Stereo amplifier for DALI Opticon 6

W

whiplash

Junior Audioholic
Hi all,

I joined this forum because I need advices for choosing an stereo amplifier for my pair of DALI Opticon 6.
What I want from the association with the new stereo amplifier is: to have a warm sound, to HAVE the same details of sound at lower volume and to have HT-bypass.

My room have about 100 square feet, about 250 cubic feet, the room is not treated acoustically, and for now I do not have much furniture in the room, I mean I have a body about 80x40(Lxh), some tables, a body for TV and the rest of the system and 2 couches. Most of time the volume level for listening will be low, like in sourdine but like I said I want same details of sound like at higher volume level.

Thank you all in advance and I can't wait yours advices!

Best regards,
George.
 
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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
Why would you want an amp to act as a tone control?
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Samurai
Why would you want an amp to act as a tone control?
In my case, I can control the tone by using the effects on the computer EQ software. There are also some effects in the Denon AVR. On the computer there's pop, garage, concert hall, outdoors, jazz, rock, classical etc. . . .all which change the tone. Some are warm, some are more live, some raw, etc. I think those effects are more noticeable than any differences between amplifiers. The long way around that is via manual adjustment of the EQ.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
EQ and dsp are surely better ways of controlling sound qualities, let alone speakers and room acoustics. Trying to find an amp that uniquely/natively does just what your speakers/room/ears want would certainly not be worth the time/money to me.
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Samurai
EQ and dsp are surely better ways of controlling sound qualities, let alone speakers and room acoustics. Trying to find an amp that uniquely/natively does just what your speakers/room/ears want would certainly not be worth the time/money to me.
In the OP's case, it's really going to be up to his speakers initially. Those that he mentioned look like they ought to sound great no matter what amp he chooses, provided it has enough power.
upload_2017-1-29_0-25-25.png



ETA: The brief trip trough some reviews has them described as "Bold and exciting," which is the opposite of warm. In a small room of 100 sq ft, it's going to be hard to tell those monsters what to sound like and it's going to be up to EQ no matter what kind of amp you add to them. At least from my prior, albeit antiquated experience. We used to have to choose speakers for certain characteristics as the foundation for the tone we were after, and more so the larger the speakers got.
 
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W

whiplash

Junior Audioholic
Why would you want an amp to act as a tone control?
Well, I'm newbie in audio branch, so, after i read a lots of reviews/forums, I understand the matching speakers-amplifier play an important role for the sound which you will have. So, already having this speakers, I want to find the best match for my taste, which means warm sound, and like I said to have(the amp) the quality to have the same details on a lower level volume and HT-bypass.

To be honest, after my digging I find this 2 amps: Hegel H160(class A-B) and Lyngdorf TDAI-2170(class D). Somebody can tell me if, a class D amp is a issue for the speakers which have a hybrid tweeter with ribbon?
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
So you did all this reading elsewhere then decided to make this your first post here? What did those other places that believe in such "pairings" can be predicted for you via an internet thread have to say about your choices? Those are integrated amps by the way. Class of amp shouldn't matter if its a good design. Both are more european brands and all I know is they are quite expensive for what they do.
 
W

whiplash

Junior Audioholic
ETA: The brief trip trough some reviews has them described as "Bold and exciting," which is the opposite of warm. In a small room of 100 sq ft, it's going to be hard to tell those monsters what to sound like and it's going to be up to EQ no matter what kind of amp you add to them. At least from my prior, albeit antiquated experience. We used to have to choose speakers for certain characteristics as the foundation for the tone we were after, and more so the larger the speakers got.
Look at this review:

"The sound of the speaker systems is characterized by traditional for the Danish systems filigree elaboration of high-frequency range. Intelligent combination of tweeters, which use different solutions for converting electric energy into acoustic, allow you to use strong points of each. Dynamic heads and strip bands responds to impulse and work with phase in slightly different ways, so their proper coordination is a difficult task, but in this case the engineers of DALI coped with it brilliant. Attack, playback of the main tone, and fading of overtones are natural, without extra accents on any of aspects of phonation. The sound in this part of the range can be characterized as balanced and filigree-detailed. Mid frequencies are smooth and quiet and attaches to a long listening. Speaking about bass, it should be considered as adequate and sufficient. At placing the speaker systems at some distance from walls of a room the attack and intelligibility of bass guitar and double bass do not cause any claims. Surely, DALI Opticon 6 can harder create really serious level of sound pressure of great organ, but they sound the available part of the range very and very good. I especially want to note the ability of the system to form a convincing three-dimensional sound space, where parties of each instrument take their own places."

Still think they are "Bold and exciting"?
 
W

whiplash

Junior Audioholic
So you did all this reading elsewhere then decided to make this your first post here? What did those other places that believe in such "pairings" can be predicted for you via an internet thread have to say about your choices? Those are integrated amps by the way. Class of amp shouldn't matter if its a good design. Both are more european brands and all I know is they are quite expensive for what they do.
Well, I think it's normal to read at least a lil bit before you ask questions. And if i was sure about what i read it, i did not come an audiophile forum to ask about help. Like i said, I'm really newbie in this domain. And all what I wanted, was the opinion from real audiophiles peoples. For that i chose and joined this forum. And yes, i'm looking for an integrated amps, and yes I'm from Europe.
I asked about issue between class D amp and ribbon tweeter because i read about that too, so again i wanted a opinion from qualified people in the field.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
Unfortunately in the current audio press there is about 90% bunk. So what you read makes you more ignorant than before you started.

This is a forum that will give you the straight scoop. We have members here with many years experience, over 60 for me.

The first thing to get straight is that the speakers, and the interaction of the speakers and the room will create the sound you hear.

Having said that good speakers are far less fussy about the room they are placed in. There is a good reason for that. Most domestic rooms have good sound for conversational speech. If you had a musician in there playing an instrument with a singer it would likely sound OK. If not it would be hard to make any speaker sound good in it.

Now what makes a speaker sound good is now pretty much well known. Like musical instruments there is the sound that reaches you directly and the speaker is wholly responsible for that. The rest is reflected sound. The further you move away from the speaker the more reflected sound there is compared to direct sound. So in this area we have a combination of speaker and room.

Now the flatter the frequency response and the closer the off axis response of a speaker mirrors the axis response the better the speaker will sound. This is well established in listening panels.

Now the ear expects to receive lots of reflected sound, and the ear has lots of leeway in what it will tolerate in terms of reflected sound. What is does not like is a huge discrepancy in tonal balance of direct and reflected sound. That is a huge issue for a large number of speakers. As well as being sub par, it makes them very fussy. The other issue is that it is a myth that it can all be made right by EQ or changing amps. As Billy Woodman of ATC points out, frequency domain errors in speakers are almost always associated with retained energy in the mechanical/acoustic system and can not be put right with EQ.

There is one more issue that is of importance in making a speaker sound natural, and that is its damping or Q. A speaker should be well damped and not resonant. When the sound stops, the speaker should stop also. Many don't and have prolonged impulse responses. This also makes them fussy, as it will reinforce room resonances in the bass decade.

Now you have your room, and your speakers. It is fruitless to find an amp that will change the situation I have outlined.

So the speakers will sound the same in your room with any competently designed amp of sufficient power.

There are probably not many integrated amps that will do justice to those speakers. However one company really stands out in superb integrated amps and that is Creek

If you power your speakers with an amp of impeccable quality like that and don't like what you hear, then you bought the wrong speakers.

Before buying speakers subjective BS reviews are worse than useless. Auditioning helps.

However the most useful is extensive third party measurements. To understand these you need some fairly extensive education.

There are so many bad speakers out there I say it in unwise to buy a speaker without an audition and or right of return. I personally would be reluctant to buy a speaker without extensive reliable third party measurements.

Bottom line is that if you buy a quality amp and don't like what you hear you bought the wrong speakers.

