Stereo amplifier for DALI Opticon 6

W

whiplash

Junior Audioholic
Thank you all for the help. I think i must go and test some stereo amplifiers integrate and see what will give out. But one more thing, you guys, you think this speakers(DALI Opticon 6) "deserves" an expensive amplifier(about $2500-3000)? I mean i will have, speaking in percentages, at least 40% more quality sound? Cause if i will go for one. I ask that, cause I'm pretty sure, once to audience will be a think, cause of acoustic treatment of the room, and once back to my home will be another thing :)

Best regards.
 
everettT

everettT

Audioholic Ninja
Thank you all for the help. I think i must go and test some stereo amplifiers integrate and see what will give out. But one more thing, you guys, you think this speakers(DALI Opticon 6) "deserves" an expensive amplifier(about $2500-3000)? I mean i will have, speaking in percentages, at least 40% more quality sound? Cause if i will go for one. I ask that, cause I'm pretty sure, once to audience will be a think, cause of acoustic treatment of the room, and once back to my home will be another thing :)

Best regards.
I wouldn't spend more than half the cost of the speakers for amplification. Ill definitely concur others in that the speakers are the meat and patatoes of the system, then your room. If your room has little issue, then SQ of the speakers is all that's left to change.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Can you please explain me with more details your settings to can try with yours to see the difference?
Now in Audissey i have this:

MultEQ XT32:Reference
Dynamic EQ: On
-Reference Level Offset 0 dB
and the rest Dynamic Volume and LFC i turned off.
The above setting is fine, if you want good sound at low listening level, make sure:

1) Dynamic EQ - Leave it on all the time.
2) Ref level offset - 5 dB for classical is good, but you can try 0 also in case you like to have more bass.
3) Dynamic volume and LFC - Turn those OFF at all time if high fidelity is your goal.

If you mainly listen at low level, I assume your volume dial will be mostly between -30 and -15. In that case your SR6011 should be good enough. To be on the safe side and to allow you to occasionally listen at much higher level, you can just add a two channel power amplifier. Anything that is specified for 200W into 8 ohms and 300W into 4 ohms will be fine. Being in Europe, you can probably get something like Cambridge Audio for a reasonable price.

https://www.cambridgeaudio.com/products/851/851w

You can spend much more on the Hegel H30, but will not get any better sound quality.
 
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W

whiplash

Junior Audioholic
The above setting is fine, if you want good sound at low listening level, make sure:

1) Dynamic EQ - Leave it on all the time.
2) Ref level offset - 5 dB for classical is good, but you can try 0 also in case you like to have more bass.
3) Dynamic volume and LFC - Turn those OFF at all time if high fidelity is your goal.

If you mainly listen at low level, I assume your volume dial will be mostly between -30 and -15. In that case your SR7011 should be good enough. To be on the safe side and to allow you to occasionally listen at much higher level, you can just add a two channel power amplifier. Anything that is specified for 200W into 8 ohms and 300W into 4 ohms will be fine. Being in Europe, you can probably get something like Cambridge Audio for a reasonable price.

https://www.cambridgeaudio.com/products/851/851w

You can spend much more on the Hegel H30, but will not get any better sound quality.
Thank you very much for yours explain. And I have SR6011(maybe u pressed wrong key, just wanted to be sure you didn't look at the wrong AVR). Yes, my goal is to have high fidelity sound and yes, mainly listen at low level, and the goal is to have SAME details/clarity(when i listen at high volume i find i can make a difference between all the instrument and voice much better like at low volume) what i have to high volume. In any case my goal is not to have more power, cause i think that do a power amplifier. For that i asked if a stereo integrate amplifier will do a good difference, I'm most attracted by Lyngdorf TDAI-2170 which is an class D and hegel H160 which is an class A/B. I choice this 2 for many reason, Lyngdorf is made by the same manufacture like my speakers DALI Opticon 6, he have possibility to connect subwoofers(even 2), have RoomPerfect is like Audissey, and both have possibility for streaming(which i think with TIDAL at high end quality of sound do a great job), both have good DAC even if I have a good one too, Oppo UDP-203, and after all reviews both have extraordinary sound. For that I said, if sound quality with one like that will improve with at least 40% i will be very happy.

Now about the settings for SR6011, if you can explain me 2 things. First the difference between L/R Bypass and Flat is, in Bypass the sound will be let like he was record and with Flat the AVR will process the sound and will make something like: all the instrument will sound more flat(insipid/plain/smooth)?
And second one, i find in the menu besides Stereo mode for music, Direct and Pure Direct, can you explain me that empirically please?:) You can explain me all empirically cause sure i will understand better, first cause I'm a newbie and second cause I'm not natif english speaker.

