Stereo amplifier for DALI Opticon 6

[PENG]

Me: If I already have SR6011 and Dali Zensor 7, is that enough for a good audio quality listening?

Marantz: While the SR6011 will give clean enough results with your speakers in terms of general quality, the receiver will not be able to give the same kind of dynamic performance that you would get from the PM amplifiers.

The PM amplifier will provide better performance, however it would not be £1000 of a difference in quality between the two products.

The best advice I can give is to consult with a retailer who will be able to demo the equipment for you so you can listen to it and trust your own ears.

Sincerely,
Marantz Customer Support

Hope so you will not blame me, at least no very greatly for my desire
And till now my only option for the stereo amplifier is Lyngdorf TDAI-2170.

Again, I keep very much to thank you all for all yours help&advices!

Hope so, this time i could explain better than till now.

Best regards.

The reply from Marantz is as expected as they want to sell the PM series for the much higher profit margin. From what we know so far from your posts:

Listening habit and environment - small to medium size room, mostly listening at lower SPL (sound pressure level)

Equipment preference - Always want an integrated amp for music listening
Influence - Probably by subjective reviews online, forum talks, manufacturer customer supports etc.
Subwoofer experience - Not good, but the sub tried was a bass reflex type made by Dali.

Now look at some facts:

Listening at low SPL means more power will not likely change anything because the speakers will not be taking much power to begin with, unless and until you crank the volume right up.

Customer support is not the best place to ask the kind of questions you are asking. Think about it, what do you expect them to say other than telling your they have better components and specs and should therefore sound better? Actually they could have told you that for 2 channel listening, the SR6011 can provide much more power than the PM6005 or even the PM8005. The PM8005 is only rated 100W into 4 ohms. On the test bench it could probably do a little more, say 135-140W. It is at least limited by the smaller power supply that is designed for 2 channels. They will not be more dynamic than the more powerful SR6011 in two channel stereo, otherwise it would defy science.

I copied the comparison table of bench test data (all by Sound and Vision) that I posted on another thread, you can see that the SR6006, the predecessor of your SR6011, was benched tested to 157W X2 at 0.1% THD, at 1% THD it was able to produce almost 200WX2.

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/marantz-sr6006-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures#zoZE7CwGCTLjp8Ku.97

Regarding your not so good experience with the subwoofer, you might have made some common mistake in setting it up with Audyssey. If you are to try again please do the following:

- read the instruction of the sub so you know how to bypass all internal bass management features of the sub such as setting the crossover to maximum, and disable all filters if possible, and if not, set them to points where such built in filters will do the minimum. This is to avoid those features to interfere with Audyssey.

- read Audyssey's online instructions and follow Marantz onscreen instruction, to the letter, when running it through all 8 positions.

That Dali subwoofer you had tried before was a bass reflex type, you will likely find the sealed type such as the low budget SVS SB1000's sound tighter and more musical.

The integrated amp you are thinking of buying will not give you more power than the SR6011 for 2 channel applications. In a "blind" test, I am quite sure most people will not be able to tell the difference between it and the SR6011 if the comparison test is setup properly. However, if you always wanted an integrated amp, I will say this again, go for it. I have all kinds of preamp, prepro and power amps and I like them all, though I cannot honestly tell people that one sounds better than the other.

My final recommendation is, go get your dream integrated amp but do not give up on the SR6011, it is a very capable mid range AVR that is very capable of improving your in room bass response. It has a very good DAC build in and can play just about anything in digital including DSD files.

 

[whiplash]

The reply from Marantz is as expected as they want to sell the PM series for the much higher profit margin. From what we know so far from your posts:

Listening habit and environment - small to medium size room, mostly listening at lower SPL (sound pressure level)

Equipment preference - Always want an integrated amp for music listening
Influence - Probably by subjective reviews online, forum talks, manufacturer customer supports etc.
Subwoofer experience - Not good, but the sub tried was a bass reflex type made by Dali.

Now look at some facts:

Listening at low SPL means more power will not likely change anything because the speakers will not be taking much power to begin with, unless and until you crank the volume right up.

Customer support is not the best place to ask the kind of questions you are asking. Think about it, what do you expect them to say other than telling your they have better components and specs and should therefore sound better? Actually they could have told you that for 2 channel listening, the SR6011 can provide much more power than the PM6005 or even the PM8005. The PM8005 is only rated 100W into 4 ohms. On the test bench it could probably do a little more, say 135-140W. It is at least limited by the smaller power supply that is designed for 2 channels. They will not be more dynamic than the more powerful SR6011 in two channel stereo, otherwise it would defy science.

