?

The Onkyo is a TX-8140 (2015) model basic stereo. It has a phono in and a line out, so maybe could be if some use but aside from its sub pre out in not seeing it. And it wasn't really part of the "plan"

I'm in Detroit and we do have everything available. I could get to a Best Buy in 30 minutes. Which BTW thanks for that. I didn't know it. I got my AVR at the end of model year and nearly 50% off brand new, so I didn't need to actually go anywhere to a store. They seemed to be dumping them for lacking of a feature..? (SR-6013). I think it was missing Virtual Atmos and I guess they have some plan that didn't include a firmware upgrade on this unit. Anyhow, that's off topic again...

So yeah, not actually much of a plan. More of a pipe dream in need of an education. And TBH I'm still wondering if I am missing something.

 

[Mikado463]

Ok Don, lets start fresh .........

Assuming you go with the Marantz 2 ch amp, you will need some form of pre amplification in front of it, whether it be a stand alone preamp or a receiver that offers 'pre-outs' (usually RCA jacks) that you would connect it to the inputs of your amp.

Now , I think you mentioned you had a 'powered sub' correct ? Assuming as such the easy connection is that via LFE option on the back of your sub. As I mentioned in my earlier post I do this for my sub from the additional 'main outs' that I have on my preamp.

So, in summation if you go with a separate 2 ch 'amp' you will need either a preamp/linestage or capable AVR/Receiver in front of it.

 

[TLS Guy]

I've read the manual for the 2ch. Marantz product you earlier mentioned. I may have missed it but wondering if mains can be set to crossover point and what the crossover point is for sub output?

There are two sub outputs, and the bass management is the same as on any receiver we are familiar with. I have to say that the product I cited seems to me to be a very useful product and making a long overdue appearance. It deserves to have wide application.

To be honest most rooms and systems are not really suited to more than two channels. Most people here on these forums would be better off with just two really good channels and a sub or two. So often less is more.

 

[lovinthehd]

There are two sub outputs, and the bass management is the same as on any receiver we are familiar with. I have to say that the product I cited seems to me to be a very useful product and making a long overdue appearance. It deserves to have wide application.

To be honest most rooms and systems are not really suited to more than two channels. Most people here on these forums would be better off with just two really good channels and a sub or two. So often less is more.

I also looked at that manual, no mention of crossover or high pass filter....only a low pass for the sub.....have something beyond that?

 

[TLS Guy]

I also looked at that manual, no mention of crossover or high pass filter....only a low pass for the sub.....have something beyond that?

I think you are probably right. There is no provision to set the mins to small, so I suspect there is no high pass filter. That is a bad mistake.

So the OP really only has two options, a full blown AV receiver, or a preamp with an active crossover between preamp power amps and subs.

We really do need a properly designed 2.1 receiver or pre/pro. It seems we still don't have one, which will not make the OP happy.

 

[sterling shoote]

I think you are probably right. There is no provision to set the mins to small, so I suspect there is no high pass filter. That is a bad mistake.

So the OP really only has two options, a full blown AV receiver, or a preamp with an active crossover between preamp power amps and subs.

We really do need a properly designed 2.1 receiver or pre/pro. It seems we still don't have one, which will not make the OP happy.

It's a conundrum, music producers want, it appears, to confine us to a stereo experience and yet we're lured to multi-channel systems for which there is relatively little multi-channel music media. Of course I see the appeal of stereo receivers these days, since most music streaming is stereo. Seems Marantz almost has it right. Fit the receiver with a DAC, Airplay support, and sub/mains filters for a very compelling product. BTW, how's your new Marantz Pre-Pro working out for you. I've been thinking about supplementing my Sony TA-E/TA-P9000ES units with the Marantz model you bought, although so far, Airport Express and an OPPO-205 have precluded an absolute need for a more up to date Pre-Pro.

 

[everettT]

If you want to drop 1k the minidsp SHD is highly configurable including dirac live. All of the outputs are independent.

SHD

Roon Ready network audio streamer with Dirac Live® room correction, miniDSP audio toolbox for subwoofer integration and multiway speakers, Volumio music player, Audiophile 32-bit converters, 450MHz Sharc DSP processor

www.minidsp.com

 

[KEW]

We really do need a properly designed 2.1 receiver or pre/pro. It seems we still don't have one, which will not make the OP happy.

There is the Outlaw rr 2160 I mentioned earlier, and the Yamaha rn803, and the Onkyo 8270. Pretty sure all these have proper bass management settings that include HPF for the mains and LPF for the sub.
There is also an Integra equivalent to the Onkyo, but I don't remember the model number on it.

 

[Pogre]

A few wordy replies and I did do some skimming, but I strongly second something with bass management as opposed to just a sub out. I thought Kew gave a pretty good explanation.