Thank you in advance!

Best regards,

George.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Thank you very much for yours explain. And I have SR6011(maybe u pressed wrong key, just wanted to be sure you didn't look at the wrong AVR). Yes, my goal is to have high fidelity sound and yes, mainly listen at low level, and the goal is to have SAME details/clarity(when i listen at high volume i find i can make a difference between all the instrument and voice much better like at low volume) what i have to high volume. In any case my goal is not to have more power, cause i think that do a power amplifier. For that i asked if a stereo integrate amplifier will do a good difference, I'm most attracted by Lyngdorf TDAI-2170 which is an class D and hegel H160 which is an class A/B. I choice this 2 for many reason, Lyngdorf is made by the same manufacture like my speakers DALI Opticon 6, he have possibility to connect subwoofers(even 2), have RoomPerfect is like Audissey, and both have possibility for streaming(which i think with TIDAL at high end quality of sound do a great job), both have good DAC even if I have a good one too, Oppo UDP-203, and after all reviews both have extraordinary sound. For that I said, if sound quality with one like that will improve with at least 40% i will be very happy.

Now about the settings for SR6011, if you can explain me 2 things. First the difference between L/R Bypass and Flat is, in Bypass the sound will be let like he was record and with Flat the AVR will process the sound and will make something like: all the instrument will sound more flat(insipid/plain/smooth)?
And second one, i find in the menu besides Stereo mode for music, Direct and Pure Direct, can you explain me that empirically please?:) You can explain me all empirically cause sure i will understand better, first cause I'm a newbie and second cause I'm not natif english speaker.

Thank you in advance!

Best regards,

George.
Sorry I made a typo, I actually meant to type SR6011. Regarding your 2 questions:

1) Audyssey L/R bypass

lovinthhd did explain that in post#37. In that selection, Audyssey will not have any effects on the left and right channel, but will still equalize the remaining channels including the subwoofer channel. It does not mean the sound will become more flat. How "flat" the sound will be, depends on your room, your speakers and other factors. For example, if your room interacts with your L/R speakers in a way that results a peak or dip in the frequency range between say 250 and 350 Hz, with L/R bypass selected, Audyssey will not do anything to minimize that peak or dip. If you set Audyssey to reference or flat, then Audyssey will try to make necessary correction to reduce that peak or dip.

Flat is only recommended for smaller rooms, reference means Audyssey will try to follow a target frequency response curve. Please read the article (by Dr. Chris Kyriakakis) linked below:

https://audyssey.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/212347723-MultEQ-Target-Curves

2) Stereo/Direct/Pure Direct

Please read pag 140 and 145 in the instruction manual.
http://us.marantz.com/DocumentMaster/US/mz_SR6011_om_u_en_v00A.pdf

It basically tells you that in Direct and Pure Direct sound modes, the following items cannot be adjusted (actually, it means those features will be disabled).

- Tone
- M-DAX
- MultEQ XT32
- Dynamic EQ
- Dynamic Volume
- Graphic EQ

In Pure Direct mode, analog video circuit and even the main unit display are turned off.
 
W

whiplash

Junior Audioholic
But I still can't get one think, on my Marantz where is set Reference to MultEQ XT32 is optimised for movies, they say, in Flat mode is for small rooms or very well acoustically treated(mine have about 100 feet square), left L/R Bypass where L/R speakers will not get any process and Off, so my question is which one is for stereo music than?
 
W

whiplash

Junior Audioholic
I hope you don't believe in everything in that article.
Well, it's hard to not, cause otherwise I can't explain how an AVR cost for example $1500 like mine, and he "do" surround + stereo + video upscaling + streaming + calibration and a simple integrate amplifier it's at the same budget with less power of amplification? And how do they some profit than?

For me it's clear an AVR with X price can't do the same thing with like a integrate amplifier with the same price, maybe not even like an integrate amplifier with X/2 price.

Because in the end, it's all about money!
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Well, it's hard to not, cause otherwise I can't explain how an AVR cost for example $1500 like mine, and he "do" surround + stereo + video upscaling + streaming + calibration and a simple integrate amplifier it's at the same budget with less power of amplification? And how do they some profit than?

For me it's clear an AVR with X price can't do the same thing with like a integrate amplifier with the same price, maybe not even like an integrate amplifier with X/2 price.