I copied the comparison table of bench test data (all by Sound and Vision) that I posted on another thread, you can see that the SR6006, the predecessor of your SR6011, was benched tested to 157W X2 at 0.1% THD, at 1% THD it was able to produce almost 200WX2.

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/marantz-sr6006-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures#zoZE7CwGCTLjp8Ku.97

Regarding your not so good experience with the subwoofer, you might have made some common mistake in setting it up with Audyssey. If you are to try again please do the following:

- read the instruction of the sub so you know how to bypass all internal bass management features of the sub such as setting the crossover to maximum, and disable all filters if possible, and if not, set them to points where such built in filters will do the minimum. This is to avoid those features to interfere with Audyssey.

- read Audyssey's online instructions and follow Marantz onscreen instruction, to the letter, when running it through all 8 positions.

That Dali subwoofer you had tried before was a bass reflex type, you will likely find the sealed type such as the low budget SVS SB1000's sound tighter and more musical.

The integrated amp you are thinking of buying will not give you more power than the SR6011 for 2 channel applications. In a "blind" test, I am quite sure most people will not be able to tell the difference between it and the SR6011 if the comparison test is setup properly. However, if you always wanted an integrated amp, I will say this again, go for it. I have all kinds of preamp, prepro and power amps and I like them all, though I cannot honestly tell people that one sounds better than the other.

My final recommendation is, go get your dream integrated amp but do not give up on the SR6011, it is a very capable mid range AVR that is very capable of improving your in room bass response. It has a very good DAC build in and can play just about anything in digital including DSD files.

I did said that: "And one more thing, MAYBE it's just marketing(to make they(Marantz) more money)"
And like you could saw not once i talked to buy an Marantz stereo amplifier, and now, after I read all the commentary of peoples who had Marantz on the link you gave me(soundandvision) I can tell you, I will never buy again Marantz or Denon, and that, just because I have the same opinion and same experience like that had with Marantz!
I will tell you more, if you find normal to have 5 shut down suddenly, more than 10 times when he lose the connection in streaming mode and to got freeze 3 times and the only think to do was to unplug him to can restart, that in less than one month, maybe, it's worth tu buy a Marantz SR6011 with $1500.

I even think to sell him and buy something else, not sure yet, maybe even to buy one such Anthem MRX-720 or Primare SPA23 and to do not buy an stereo amplifier.

For the sub you "show" me it's quit interesting , and if in the future i will go for a sub, sure I will take this one in consideration.

 

[MrBoat]

I cannot recommend anything other than the basics that have been suggested for me here that has worked. I feel bad for all the wasted used things so I tend to recycle those and put them back in use. It amazes me what people throw away because of a single advancement with a new trend. Especially since I only listen to music and not watch movies with surround sound.

I still manually EQ my sounds like I did 30 years ago, so I am the dinosaur. Part of the joy of this hobby for me is fiddling with the settings. I used to be around a lot of live music when I was younger so I know what a lot of these instruments sound like. Sometimes I match it so well by my ears, that I am afraid to have the automatic feature of the equipment mess it up and not be able to reset it without a lot of searching the equipment settings. The amp for the sub is connected to my PC. I may adjust the gain for the bass from one song to the next. Some songs have say, an amazing intro with drums and I want to emphasize that just for a moment. With the old equipment, that meant walking over to the graphic EQ and bumping up the low freq cntrols. This was a lot more interactive but I am used to it and I like this option.

What I like about the AVR is the option for bass management. This is new to me. A new toy. Provided the power source has enough power, the speakers contain the ranges necessary and do not distort, I can work with the rest to get from it what I need.

 

[gzubeck]

I did said that: "And one more thing, MAYBE it's just marketing(to make they(Marantz) more money)"
And like you could saw not once i talked to buy an Marantz stereo amplifier, and now, after I read all the commentary of peoples who had Marantz on the link you gave me(soundandvision) I can tell you, I will never buy again Marantz or Denon, and that, just because I have the same opinion and same experience like that had with Marantz!
I will tell you more, if you find normal to have 5 shut down suddenly, more than 10 times when he lose the connection in streaming mode and to got freeze 3 times and the only think to do was to unplug him to can restart, that in less than one month, maybe, it's worth tu buy a Marantz SR6011 with $1500.

