Newb needs some help: speaker size

[Bucknekked]

Just last night, I was listening (still with the JBL full range, which are rated down to 35hz) to a cut by keyboardist Jimmy McGriff, and it had bass notes so low, that it was rattling the DRYWALL and attic access cover in my hallway and not turned up very loud and the drywall is not loose in there. I'm actually considering adding weather strip to the bedroom doors and attic access, so that they don't vibrate in their openings, if that is to be a byproduct of larger sealed (12") subwoofers I am planning on adding.
. lol

MrBoat:
I had to laugh when I read that. I have a new home that I bought 3 years ago that my music room is in. All brand new construction. The last thing I expected was vibrations from my puny little music room and modest system inside of it. Yet, when i would only modestly crank up a tune that had some decent bass, I was hearing buzzes and rattles. If I really cranked it up, I could drown them out, but at moderate listening levels there definitely were buzzes and rattles.

It took me a while to figure out the pressure from the bass wave was actually rattling the door in the frame. I have 10 foot ceilings and these doors are 9 feet tall. But that 9 foot door was acting like a passive radiator. I did as you have thought: I weatherstripped it to make it stop. But the rattles did not stop there.

I will save you the detective story, but as it turns out the outside wall of my music room is one of the walls in a hallway. A hallway lined with pictures. Those pictures hung OUTSIDE the music room were rattling and vibrating loud enough to be heard inside the room. They were also vibrating enough to move the pictures so they all eventually were crooked. That was a project with those little rubber feet and felt pads for all those picture frames. I do like to crank it up for the right tunes. Bass waves penetrate just about everything I guess.

As to your ability to offer a valid opinion, don't ever feel like yours isn't valuable. You qualify your background, and you express your opinion. How you feel about something is always genuine. Never wrong.

 

[MrBoat]

MrBoat:
I had to laugh when I read that. I have a new home that I bought 3 years ago that my music room is in. All brand new construction. The last thing I expected was vibrations from my puny little music room and modest system inside of it. Yet, when i would only modestly crank up a tune that had some decent bass, I was hearing buzzes and rattles. If I really cranked it up, I could drown them out, but at moderate listening levels there definitely were buzzes and rattles.

It took me a while to figure out the pressure from the bass wave was actually rattling the door in the frame. I have 10 foot ceilings and these doors are 9 feet tall. But that 9 foot door was acting like a passive radiator. I did as you have thought: I weatherstripped it to make it stop. But the rattles did not stop there.

I will save you the detective story, but as it turns out the outside wall of my music room is one of the walls in a hallway. A hallway lined with pictures. Those pictures hung OUTSIDE the music room were rattling and vibrating loud enough to be heard inside the room. They were also vibrating enough to move the pictures so they all eventually were crooked. That was a project with those little rubber feet and felt pads for all those picture frames. I do like to crank it up for the right tunes. Bass waves penetrate just about everything I guess.

As to your ability to offer a valid opinion, don't ever feel like yours isn't valuable. You qualify your background, and you express your opinion. How you feel about something is always genuine. Never wrong.

Well, to my credit, not all audioholics strive for perfection, as much as they may for quality, undistorted sound. Just as not all alcoholics drink gold medal scotch as much as for the end result.

I mostly get involved in these threads for a couple reasons. Not so much to derail them. One is, seeking consistency of experience/opinions. In this case, around the size/shape of your room. Another being, you are considering multiple options, that are not entirely restrained by the common, or basic rules of acoustics. Also, that your target listening/seating arrangement/expectations ultimately, are similar to mine.

Now I am curious as to what you end up with and how it works. Via participation in this thread, it will end up filing itself subconsciously with information I tend to keep for future use.

 

[Ponzio]

From the FWIW Department:

First of all I would recommend that u get a SVS sub whether u get the Salk towers or the LS50’s monitors/bookshelves. A sub will add depth and broaden the sound-stage of any speaker even further. Depending on what you’re going to use them for a majority of the time I would recommend a sealed sub for music or a ported sub for HT (home theater). Either the SB-2000 or PB-1000 should be more than adequate for ur 10’x10’ room.