Because in the end, it's all about money!
Mostly because there are a lot more avrs sold than integrated amps, simple economies of scale. You pay more for the equivalent 2ch gear, due to the lower volumes and high costs of distribution/logistics, middlemen, buying reviewers' articles, that sort of thing :)

Those hifihunter articles I didn't even get thru the first three bullet points in the first article before vomiting a little in my mouth.

Audyssey Flat aims for a resultant flat frequency response; Audyssey Reference applies a roll-off on the higher frequencies; Bypass L/R as Marantz says in the manual "Selects the reference setting, but bypasses MultEQ® XT32 on the front left and right speakers".

As to what is best in stereo playback mode, it's entirely preference.

I think one thing many people try to do in general is use the same settings for all uses and that's not ideal for all sources....
 
W

whiplash

Junior Audioholic
Mostly because there are a lot more avrs sold than integrated amps, simple economies of scale. You pay more for the equivalent 2ch gear, due to the lower volumes and high costs of distribution/logistics, middlemen, buying reviewers' articles, that sort of thing :)

Those hifihunter articles I didn't even get thru the first three bullet points in the first article before vomiting a little in my mouth.

Audyssey Flat aims for a resultant flat frequency response; Audyssey Reference applies a roll-off on the higher frequencies; Bypass L/R as Marantz says in the manual "Selects the reference setting, but bypasses MultEQ® XT32 on the front left and right speakers".

As to what is best in stereo playback mode, it's entirely preference.

I think one thing many people try to do in general is use the same settings for all uses and that's not ideal for all sources....
About the review, and it's not the only one, even on forums people talk, everyone think what they want, but I can ask you one thing, why than the audiophiles don't use AVR for stereo? Or at least AV?
Cause I think a audiophile can "hear" if it's or not difference between AVR and stereo, you can trick an audiophile I mean. We can argue with this subject long time, but I am a person who works in management field and i had the opportunity to see things, and I can assure you, for all producers, the slogan is: "We must make money!". So what you said, are more AVRs sold it's not a reason credible.


No offence!
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
About the review, and it's not the only one, even on forums people talk, everyone think what they want, but I can ask you one thing, why than the audiophiles don't use AVR for stereo? Or at least AV?
Cause I think a audiophile can "hear" if it's or not difference between AVR and stereo, you can trick an audiophile I mean. We can argue with this subject long time, but I am a person who works in management field and i had the opportunity to see things, and I can assure you, for all producers, the slogan is: "We must make money!". So what you said, are more AVRs sold it's not a reason credible.


No offence!
I'd say an audiophile is not what you think it is....it's more a consuming skill than any kind of hearing skill. The definition is actually anyone enthusiastic about hifi audio reproduction, so if you're here on AH I'd say you're usually an audiophile on that basis alone.

I've used avrs for my main music playback for quite a while; I still have 2ch gear in some spare rooms setup but not compelling for my main rooms (living room, bedroom, workshop) due to lack of several useful features, not because of sound quality. Some consider Marantz units to be particularly catering to those who think "music" is a completely different branch of audio reproduction compared to that intended for both music and movie soundtracks, something Marantz advertising caters to as when D+M bought the somewhat audiophile oriented brand out, they feel its still a marketing advantage. Why did you buy the Marantz unit instead of the equivalent Denon? Reviews? The HDAM circuits?

You can definitely trick audiophiles....look at all the silly high end cables, cable lifters, dac units, high end optical disc readers, huge differences in amps marketed year to year (for the last how many years has each high end amp supposedly vastly improved from the previous years?), (won't even touch on the vinyl silliness today) etc. Europe may be a slightly different landscape in terms of what dominates sales but I'm pretty sure avr volume worldwide far exceeds that of 2ch gear these days, which will give it economic advantages for pricing (and logistics, marketing, etc). Self professed and supposedly superior audiophiles who act as corrupt reviewers....meh, they belong in the same prison camp as the cable charlatans.

When I was a younger man we all used to say an integrated amp was a cheap alternative to separates; a receiver after all is only a glorified integrated amp. :) I had (and still have some) separates until avrs could combine my love of music and movies together with equivalent performance. YMMV.

Spending more on your electronics than speakers? That's not a good plan IMO, I'd be shopping for better speakers. Buy yourself a little Lepai integrated amp and see just how big a difference between that and a Hegel....is the quality 150x greater with the Hegel based on price alone? I'm not sure how you would get 40% higher quality with what you're proposing with your current speakers...maybe a percent or two. The point of diminishing returns sets in fairly early with electronics IMO.
 
W

whiplash

Junior Audioholic
I'd say an audiophile is not what you think it is....it's more a consuming skill than any kind of hearing skill. The definition is actually anyone enthusiastic about hifi audio reproduction, so if you're here on AH I'd say you're usually an audiophile on that basis alone.