I even think to sell him and buy something else, not sure yet, maybe even to buy one such Anthem MRX-720 or Primare SPA23 and to do not buy an stereo amplifier.

For the sub you "show" me it's quit interesting , and if in the future i will go for a sub, sure I will take this one in consideration.

If you are running your speakers in two channel mode most of the time maybe you can get by with just the 6011 amps. I owned the 5010 for a month and returned it because it went defective on me. I really like the hdams for the base but something went bad in one of the channels. I've owned anthem mca 50, owned numerous sony es amps, owned sony es receivers, but I must say the new emotiva a300 took it to an all new level. Most of the time your not going to use the power but what it gives you when running in lower volume mode is more detail. Also, I've looked at your specs on the dalis and you have 4 drivers in those beasts. not only will your base improve but your higher frequencies will sound cleaner while the transition between midrange to high will be more seamless. I would hook up an external amp to your preouts on your 6011 and let the 6011 amps fire your surround sound speakers. the other question i have is how many other speakers do you have hooked up to your system and are they full range or satellites. There is the law in physics that with multiple channels firing at the same time base will increase in the room.

 

[Pogre]

I did said that: "And one more thing, MAYBE it's just marketing(to make they(Marantz) more money)"
And like you could saw not once i talked to buy an Marantz stereo amplifier, and now, after I read all the commentary of peoples who had Marantz on the link you gave me(soundandvision) I can tell you, I will never buy again Marantz or Denon, and that, just because I have the same opinion and same experience like that had with Marantz!
I will tell you more, if you find normal to have 5 shut down suddenly, more than 10 times when he lose the connection in streaming mode and to got freeze 3 times and the only think to do was to unplug him to can restart, that in less than one month, maybe, it's worth tu buy a Marantz SR6011 with $1500.

I even think to sell him and buy something else, not sure yet, maybe even to buy one such Anthem MRX-720 or Primare SPA23 and to do not buy an stereo amplifier.

For the sub you "show" me it's quit interesting , and if in the future i will go for a sub, sure I will take this one in consideration.

You obviously already had your mind made up when you made your first post because you're ignoring some very good advice. You're about to spend a lot of money for very little or no improvement at all.

When I first came here I had my heart set on an amp. Instead I listened to all of the advice that was given to me and I now have a greatly improved sounding system... without buying an amp. The guys here really do know what they're talking about.

That being said, I get it. You have your heart set on an amp and no one is going to change your mind. Good luck with your new equipment.

 

[lovinthehd]

I think your English is far better than I am with the other languages you seem to have in your aresenal! A little hard to understand here and there but you're doing well...

Seems you're set on what you've already come here to do, so just do it. Buy the Lyngdorf if that's what you want. Finding someone on these forums that have that particular amp and speaker combo in a room like yours is to me more like looking for a needle in a haystack, let alone having much value as I don't think subjective descriptions are worth much.

Expectation bias is a powerful force in audio consumerism.

 

[whiplash]

You obviously already had your mind made up when you made your first post because you're ignoring some very good advice. You're about to spend a lot of money for very little or no improvement at all.

When I first came here I had my heart set on an amp. Instead I listened to all of the advice that was given to me and I now have a greatly improved sounding system... without buying an amp. The guys here really do know what they're talking about.

That being said, I get it. You have your heart set on an amp and no one is going to change your mind. Good luck with your new equipment.

That's really sound like, if i will not buy an sub some of you will keep saying I'm stubborn. I want to repeat 2 things. My topic was about an opinion of a good amp to match my speaker. And the second I was didn't come here if I wasn't sure I will find people with VERY GOOD experience in audio!
Before to join this forum, I was read a lots of review on audioholics.com and even on this forum.
Now, I said thousand of times, I simply DO NOT want a sub! Period. Read all the review about this speakers and "see" the sound without ANY sub add. And stop saying an AVR at $1500 is built for immersive audio!

Just to show you all, is a review from THIS site, made by Theo Nicolakis.

http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/anthem-mrx-520-720-1120-receivers-and-avm60-processor

"Every model (except the entry level 520 receiver) is likewise built for immersive audio."