I own both the KEF LS50’s & the Salk SongTower QWT’s and their associated center channel speakers. Choosing one or the other is tough for me. It’s like choosing your favorite child. I originally had the LS50’s in my office (14’x14’) and I was happy as a clam until I had a once in a lifetime opportunity to pick up a pair of the Salk’s at a good price. This can be verified by Swerd since he was along for the ride when I demoed the two year old Salk’s and purchased them without blinking an eye. The price though was not the deciding factor when I purchased them. The “sound” similarities for both speakers is eerie, they are both very neutral and detailed without being ear fatiguing at the same time. So why did I purchase the towers to replace the LS50’s in my sound room? Simple … physics. In most cases a tower speaker will give u a larger sound-stage. Then it’s just a matter of your tonal preferences, that’s why I can’t stress enough that u demo any speaker before purchasing, if possible. The final arbitrator in the end will be your ears.

BTW I’ve kept the LS50’s (bedroom) out of the more than 10 speakers pairs I’ve owned during a three year purchasing binge. With the exception of the Joseph Audio Pulsars & the Focal 1008 Be’s I believe the LS50’s are an amazing speaker at its price point out of all the too numerous to mention bookshelves that I’ve demoed at brick & mortar shops and privately in people's homes.

Just another man’s opinion. Good luck

 

[Pogre]

So far on this most excellent discussion, derailed or sidetracked or not, I am close to getting what I originally sought : opinions on whether bookshelves, bookshelves + a sub, or should be the next speakers be towers and screw the subs.

Bookshelves or towers was my original query. Along the way we've talked about what I have installed now, what the room is like, and what some of the problems I'm trying to solve are. I couldn't have asked for a better discussion along the way. Truly informative and for the most part, largely as objective as any discussion about audio can be.

So far, I have a solid recommendation for bookshelves + sub in an SVS solution. One of our members is a solid and satisfied SVS owner and gives this two thumbs up. Audioholics has reviewed these products favorably. That's a solution that fits the problem very neatly.

Additionally, I have a solid recommendation for a set of towers. Also from someone that's owns the specific Salk tower products and can give them two thumbs up. Audioholics has also reviewed the Salk favorably. That's a solution that fits the problem as well.

I also have a couple of honorable mentions from KEF LS 50 owners, although none that had the fervor of the SVS and Salk solutions. What I am most surprised at I guess is no votes or love for the Legacy HD. Some folks mentioned them, but nobody came out of the closet as an owner with their thumbs raised.

I will leave the thread open for anyone who wants to toss in opinions. I think the lead time on ordering Salk equipment is 40 days or so until they will be received. I think the SVS stuff is available immediately. I am not in a hurry. I will enjoy the actual deciding. No knee jerk reaction or impulse purchase this time around.

Short of someone coming in with a dynamic and impressive recommendation other than KEF, Salk or SVS, I shall noodle between my recommended choices and after the turn of the year, place an order.
Thanks to the community for making this choosing an enjoyable and informative experience.

You know, Buck. We don't get a lot of folks through here who are as well written as you, open to suggestion and actually take advice and suggestions under consideration. Plus this thread has been fun and informative to read. I think any of the 3 you've narrowed it down to are great choices. You've done your due dilligence. I think you're going to be very happy when it's all said and done..

I hope you stick around man. It's been fun keeping up with this thread.

 

[Pogre]

From the FWIW Department:

First of all I would recommend that u get a SVS sub whether u get the Salk towers or the LS50’s monitors/bookshelves. A sub will add depth and broaden the sound-stage of any speaker even further. Depending on what you’re going to use them for a majority of the time I would recommend a sealed sub for music or a ported sub for HT (home theater). Either the SB-2000 or PB-1000 should be more than adequate for ur 10’x10’ room.
k
I own both the KEF LS50’s & the Salk SongTower QWT’s and their associated center channel speakers. Choosing one or the other is tough for me. It’s like choosing your favorite child. I originally had the LS50’s in my office (14’x14’) and I was happy as a clam until I had a once in a lifetime opportunity to pick up a pair of the Salk’s at a good price. This can be verified by Swerd since he was along for the ride when I demoed the two year old Salk’s and purchased them without blinking an eye. The price though was not the deciding factor when I purchased them. The “sound” similarities for both speakers is eerie, they are both very neutral and detailed without being ear fatiguing at the same time. So why did I purchase the towers to replace the LS50’s in my sound room? Simple … physics. In most cases a tower speaker will give u a larger sound-stage. Then it’s just a matter of your tonal preferences, that’s why I can’t stress enough that u demo any speaker before purchasing, if possible. The final arbitrator in the end will be your ears.