I've used avrs for my main music playback for quite a while; I still have 2ch gear in some spare rooms setup but not compelling for my main rooms (living room, bedroom, workshop) due to lack of several useful features, not because of sound quality. Some consider Marantz units to be particularly catering to those who think "music" is a completely different branch of audio reproduction compared to that intended for both music and movie soundtracks, something Marantz advertising caters to as when D+M bought the somewhat audiophile oriented brand out, they feel its still a marketing advantage. Why did you buy the Marantz unit instead of the equivalent Denon? Reviews? The HDAM circuits?

You can definitely trick audiophiles....look at all the silly high end cables, cable lifters, dac units, high end optical disc readers, huge differences in amps marketed year to year (for the last how many years has each high end amp supposedly vastly improved from the previous years?), (won't even touch on the vinyl silliness today) etc. Europe may be a slightly different landscape in terms of what dominates sales but I'm pretty sure avr volume worldwide far exceeds that of 2ch gear these days, which will give it economic advantages for pricing (and logistics, marketing, etc). Self professed and supposedly superior audiophiles who act as corrupt reviewers....meh, they belong in the same prison camp as the cable charlatans.

When I was a younger man we all used to say an integrated amp was a cheap alternative to separates; a receiver after all is only a glorified integrated amp. :) I had (and still have some) separates until avrs could combine my love of music and movies together with equivalent performance. YMMV.

Spending more on your electronics than speakers? That's not a good plan IMO, I'd be shopping for better speakers. Buy yourself a little Lepai integrated amp and see just how big a difference between that and a Hegel....is the quality 150x greater with the Hegel based on price alone? I'm not sure how you would get 40% higher quality with what you're proposing with your current speakers...maybe a percent or two. The point of diminishing returns sets in fairly early with electronics IMO.

You have right, I bought Marantz for HDAM :)

In other words you are saying my speakers sux. And it's not first time when you shall remember them :) Did you even ou listening this speakers? Or based on what you say that about this speakers? It's was they cost, about $1900, and just to know, many people chose this speakers instead of: Tannoy XTF6/8, or B&W CM8 S2, KEF R500, I already said that. I'm really curios how you arrived to that conclusion, because they cost "just" $1900?:)

Regards.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Overlord
Is physically moving the subwoofer is an option for you? It's more than likely than your sub is still not well integrated with mains and as TLS (Mark) mentioned above - god knows f3 of 49hz you DO need help of sub. Remember what Mark said - a) Speakers first b) Speakers and room integration is second
Any additional electronics pass your existing 6011 avr will be mostly very little to no actual improvement (not discussing placebo here - as in "it's so expensive - it must be better")

Read these:
http://www.audioholics.com/home-theater-connection/crawling-for-bass-subwoofer-placement
http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-setup/basic-subwoofer-setup
http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-setup/easy-subwoofer-placement
http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-setup/bass-management-basics-2013-settings-made-simple
http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-setup/apply-bass-management
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
You have right, I bought Marantz for HDAM :)

In other words you are saying my speakers sux. And it's not first time when you shall remember them :) Did you even ou listening this speakers? Or based on what you say that about this speakers? It's was they cost, about $1900, and just to know, many people chose this speakers instead of: Tannoy XTF6/8, or B&W CM8 S2, KEF R500, I already said that. I'm really curios how you arrived to that conclusion, because they cost "just" $1900?:)

Regards.
Not what I said. I've never heard your speakers nor am I likely to in the near future. I'm saying that if you're dissatisfied with the sound then you'd gain more by changing speakers than electronics for that reason. You'd gain more by improving the room acoustics. Electronics a distant third. If anything a better idea to me is to spend your money on some nice content and not worry so much about the gear....
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Warlord
About the review, and it's not the only one, even on forums people talk, everyone think what they want, but I can ask you one thing, why than the audiophiles don't use AVR for stereo? Or at least AV?
Cause I think a audiophile can "hear" if it's or not difference between AVR and stereo, you can trick an audiophile I mean. We can argue with this subject long time, but I am a person who works in management field and i had the opportunity to see things, and I can assure you, for all producers, the slogan is: "We must make money!". So what you said, are more AVRs sold it's not a reason credible.


No offence!
I was under the impression that you came to this forum to get some experienced opinions?
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
About the review, and it's not the only one, even on forums people talk, everyone think what they want, but I can ask you one thing, why than the audiophiles don't use AVR for stereo? Or at least AV?
Cause I think a audiophile can "hear" if it's or not difference between AVR and stereo, you can trick an audiophile I mean. We can argue with this subject long time, but I am a person who works in management field and i had the opportunity to see things, and I can assure you, for all producers, the slogan is: "We must make money!". So what you said, are more AVRs sold it's not a reason credible.