So, this man, say, the Anthem MRX-520 is NOT likewise built for immersive audio, and he's price is $1,399.99, just the other 2 models, which is MRX-720 $2,499.99 and the other one is MRX-1120 $3,499.99, and some people still saying an AVR like mine at the same price like MRX-520 it's very good for music, if that AVR don't satisfy you, you must add a sub or buy another pair of speakers.

No offence, but got angry to heard the same thing, and just some people gave's me they opinion about an stereo amplifier. I can understand people want to don't spend money, but it's a must in my case if I want to have a good sound, it's impossible with this AVR.

 

[lovinthehd]

That's really sound like, if i will not buy an sub some of you will keep saying I'm stubborn. I want to repeat 2 things. My topic was about an opinion of a good amp to match my speaker. And the second I was didn't come here if I wasn't sure I will find people with VERY GOOD experience in audio!
Before to join this forum, I was read a lots of review on audioholics.com and even on this forum.
Now, I said thousand of times, I simply DO NOT want a sub! Period. Read all the review about this speakers and "see" the sound without ANY sub add. And stop saying an AVR at $1500 is built for immersive audio!

Just to show you all, is a review from THIS site, made by Theo Nicolakis.

http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/anthem-mrx-520-720-1120-receivers-and-avm60-processor

"Every model (except the entry level 520 receiver) is likewise built for immersive audio."

So, this man, say, the Anthem MRX-520 is NOT likewise built for immersive audio, and he's price is $1,399.99, just the other 2 models, which is MRX-720 $2,499.99 and the other one is MRX-1120 $3,499.99, and some people still saying an AVR like mine at the same price like MRX-520 it's very good for music, if that AVR don't satisfy you, you must add a sub or buy another pair of speakers.

No offence, but got angry to heard the same thing, and just some people gave's me they opinion about an stereo amplifier. I can understand people want to don't spend money, but it's a must in my case if I want to have a good sound, it's impossible with this AVR.

FWIW the term immersive audio is used for Atmos/Auro3D/DTS:X type technology/speaker arrangements.

The Marantz is a fine unit in any case. Anthem is a darling of the boutique crowd no doubt.

 

[whiplash]

FWIW the term immersive audio is used for Atmos/Auro3D/DTS:X type technology/speaker arrangements.

The Marantz is a fine unit in any case. Anthem is a darling of the boutique crowd no doubt.

Yeah, is a fine one, for movie only.

 

[whiplash]

I'm really curios how many of they who say an AVR like SR6011 is GOOD for music have in they main system an AVR to listening music, and that because they believe that, not for money reason.

 

[lovinthehd]

Yeah, is a fine one, for movie only.

You really do have a lot of assumptions in audio for someone so inexperienced....

 

[whiplash]

You really do have a lot of assumptions in audio for someone so inexperienced....

Or you work at Marantz, or you love Marantz Btw, if you want him so much, I can make you a good price

And was nearly like you said: you're too dumb in audio and you still talk.

 

[lovinthehd]

Or you work at Marantz, or you love Marantz Btw, if you want him so much, I can make you a good price

And was nearly like you said: you're too dumb in audio and you still talk.

So the true audiophool in you comes to the breaking point? You really do seem to have the need for someone to stamp the approval of what you want to do....which I've mentioned a few times now to just go ahead and do it! You're the one flapping gums now....

 

[Pogre]

Or you work at Marantz, or you love Marantz Btw, if you want him so much, I can make you a good price

And was nearly like you said: you're too dumb in audio and you still talk.

I don't know how you perceived some sort of insult, but there was no insult toward you. There certainly is no need for name calling and slagging off on the folks who are trying to help you out. This isn't that kind of forum.

 

[PENG]

I'm really curios how many of they who say an AVR like SR6011 is GOOD for music have in they main system an AVR to listening music, and that because they believe that, not for money reason.

May be you can ask this question in a new thread, but I can tell you now I am one of those who are using an AVR (a 10 years old Denon) for serious stereo music enjoyment. I do have 3 other systems that I use for stereo but the other 3 are powered by separate components (preamp/power amp). They all sound good, and the sound quality is determine mostly by the quality of the source and the speakers, the preamp/amp and avr makes very little difference, if any.

As far as I know, forum member 3dB also use his AVRs for music, he even use it with his turntable. Another member, ADTG had also used a Denon AVR, the 33XX series that is very comparable to the SR6011 to power his high end speakers including his 4 ohm Phiharmonic speakers and also his B&W 802 Diamond if I remember right. I am sure there are others. Like me, he also own separate components that cost much more, but for other reasons.