Good bass management will limit the bass at whichever low frequency you choose for your speakers (high pass filter) for a cutoff and hands off (smoothly) to your subwoofer. The sub picks up where your speakers leave off (again, your choice tho most would recommend a starting point of 80 hz). Limiting the higher energy low frequencies your main speakers play will be easier on your amp and IME I think they sound cleaner and can play louder without distortion.

 

[IansDad88(Don)]

It's a conundrum, music producers want, it appears, to confine us to a stereo experience and yet we're lured to multi-channel systems for which there is relatively little multi-channel music media. Of course I see the appeal of stereo receivers these days, since most music streaming is stereo. Seems Marantz almost has it right. Fit the receiver with a DAC, Airplay support, and sub/mains filters for a very compelling product. BTW, how's your new Marantz Pre-Pro working out for you. I've been thinking about supplementing my Sony TA-E/TA-P9000ES units with the Marantz model you bought, although so far, Airport Express and an OPPO-205 have precluded an absolute need for a more up to date Pre-Pro.

Thanks for your feedback. As always it's welcomed and appreciated.

Don't want to crash a party I'm not sure was for me, but you asked about a Marantz product and I think I'm the only one here who's admitted to actually buying one. LOL. So if that was meant for me, truth be told I love it. To my ears and level of experience and knowledge it works very well. To be clear I'm talking about my SR6013 AVR. IMO a very good surround setup, and plays really well in a stereo Soundstage for music. Streamed or CD. Clearly I'm no expert but this is not my first AVR so I do have some experience.

If you weren't talking to me, or meant a different Marantz item just laugh off my "review" and we can both wait for the proper reply. Ha.!

 

[Pogre]

Thanks for your feedback. As always it's welcomed and appreciated.

Don't want to crash a party I'm not sure was for me, but you asked about a Marantz product and I think I'm the only one here who's admitted to actually buying one. LOL. So if that was meant for me, truth be told I love it. To my ears and level of experience and knowledge it works very well. To be clear I'm talking about my SR6013 AVR. IMO a very good surround setup, and plays really well in a stereo Soundstage for music. Streamed or CD. Clearly I'm no expert but this is not my first AVR so I do have some experience.

If you weren't talking to me, or meant a different Marantz item just laugh off my "review" and we can both wait for the proper reply. Ha.!

The SR6013 is a very nice receiver. I have the SR6011 and I really like it. I think I commented on that in your other thread.

 

[IansDad88(Don)]

A few wordy replies and I did do some skimming, but I strongly second something with bass management as opposed to just a sub out. I thought Kew gave a pretty good explanation.

Good bass management will limit the bass at whichever low frequency you choose for your speakers (high pass filter) for a cutoff and hands off (smoothly) to your subwoofer. The sub picks up where your speakers leave off (again, your choice tho most would recommend a starting point of 80 hz). Limiting the higher energy low frequencies your main speakers play will be easier on your amp and IME I think they sound cleaner and can play louder without distortion.

Thanks Brother...

Looks like this is my best option, I just wish I knew better some actual pieces that fit these parameters. And as I stated in my several TLDRs I do like my Marantz but I'm not going to ignore proper recommendations.

I see a few actual products listed on new posts so I'm still catching up from last night.

Just a side thought FYI... I'm learning more about the features of this specific forum. Possibly explains some of the wordy context. While I admit up front to what I don't know, very often a reply or two goes do far above my head or changes direction as this one did (for the better (re: bass mgt).) and than the thread expands or splits. I really appreciate the input too. But much I think stems from my poor original premise.

Like this case. LOL. I did get a few direct responses to the original query. How to get a sub onto an amp with no pre out for it. At lest I think I did. But there are other considerations I guess I hadn't taken jnto account in my lack of knowledge. I honestly thought if my speaker is rated 38-20k, I just set the sub to 60 and "ta da!" sounds just fine to me. But even that simple and apparently "way wrong" approach left me confounded when I started reading up on 2 channel amps. Because obviously none had a sub pre out.

Just between you and me, I'm still disappointed I can't plug the seemingly versatile ND8006 into the 2 CH 7025, and then from there go a pair of speakers and a sub. But meh I guess.... Now I just want to learn and understand more about why. And find the most appropriate alternative of course.

Thanks again.!

 

[IansDad88(Don)]

The SR6013 is a very nice receiver. I have the SR6011 and I really like it. I think I commented on that in your other thread.

You did sir, and it helped redeem some of my self respect in making at least one good decision..!

I'm very happy with it. And it really does work well with my Klipsch setup.

 

[IansDad88(Don)]

There is the Outlaw rr 2160 I mentioned earlier, and the Yamaha rn803, and the Onkyo 8270. Pretty sure all these have proper bass management settings that include HPF for the mains and LPF for the sub.
There is also an Integra equivalent to the Onkyo, but I don't remember the model number on it.