No offence!
Many of us on this forum do own separate prepros, preamps, power amps, integrated amps and AVRs, but for various reasons. Some of us, have AB compared our AVR(s) with our much more expensive separate components and found very little difference in terms of audible sound quality difference for normal use. Some also reported night and day kind of difference between their AVR and even low budget integrated amp, so there is no consensus as such if you focus on subjective reviews/reports only.

The so called high end separate components cost more, sometime a lot more because of many reasons, including but not limited to the following:

- Economy of scale, yes it is about money/profit, but if you make less of something it invariably costs more, you are in management so you must know that too. This point is absolutely credible, but obviously only to a point. and is not the only reason.

- More expensive separate components are usually better build, examples: bigger and heavier enclosure, tighter tolerance resistors, capacitors etc, better power supplies, heat sinks, higher quality circuit boards, better matched pairs of transistors etc.

- Generally better workmanship.

- Much heavier mostly due to the heavier duty enclosure and power supplies and heat sinks resulted in higher handling and shipping costs.

- Advertising costs (again, in terms of economy of scale).

Everything above could contribute to better quality that may or may not show up in the important metrics, but there is no guarantee any of all of them would result in audibly better sound quality. For example, the theoretical difference in video resolution between 4K and 1080p is huge, but viewing a 60" panel from 4 meters away, it will be tough for us human to tell the difference even with test patterns.

The fact is, even a $1000 AVR (discounted street price) can already achieve virtually flat frequency response, very low THD, IMD, excellent SN ratio, damping factor, negligible cross talk and has enough power for a lot of speakers in small to medium sized rooms. Loudspeakers are a different story, you can pay $1000 for a pair of KEF Q series or $30,000 for their Blades or even $5,000 for the R900, and the difference will be very audible.
 
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W

whiplash

Junior Audioholic
I'm sorry if I upset anyone, wasn't my point.
It's true I'm a little mad, after all things what I read it, sometimes is better less than more :)
I want an explication about one thing please.
Seeing my speakers "goes down" just at 49Hz, what repercussions does this only in listening to music?
And seeing i like to listen new classic music(like David Garrett, Vanessa Mae, Hiromi Uehara), classic music, ambient&lounge music.
Please give me an empirically explication and not to suggest me the subwoofer.

Thank you all very much in advance!

Best regards,
George.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Warlord
I'm sorry if I upset anyone, wasn't my point.
It's true I'm a little mad, after all things what I read it, sometimes is better less than more :)
I want an explication about one thing please.
Seeing my speakers "goes down" just at 49Hz, what repercussions does this only in listening to music?
And seeing i like to listen new classic music(like David Garrett, Vanessa Mae, Hiromi Uehara), classic music, ambient&lounge music.
Please give me an empirically explication and not to suggest me the subwoofer.

Thank you all very much in advance!

Best regards,
George.
Nobody's upset. It just seems like you're a little resistant to some of the advice you're getting.

Your speakers won't be able to play any deep bass by themselves. If they roll off at 49 hz they simply will not play loud enough below that level to be heard. For a lot of music that's not too bad, but If you listen to anything with substantial or deep bass, you might not be happy with them alone, and no amplifier will be able to fix it.

My speakers roll off at around the same frequency and there's no way I would go without subs, but then I listen to some bass heavy music sometimes.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I'm sorry if I upset anyone, wasn't my point.
It's true I'm a little mad, after all things what I read it, sometimes is better less than more :)
I want an explication about one thing please.
Seeing my speakers "goes down" just at 49Hz, what repercussions does this only in listening to music?
And seeing i like to listen new classic music(like David Garrett, Vanessa Mae, Hiromi Uehara), classic music, ambient&lounge music.
Please give me an empirically explication and not to suggest me the subwoofer.

Thank you all very much in advance!

Best regards,
George.
Who's upset? Seems you perhaps are if you think you've spent too much? Believed reviews and advertising? :) You're human, no worries. :)

If your speakers' f3 point is 49hz and you don't support them with a sub you're going to miss things in the lower registers, and perhaps more so as you increase volume, as compared to using those speakers with a sub. What exactly will depend on the range of the instruments in the music you listen to (or the movie soundtracks). Can't answer in terms of what music you like or how you hear it, way too subjective. Here's a chart showing frequency range for a variety of instruments:
instr chart.jpg
 

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