In my experience, it is quite common to see beginners of this hobby fixated on more expensive preamps/amps and don't believe in AVRs. I used to be like that myself but I would have done better if there was online help back then, I am talking many years ago when I relied on dealer talks and magazines subjective reviews.

A lot of people, again including myself, eventually realize it is the speakers, the room, and the source material that really determines the overall sound quality, not how expensive the preamp and amps are. I may still trade in one or more of my amps eventually for more up to date ones, but sound quality will not be the reason as I am already getting excellent sound quality.

 

[PENG]

And like you could saw not once i talked to buy an Marantz stereo amplifier, and now, after I read all the commentary of peoples who had Marantz on the link you gave me(soundandvision) I can tell you, I will never buy again Marantz or Denon, and that, just because I have the same opinion and same experience like that had with Marantz!

I did not suggest you buy a Marantz amp, I suggested you go get the Lyngdorf TDAI-2170 that apparently is the dream amp you wanted to buy in the first place.

 

[whiplash]

Well, the bottom line is, I'd always thank to the people for their advice/help. But, in the same time it's equally very true, after 5 pages of replays, I didn't got almost no answers to my questions. A few peoples and I thank them, suggest me some integrate amplifier, almost nobody said a word about my speakers, even if I asked your opinion, just you must changed if you're not satisfied about the sound, and nobody said a word about my 2 options regarding the integrate amplifier Hegel H160 and Lyngdorf TDAI-2170 and I asked too, your opinion regarding class D amplifier.

So that's it. Thank you all.

 

[whiplash]

May be you can ask this question in a new thread, but I can tell you now I am one of those who are using an AVR (a 10 years old Denon) for serious stereo music enjoyment.

I considered your suggestion and I opened a new topic about that. Hoping that will clarify once for ever the situation.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/stereo-amps-vs-avrs.106515/

 

[lovinthehd]

I considered your suggestion and I opened a new topic about that. Hoping that will clarify once for ever the situation.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/stereo-amps-vs-avrs.106515/

Yeah thats never been asked.....good luck!

 

[PENG]

almost nobody said a word about my speakers, even if I asked your opinion, just you must changed if you're not satisfied about the sound, and nobody said a word about my 2 options regarding the integrate amplifier Hegel H160 and Lyngdorf TDAI-2170 and I asked too, your opinion regarding class D amplifier.

So that's it. Thank you all.

That's not correct, but at least you said "almost nobody".... I know at least I commented on your Opticon 6, as well as the Hegel and Lyngdorf amps, and someone else definitely commented on Class D as well.

I don't mind repeating, base on specs and reviews (I ignore the subjective parts) your speakers seem fine from 80-20,000 or higher but can use some help in the 25-100 Hz range if you listen mostly classical music, and/or use them for watching movies. I do not believe they are hard to drive at all, relatively speaking.

The H160 has very good review, but not surprisingly, those subjective reviews included borderline on silly comments, something like "..... when compared with my $X0,000 reference XYZ amp, the H160 is not as blablablab...., in other words, it sounds great in its own price range, perhaps twice that, but if you pay more you still get better sound etc... , really bloody typical, and there is no end to to this!! Yet it seems like those reviews, along with advertisements managed to convince so many people to think that while a $5,000 amp sounds great but a $25,000 amp must sound better otherwise why would anyone spend that kind of money etc. etc.....

I do think the H160 and even the H80 are very well made amplifiers and would considering buying one if I do not have several external DAC and amplifiers already. They come with build in DAC but in terms of specs, not that impressive at all, the 6011 can actually do more, unless you plays music on from computers. They both sound good, but just like most other amps that are designed to be accurate and neutral, nothing special about it. Obviously, the dealer I went to had his own opinions.

I have not listened to the Lyngdorf amp that you are considering, but base on published specs, I see no evidence of that thing being capable of producing more power than your 6011 in two channel stereo. According to Lyngdorf, they designed the amp to sound accurate/neutral so if they are honest, then they should sound just like your SR6011, in a volume matched blind test of course. I am willing to bet for stereo use, the 6011 will have better bass management. Any power capability (including dynamic power) difference between the two are not significant enough to make a noticeable difference. Again, to be clear I have not heard it, but as an engineer, I am used to making reasonable assumptions and assessments based on specs and test data when the subjects being considered are not rocket science, just basic and mature technology stuff.