Here we are not going to snookered into discussions of whether amps are "Chocolaty or velvety" with said speaker. That is the stuff of fantasy and self delusion.
 
W

whiplash

Junior Audioholic
Dear Sir,


I want to thank you for all your advices. Like I said, I'm a newbie and wanted to figured out about some things. First, how much money worth the amplifier seeing they price of the speakers: $1800, it's worth an investment about $2500-3000? Will do a good difference for quality of sound such a expensive amplifier, or the difference between one f which cost about $1200 will and a Creek like your example with a double price even more will not do a good difference? I ask that cause I really don't want to "lose" money, but if it's worth i want to spend it for a good quality of sound. I like to listen new classic(like David Garrett, Vaessa Mae, Hiromi Uehara), classic music and ambient lounge music. I'm pretty sure that are amplifier who favorise which one a style of music and I want to figure out that, that depend also of speakers, but the speakers i already have and can't changed.

Also i wanted to know if a class D amplifier "engages well" with speakers which have hybrid tweeter with ribbon?

And if is possible, seeing my speakers start at 49Hz, if some amplifier can compensate this fact when i will listen music with tones under 49Hz.


Maybe all this questions seems silly, but i think all we was newbie once.


Thank you.

Best regards,

George.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
Dear Sir,


I want to thank you for all your advices. Like I said, I'm a newbie and wanted to figured out about some things. First, how much money worth the amplifier seeing they price of the speakers: $1800, it's worth an investment about $2500-3000? Will do a good difference for quality of sound such a expensive amplifier, or the difference between one f which cost about $1200 will and a Creek like your example with a double price even more will not do a good difference? I ask that cause I really don't want to "lose" money, but if it's worth i want to spend it for a good quality of sound. I like to listen new classic(like David Garrett, Vaessa Mae, Hiromi Uehara), classic music and ambient lounge music. I'm pretty sure that are amplifier who favorise which one a style of music and I want to figure out that, that depend also of speakers, but the speakers i already have and can't changed.

Also i wanted to know if a class D amplifier "engages well" with speakers which have hybrid tweeter with ribbon?

And if is possible, seeing my speakers start at 49Hz, if some amplifier can compensate this fact when i will listen music with tones under 49Hz.


Maybe all this questions seems silly, but i think all we was newbie once.


Thank you.

Best regards,

George.
I would not buy a class D amp. I have no idea of the impedance curve of your speakers, and class D amps can have problems with the impedance curves of real world speakers.

I would get a good class AB amp in the 100 to 200 watts per channel class.

No amplifier will extend the bass response of those speakers. You can in no way extend the bass of a ported speaker. The drivers just decouple from the box if you try, and you get a lot of useless totally ineffective cone movement and distortion rises exponentially.

Well you bought those speakers before the post. We would have told you that a 3db point of 49 Hz is not very good performance from a speaker of that size, and that many bookshelves could do better.

Those speakers will sound a bit lean. Speakers that can reach into the mid thirties will actually sound pretty good on most music.

Your speakers are going to need a good sub.
 
KenM10759

KenM10759

Audioholic Samurai
An NAD C388 is a hybrid Class D integrated amp at 150 w/ch and would be worth a try. It's less than the speakers, has a phono amp and tone controls.

I've heard the lesser C368 and was very surprised at the quality for the money. Yesterday I was at my dealer talking about them and was told a firmware update is coming which makes it even better. I do know NAD needed to straighten out bass management (the sub pre-out) with the units, they know it too and have been working hard to get it right. It works really fine for full range output as is.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
It seems you likely have got into the wrong speakers. I think you wanted a rig for old fashioned stereo listening.

Like so much of the speaker offerings now those speakers are aimed at the AV home theater market. After review it is pretty clear that is where those speakers are aimed.

Therefore the manufacturers assume a sub will be used and the electronics will have bass management.

I have a strong feeling you will not like those speakers without a sub. Therefore you can not use an integrated amp.

You have two options.