I'll start looking at these and the other items mentioned...

I like this post because it throws me a bone with actual components I can look up and trying learning more on my own in conjunction with the thread.

Thanks Boss!

 

[IansDad88(Don)]

Ok Don, lets start fresh .........

Assuming you go with the Marantz 2 ch amp, you will need some form of pre amplification in front of it, whether it be a stand alone preamp or a receiver that offers 'pre-outs' (usually RCA jacks) that you would connect it to the inputs of your amp.

Now , I think you mentioned you had a 'powered sub' correct ? Assuming as such the easy connection is that via LFE option on the back of your sub. As I mentioned in my earlier post I do this for my sub from the additional 'main outs' that I have on my preamp.

So, in summation if you go with a separate 2 ch 'amp' you will need either a preamp/linestage or capable AVR/Receiver in front of it.

Thanks for the reset, and the info. I'll certainly try this if the situation materializes..!

And yeah, powered Klipsh 12. Nothing fancy, and just your basic Volume/Crossover and Phase settings.

 

[Pogre]

Thanks Brother...

Looks like this is my best option, I just wish I knew better some actual pieces that fit these parameters. And as I stated in my several TLDRs I do like my Marantz but I'm not going to ignore proper recommendations.

I see a few actual products listed on new posts so I'm still catching up from last night.

Just a side thought FYI... I'm learning more about the features of this specific forum. Possibly explains some of the wordy context. While I admit up front to what I don't know, very often a reply or two goes do far above my head or changes direction as this one did (for the better (re: bass mgt).) and than the thread expands or splits. I really appreciate the input too. But much I think stems from my poor original premise.

Like this case. LOL. I did get a few direct responses to the original query. How to get a sub onto an amp with no pre out for it. At lest I think I did. But there are other considerations I guess I hadn't taken jnto account in my lack of knowledge. I honestly thought if my speaker is rated 38-20k, I just set the sub to 60 and "ta da!" sounds just fine to me. But even that simple and apparently "way wrong" approach left me confounded when I started reading up on 2 channel amps. Because obviously none had a sub pre out.

Just between you and me, I'm still disappointed I can't plug the seemingly versatile ND8006 into the 2 CH 7025, and then from there go a pair of speakers and a sub. But meh I guess.... Now I just want to learn and understand more about why. And find the most appropriate alternative of course.

Thanks again.!

I wouldn't say it's a "way wrong" approach and you could even achieve satisfactory results, but bass management allows you to really dial it in and creates a crossover for you.

It's confusing and intimidating. I'm no expert either and am still learning new stuff all the time. What I've gotten from posting here is that while you want competent electronics (pre, amp and/or or receiver) to power your speakers they probably play the smallest role when it comes down to what you actually hear. Any improvements or upgrade in sound quality will best be achieved from the speakers and your room acoustics. I really think a good AVR can serve just as well for 2 ch stereo listening as a dedicated 2 channel setup.

 

[IansDad88(Don)]

I do think that's part of my learning disability here. Meaning, I listen to the moderately underpowered Onkyo, and it's just a bit limited in power, and frankly the features are kinda weak. And it cost like $200. But it sounds almost like I want just with the sub plugged in and the sub x-over set to 60.

So I start thinking, why not get a decent piece, and a nice 2 channel amp. I see that ND8006 on the internet and think this is way cool. And because my $200 amp and the sub sound half decent I think in my head this must be better.

But suddenly it turns out that the first thing that happened (and not complaining, I need to, WANT to know this stuff) is that everyone starts educating me on the dangers and issues of not having LP x-over control. Then I even had some HP x-over input. And this is all good, and I'm getting it, but I'm bummed there's no easy way to use the thing I thought I liked.

Could we maybe learn me something new a different way as well? I'm not discounting all the valuable info. But I just had a thought I'd like to have answered if possible.

Assuming companies make components meant to work together, can you tell me how that ND8006 is supposed to be set up and used. Now I'm curious about a whole new angle of this process. Forget about the "Ohh that looks cool, I want one...". Instead I wonder. Well, just how the hell does this this supposed to work.

There's more than one way to learn something. I mean if I walked into Best Buy and had that thought I might walk out having bought it. Thinking it was a good fit. That's the advantage of having people willing to donate time and knowledge. One can come here and save a lot of time, money and headache.

I'm the simplest basic terms possible, explaining to a child, I'm really curious about how that thing is supposed to be used.

BTW, I'm researching AVRs and thinking about a way to connect a display. So I'm not trying to stomp this dead thread, but if it seems that way, don't answer. I'll live. Somehow. . I just really, really hate not understanding something. And I don't mean the math or perfection of bass management. Just about how these pieces are meant to go cause it's clearly not what I thought.