BTW I’ve kept the LS50’s (bedroom) out of the more than 10 speakers pairs I’ve owned during a three year purchasing binge. With the exception of the Joseph Audio Pulsars & the Focal 1008 Be’s I believe the LS50’s are an amazing speaker at its price point out of all the too numerous to mention bookshelves that I’ve demoed at brick & mortar shops and privately in people's homes.

Just another man’s opinion. Good luck

For a sealed sub I think the SB 1000 would be plenty for that room, and a little easier on the bank account. I have 2 of them in a very large room and they do great for music.

The SB 2000 is a great sub though. Not gonna lie, I'd own a pair of them if I wouldn't have gotten a smoking deal on the 1000's.

 

[MrBoat]

I own both the KEF LS50’s & the Salk SongTower QWT’s and their associated center channel speakers. Choosing one or the other is tough for me. It’s like choosing your favorite child.

This is what I am going through with the JBL's and why I aim to keep them. Especially after switching back and forth a couple times recently, and also having them shut my buddy up who is pretty snobby with regard to his superior choices, which range from beer, food, coffee, music etc. We put his Best Buy Klipsch towers on the B channel of my old amp, with the JBL's still on the A channel. We didn't play them simultaneously, but switched back and forth during tracks and he actually, for once in his life, conceded. It was that obvious, even to him and his self-inflicted biases.

 

[Swerd]

This is what I am going through with the JBL's and why I aim to keep them. Especially after switching back and forth a couple times recently, and also having them shut my buddy up who is pretty snobby with regard to his superior choices, which range from beer, food, coffee, music etc. We put his Best Buy Klipsch towers on the B channel of my old amp, with the JBL's still on the A channel. We didn't play them simultaneously, but switched back and forth during tracks and he actually, for once in his life, conceded. It was that obvious, even to him and his self-inflicted biases.

Those self-inflicted biases are my favorite kind.

 

[MrBoat]

Those self-inflicted biases are my favorite kind.

Didn't mean to be redundant. He just goes out of his way more than others. Actually, he's not a bad guy. ..just a PITA with things like that. Just don't get caught putting sugar or creamer in coffee, or with a mainstream beer in your hand around him

 

[Bucknekked]

Starting with the room of cubic dimensions, let's talk bass. Common dimensions will unfortunately excite the same modal frequencies, which makes cubic rooms a tough nut to crack. The small room will also exhibit significant reinforcement in the lower octaves, typically following a 12 db upward slope below 40 hz or so.

SKi2xblack
Thank you for your informative post. I believe you are spot on with your comments on modal frequencies caused by a cubic space. I have that upward reinforced bump in the lower frequencies right now and I have not been able to "adjust" it out. I have not tried pillows and comforters in the corners yet. I DO have pillows and comforters stuffing the closet that is the back wall of this space. That did make a big difference. I could go on a scouting mission for more pillows and blankets and see what happens in the front corners. I think room treatments (the official kind) are pretty expensive. Only slightly less expensive than good pillows or comforters

I will give that a shot. I am also very glad to hear of someone that has listened to Salk and KEF LS50 in the same space and can give personal anecdotes. Even though its a single data point on a subjective item, I find it reassuring and reinforcing. Thank you for sharing and it helps me cut my short list from 3 choices to 2. I think I will cut it to two and I can make a trip to listen to one of them locally. I'm screwed on the Salk. No local places that I know of in Phoenix Arizona for Salk. There is a place that has LS 50's.

I think you are also correct when you say I'm choosing between all good options. I'm not choosing between bad and good. I'm sorta in the better-better-better range. They're all better than I can hear. But not so over the top I'm wasting cash. And not so expensive as to be offensive to normal folks (like my wife).
Thanks for posting.