One: - to use a preamp and power amp. The preamp can drive your power amp and a powered sub. However your main speakers will still be full range and supplemented by the sub. This is not a bad thing and may well work for you. I would set the sub to start supplementing your speakers in the 80 to 90 Hz area. With an f3 of 49 Hz 90 Hz would be the place to start.

Now if you want full bass management then that means getting an AV receiver, and you will need it connected to a TV at least for set up.

This will give you the option of cutting the bass out of your main speakers and letting the sub handle the bass.

All said and done it is not such a bad thing to integrate sound and picture. That is where the market is and is increasingly driven.

Just a word of caution, NAD gear has reliability issues above the norm.
 
KenM10759

KenM10759

Audioholic Samurai
My NAD stuff has never failed. Perhaps I'm lucky but I just enjoy the way it sounds and the way it works.

As to Class D amps, there has been so much development in the technology that it's no longer a differentiator. Look at the high end reputable amp makers who have embraced it, but more telling is the pace at which the market has expanded.
 
W

whiplash

Junior Audioholic
It seems you likely have got into the wrong speakers. I think you wanted a rig for old fashioned stereo listening.

Like so much of the speaker offerings now those speakers are aimed at the AV home theater market. After review it is pretty clear that is where those speakers are aimed.

Therefore the manufacturers assume a sub will be used and the electronics will have bass management.

I have a strong feeling you will not like those speakers without a sub. Therefore you can not use an integrated amp.

You have two options.

One: - to use a preamp and power amp. The preamp can drive your power amp and a powered sub. However your main speakers will still be full range and supplemented by the sub. This is not a bad thing and may well work for you. I would set the sub to start supplementing your speakers in the 80 to 90 Hz area. With an f3 of 49 Hz 90 Hz would be the place to start.

Now if you want full bass management then that means getting an AV receiver, and you will need it connected to a TV at least for set up.

This will give you the option of cutting the bass out of your main speakers and letting the sub handle the bass.

All said and done it is not such a bad thing to integrate sound and picture. That is where the market is and is increasingly driven.

Just a word of caution, NAD gear has reliability issues above the norm.

Hi again,



Well in this range of price, after reading a lot about them, and made a listening I find it pretty good for music, I don’t claim I’m an audiophile or wanted to be one, just wanted a pairs of speakers with a good quality of sound on this budget.

What is curious, is, that those who tested this speakers have a good opinion at their price.

Yes, it’s true i wanted to combine video + audio, but my main target was audio.

Here is an interesting review:


http://www.hifi-review.com/153659-dali-opticon-6.html


I can give you another test but is in german, so i will paste a translation:


“Great sound, very neutral, enough bass, great design, fair price”


This have been said, I have 2 question if possible:


  1. I can’t told you the impedance curve of my speakers, but what I can told ya, the Lyngdorf TDAI-2170 have connection for a sub even if a D class. But my question about D class was, if is a bad match a D class with speakers which have hybrid tweeter with ribbon?
  2. How can be "individualized" an amplifier that at a low volume have the same "details / quality" sound as in high volumes?

Best regards.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Spartan
George

DALI Opticon 6 seem to be more widely available in Europe than in the US. I've never heard them.
Dali's web site says this about the Opticon 6 speakers:
Sensitivity 89 dB (2,83 V/1 m)
Nominal Impedance 4 ohms
Maximum SPL 110 dB
Recommended Amplifier Power 25-200 W​
Without knowing any more details of these speakers, such as an impedance vs. frequency curve, we can only say to look for an amp in the recommended power range.

In your original post, you mentioned your room dimensions as 100 square feet, about 250 cubic feet. Are you sure those numbers are correct? A small room could be 100 square feet (perhaps 10×10 feet, or 3×3 meters), but it could not be 250 cubic feet in volume unless the ceiling is 2.5 feet (0.76 meter) above the floor!
 
W

whiplash

Junior Audioholic
George

DALI Opticon 6 seem to be more widely available in Europe than in the US. I've never heard them.
Dali's web site says this about the Opticon 6 speakers:
Sensitivity 89 dB (2,83 V/1 m)
Nominal Impedance 4 ohms
Maximum SPL 110 dB
Recommended Amplifier Power 25-200 W​
Without knowing any more details of these speakers, such as an impedance vs. frequency curve, we can only say to look for an amp in the recommended power range.