 

[Swerd]

I am also very glad to hear of someone that has listened to Salk and KEF LS50 in the same space and can give personal anecdotes. Even though its a single data point on a subjective item, I find it reassuring and reinforcing. Thank you for sharing and it helps me cut my short list from 3 choices to 2. I think I will cut it to two and I can make a trip to listen to one of them locally. I'm screwed on the Salk. No local places that I know of in Phoenix Arizona for Salk.

Jim Salk keeps a list of owners who are willing to demo their speakers to prospective buyers. Ask him if there is anyone in your area. I've demoed mine several times. Most owners are glad to show off their speakers.

You can make that two data points (see below).

I own both the KEF LS50’s & the Salk SongTower QWT’s and their associated center channel speakers. Choosing one or the other is tough for me. It’s like choosing your favorite child. I originally had the LS50’s in my office (14’x14’) and I was happy as a clam until I had a once in a lifetime opportunity to pick up a pair of the Salk’s at a good price. This can be verified by Swerd since he was along for the ride when I demoed the two year old Salk’s and purchased them without blinking an eye.

Verified. I think Ponzio listened for about 5 or 10 seconds before he said "sold" .

When he visited to buy those SongTowers, he brought his LS50s along. I got to listen to them in the same room where I kept my STs. I brought down my CAOW1/Salk SSI speakers which I keep upstairs. So we listened to all three in the same room. I agree with Ponzio's thoughts. If choosing between either of those two small bookshelf speakers, while they aren't identical, I could easily live with either one. The biggest difference is in their retail price, $1500 vs. $895 (shipping extra). And we both agree that the SongTowers are that much better.

 

[Bucknekked]

Jim Salk keeps a list of owners who are willing to demo their speakers to prospective buyers. Ask him if there is anyone in your area. I've demoed mine several times. Most owners are glad to show off their speakers.

Swerd:
I had forgotten about the idea of contacting Jim Salk and asking if there are any local Salk owners here in Arizona. I wrote him a note this morning asking him two things : 1) Did he think the Songtower was the best choice for my 10x10x10 cube out of his lineup 2) Did he have someone local to me in Phoenix that would be willing to entertain a visitor? I also volunteered to make a day trip to anyplace I can drive to in a day.

I would actually value a listen in someone's home much more than going to a storefront and listening in a showroom environment. The KEF LS50 is local to me in a showroom. But I have no idea what that showroom is like, or, what the store is like either as a vendor. I guess I will find out in a week or so after the turn of the year. Hopefully, there are Salk installed clients who are happy enough to share an experience.

Research is fun. I enjoy it. I am a closet CSI guy. But, listening to music is the best. I hope I get to audition both choices.

 

[-Jim-]

Hi Buck,

Just to mess with this a bit, and offer my 2 cents, I thought I'd chime in.

Your near field installation in a small room is an interesting application. I suggest you stay with the measuring and analyzing of your present system, and tweak it to see if what improvements can be made. Then you'd have a baseline to audition new speakers if you aren't satisfied where you end up. (Besides, I'd like to follow this to it's conclusion. I'd learn a lot as I am just getting into REW and all.) Of course if you just "want" new stuff , that's a different equation...

I've been poking at audio for decades but certainly not to the level some folks here. (I still have a couple of pair of vintage JBLs and Altec Lansings I can't bear to part with. They are like family...) I agree JBL "sold" out their Brand name, and it got onto a lot of stuff I'd put in the "junk" category, and Altec.... don't get me started or I'll cry.

Just to be different, there is a multitude of speakers OEMs out there and therefore many ways to skin the cat. I've followed Andrew Jones a bit and bought a pair of his Pioneer branded 2 Way book shelf speakers for my home office (~10' x 11' Room) which really impressed me for the price. His latest venture is with Elac, and I find his UniFi line intriguing. The reviews have been very positive and at this price point supposedly superior to all others. (Even Gene here at Audioholics rates them #1.)

http://elac.com/product-category/uni-fi/

If you are destined for new speakers, I'd be tempted to go with a pair of Bookshelf units -and maybe later a Sub - after I'd measured and tweaked everything I could. The UniFi are certainly worth a listen.

I noticed you are in Arizona. There is a Fry's store at 3035 W. Thunderbird Rd in Tempe that I've been to a couple of times (and will probably go to again in March when I'm in the area). They handle Elac and maybe have the UniFi line.

Whatever you do, have fun with the journey...

 

[Swerd]

… I've been poking at audio for decades but certainly not to the level some folks here. (I still have a couple of pair of vintage JBLs and Altec Lansings I can't bear to part with. They are like family...) I agree JBL "sold" out their Brand name, and it got onto a lot of stuff I'd put in the "junk" category, and Altec.... don't get me started or I'll cry.

I also had been a vintage JBL fan. I have a pair of L100A speakers that were my only speakers from 1973 and had always considered them family, until 2007. Just for fun, see my DIY thread where I did all new crossovers for them (with much help from Dennis Murphy). It's an excellent example of just what a big difference a properly designed crossover makes.

The Vintage JBL West Coast Sound becomes the Coast to Coast Sound

 

[Pogre]

Swerd:
I had forgotten about the idea of contacting Jim Salk and asking if there are any local Salk owners here in Arizona. I wrote him a note this morning asking him two things : 1) Did he think the Songtower was the best choice for my 10x10x10 cube out of his lineup 2) Did he have someone local to me in Phoenix that would be willing to entertain a visitor? I also volunteered to make a day trip to anyplace I can drive to in a day.

I would actually value a listen in someone's home much more than going to a storefront and listening in a showroom environment. The KEF LS50 is local to me in a showroom. But I have no idea what that showroom is like, or, what the store is like either as a vendor. I guess I will find out in a week or so after the turn of the year. Hopefully, there are Salk installed clients who are happy enough to share an experience.

Research is fun. I enjoy it. I am a closet CSI guy. But, listening to music is the best. I hope I get to audition both choices.

That's funny. I live in the Phoenix area also. Mesa, specifically. I don't have Salk towers for you to audition, though it would be easy enough for me to unhook my Ultras and meet you if you wanted to give them a listen.

 

[Bucknekked]

That's funny. I live in the Phoenix area also. Mesa, specifically. I don't have Salk towers for you to audition, though it would be easy enough for me to unhook my Ultras and meet you if you wanted to give them a listen.

Pogre:
I knew there must be Audioholics in the Phoenix area. Glad to make your acquaintance, even if its just on a forum for now. Mesa is right next door to Gilbert so we are neighborhood buds. Every other forum (on very different subjects) has somebody local or sometimes even within a mile or so. The world is a very big place from one perspective and a very small one from another. Depending on how this shakes out, we may have try to audition those Ultras. I appreciate the kind offer.

My speaker budget doesn't come in til the end of the month. I think we shot half as much on fireworks last night as I should spend on speakers, but that came out of a different pot. Some years we don't do any fireworks because as you know in Arizona, the good stuff isn't legal. But sometimes there's an occasion to make a trip through New Mexico and some of those big aerial mortars find their way in to your trunk. Then whaddya gonna do? Got get rid of them. Best place to do that is straight up. it was a lot of fun.. Pure waste. still, a lot of fun.

 

[Pogre]

Pogre:
I knew there must be Audioholics in the Phoenix area. Glad to make your acquaintance, even if its just on a forum for now. Mesa is right next door to Gilbert so we are neighborhood buds. Every other forum (on very different subjects) has somebody local or sometimes even within a mile or so. The world is a very big place from one perspective and a very small one from another. Depending on how this shakes out, we may have try to audition those Ultras. I appreciate the kind offer.

My speaker budget doesn't come in til the end of the month. I think we shot half as much on fireworks last night as I should spend on speakers, but that came out of a different pot. Some years we don't do any fireworks because as you know in Arizona, the good stuff isn't legal. But sometimes there's an occasion to make a trip through New Mexico and some of those big aerial mortars find their way in to your trunk. Then whaddya gonna do? Got get rid of them. Best place to do that is straight up. it was a lot of fun.. Pure waste. still, a lot of fun.

I know from reading you pretty much have your mind made up. I think it's pretty neat to run into someone from my neck of the woods on this forum though. It's nice to make your acquaintance as well.

If you're interested sometime down the road, I wouldn't mind swinging by and we could set them up in your room. I could bring one of my subs too to give you some perspective on how it compares to your klipsch.