In your original post, you mentioned your room dimensions as 100 square feet, about 250 cubic feet. Are you sure those numbers are correct? A small room could be 100 square feet (perhaps 10×10 feet, or 3×3 meters), but it could not be 250 cubic feet in volume unless the ceiling is 2.5 feet (0.76 meter) above the floor!

Well i think it's much sure to says in meters :) it's 6x5 meters and 2,5 m high.

And i can give you some more specs:

3.5-way speaker
SMC Technology
Bass-reflex

Measures
Frequency response: 49 Hz to 32 kHz
Accordion bass-reflex: 42 Hz
Sensitivity: 88.5 dB / w / m
Nominal impedance: 4 Ohms
Sound level max. : 110 dB
Filter cut-off frequencies: 800 Hz, 2.2 kHz and 14 kHz

Loudspeakers
2x 16.5 cm bass driver with wood fiber cone
1x ribbon tweeter of 17x45 mm
1x textile dome tweeter, 28 mm
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
Well i think it's much sure to says in meters :) it's 6x5 meters and 2,5 m high.

And i can give you some more specs:

3.5-way speaker
SMC Technology
Bass-reflex

Measures
Frequency response: 49 Hz to 32 kHz
Accordion bass-reflex: 42 Hz
Sensitivity: 88.5 dB / w / m
Nominal impedance: 4 Ohms
Sound level max. : 110 dB
Filter cut-off frequencies: 800 Hz, 2.2 kHz and 14 kHz

Loudspeakers
2x 16.5 cm bass driver with wood fiber cone
1x ribbon tweeter of 17x45 mm
1x textile dome tweeter, 28 mm
The most encouraging news I have heard from you is that you are open to AV.

Now I can give you clear advice.

For me those speakers would sound lean and tend to limit my choice of music.

For me I like a system to reach at least just below 30 Hz.

The orchestral double bass goes down to 33 Hz, the concert grand piano goes down to 27.5 Hz

The lowest 16ft organ principal is 34 HZ True a 32 ft stop on the lowest note of the range goes down to 16.5Hz but the rest no lower then 25 Hz.

Your speaker with an F3 of 49Hz on balance would I think benefit from a complete crossover to prevent excessive useless excursion below 49 Hz.

I would buy a sub that has an F3 no higher than 27 Hz and a little lower if possible..

Get yourself an AV receiver. Make sure you get one with preouts so you can use an external power amp if the receiver is not quite powerful enough.

A 2.1 system gives an excellent AV experience. If you so desire you can add the rest later.

I think that is the best advice I can give you. I can tell you the modern blend of AV is great match. I now am able to get a picture on all my systems and would not have it any other way.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
Well, I think it's normal to read at least a lil bit before you ask questions. And if i was sure about what i read it, i did not come an audiophile forum to ask about help. Like i said, I'm really newbie in this domain. And all what I wanted, was the opinion from real audiophiles peoples. For that i chose and joined this forum. And yes, i'm looking for an integrated amps, and yes I'm from Europe.
I asked about issue between class D amp and ribbon tweeter because i read about that too, so again i wanted a opinion from qualified people in the field.
Sorry, we have had a rash of posters with no history coming on here pushing the audiophoolery often found in audio magazines and several forums. Welcome to AH in any case. Still, it would be nice if you explained what you read and where you read it, or even why you are looking at these two particular integrated amps.

I've read reports of many using the current crop of class D amps of various manufacture with a variety of speakers, I doubt yours pose any particular issues. Some older class D designs did have some design issues, and there may still be such out there, but if worried then ask the amp manufacturer.

I like the recommendations you got in the meantime about obtaining a subwoofer and an AVR, whether or not you add more speakers. Bass management is rarely found in an integrated amp (it does exist, Parasound Halo for example).
 

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