I'm not wanting to push SVS on you. From everything I've read and a few of the members here, the Salks are amazing speakers. I just love this hobby, and we're relatively close enough that it wouldn't really put me out at all.

 

[Bucknekked]

I know from reading you pretty much have your mind made up. I think it's pretty neat to run into someone from my neck of the woods on this forum though. It's nice to make your acquaintance as well.

Pogre, happy new year and all that rot.
Maybe you know something I don't, but I haven't made up my mind yet. I definitely have a short list of candidates, but, like Yogi once said, "it aint over til its over". When I started this journey, I had never heard of Salk or SVS. I had heard of KEF, but I thought they were dead and gone. And the only KEF speakers I had ever listened to back in the day did not make a good impression. Now all three seem like current state of the art stuff. Since I have til the end of the month until spending becomes possible, I get to drool for a couple of more weeks.

 

[Bucknekked]

Starting with the room of cubic dimensions, let's talk bass. Common dimensions will unfortunately excite the same modal frequencies, which makes cubic rooms a tough nut to crack. The small room will also exhibit significant reinforcement in the lower octaves, typically following a 12 db upward slope below 40 hz or so.

but the modes will be an issue. Perhaps some corner bass traps would help tame things in the modal frequencies. (A small, cube shaped room is probably the only situation where I would suggest treatments such as bass traps. You can test this out right now, with the speakers you have, by simply stuffing comforters and pillows in the corners and taking some measurement sweeps to compare the results.)

Ski2xblack:
Never one to ignore great advice, especially when I think it will work, I went on the hunt for something akin to bass traps I could stuff in the corners of my listening room. It just so happens the epiphany struck in the middle of the night : dog beds. I have some really big (3 feet diameter x 8 inch thick) dog beds for my Lab. I also have some smaller ones for the little guy. I took those dog beds and muscled them in to the corners of the room (front corners) and then took some measurements with REW.

The REW measurements show no change at all. None. Not a whisper. That may mean the bass traps are in the wrong place. That may mean the material isn't "bass trap" capable. Or, it just may mean that stuffing the front corners of my listening room with hair filled dog beds just wasn't the answer. Dunno. But I thought for sure I would move that bump and hump between 70 and 90 hertz. Alas, it was not to be.

Does anyone know how to do the waterfall graphs which supposedly show you the entire room response and point out "where" the standing waves actually are? Is that possible? I am not skilled enough to know, just enthusiastic enough to ask.

 

[shadyJ]

Click on the 'waterfall' button in the menu right above the graph display. In the lower left hand corner of the graph, click on the button that says 'generate'. The waterfall should come up. You may need to slide the window parameters around a bit in the 'limits' button in the upper right hand corner of the graph to get a sensible portrait of the data.

Bass traps aren't going to effect subwoofer frequencies. They might affect stuff around 150 Hz and above, but that is still the bass region. In order to effect subwoofer frequencies, you need impractically thick absorbers, many feet thick at least.

 

[Bucknekked]

Click on the 'waterfall' button in the menu right above the graph display. In the lower left hand corner of the graph, click on the button that says 'generate'. The waterfall should come up. You may need to slide the window parameters around a bit in the 'limits' button in the upper right hand corner of the graph to get a sensible portrait of the data.

Bass traps aren't going to effect subwoofer frequencies. They might affect stuff around 150 Hz and above, but that is still the bass region. In order to effect subwoofer frequencies, you need impractically thick absorbers, many feet thick at least.

Shadyj:
Once again, great information to know. But it begs the question: why call them bass traps if the frequencies we so often think of as bass out of a subwoofer aren't affected? I will trust your statement because I literally just did a test case and found it to be true.

I know on this forum there are a lot of very technical opinions and responders. But not a great number of articles or posts on exactly how you treat a room for standing waves or modes. References are made most often to technical research papers on the subject, but hardly anyone ventures an actual "how to" on the subject. I take that to mean there are no easy answers that can be applied across a wide variety of problems. It looks like room remediation is very specific to the room in question and not much generalization is possible.

Thankfully in my little cube, the bad stuff isn't too bad. At least that is what the measurements show.