Proper way to set subwoofer gain .

[Mark E. Long]

Need input on the proper way to set subwoofer gain in a Yamaha with Yapo. I’ve set the sub gain at -10 like SVS recommended and after running calibration it sets the subs in the avr at -3.5 but I find it is great for movies seriously deep bass but for music and tv content it seems to lack .
With that being said is it better to raise the gain on the subs or in the sub levels in the avr .I’ve read in some blogs it always desirable to not push the avr level trims into the plus side of the 0 db as it can introduce distortion to the signal . I understand this has more than likely been discussed many times before in this forum just looking for info to try a new approach to maximize my subs

Thanks in advance !

 

[lovinthehd]

I prefer using the avr to change sub levels, it's something you can do with a remote control instead of fiddling with the sub itself and always return to the original setting easily (that would be other than yours, as many simply have a dial on a plate amp without even detents for accurate re-positioning during changes); since you have a remote for the sub not much of an issue for you, altho I'd pick one over the other for consistency's sake. Many do like a little boost on the sub from flat; I also tend to make sure and set my subs into the negative trim range to avoid any possible clipping to leave room for a bit of boost. Overall sounds like you're okay with settings, tho.

 

[ryanosaur]

Some other random things I've stumbled upon and additional explanations:
Positive trim levels are Digitally augmented which is why distortion creeps in much more easily. If 0 trim is the full value of the original signal, anything above that is artificially increase.
Your Sub should never be the quietest speaker (ie 0 trim). More likely this would be a surround or atmos speaker.
Common suggestions are to start with Sub Gain at 50% which depending on the Sub and the room, will often be too loud. After that initial setting, it usually seems that Subs end up with gain around 33%.
Audyssey calibrates Subs via manual gain setting to ~75dB before proceeding with automated room correction.
Yamaha is often lauded for its PEQ. You can use that to tailor your Sub response if you choose. Again, just be cautious in boosting anything too much. Every 3dB of boost requires a doubling of power, just like in Amplifiers.
Hope this helps!

 

[Mark E. Long]

I prefer using the avr to change sub levels, it's something you can do with a remote control instead of fiddling with the sub itself and always return to the original setting easily (that would be other than yours, as many simply have a dial on a plate amp without even detents for accurate re-positioning during changes); since you have a remote for the sub not much of an issue for you, altho I'd pick one over the other for consistency's sake. Many do like a little boost on the sub from flat; I also tend to make sure and set my subs into the negative trim range to avoid any possible clipping to leave room for a bit of boost. Overall sounds like you're okay with settings, tho.

These SVS have a pretty cool app that you can do anything with I’ve read in several forums to not go into the positive on the avr cause it could over drive the signal from the avr preout . I’ve not had any problems with my new ones as for movies Yapo seems to have really got them correctly set .
Ive been experimenting with them with music on sacd , dvd audio and Blu-ray concerts etc and kind of need to up the low end on music. I would think raising the gain would be ok too as I can cut the trim level in the avr just wondering what is the ideal way .

 

[ryanosaur]

These SVS have a pretty cool app that you can do anything with I’ve read in several forums to not go into the positive on the avr cause it could over drive the signal from the avr preout . I’ve not had any problems with my new ones as for movies Yapo seems to have really got them correctly set .
Ive been experimenting with them with music on sacd , dvd audio and Blu-ray concerts etc and kind of need to up the low end on music. I would think raising the gain would be ok too as I can cut the trim level in the avr just wondering what is the ideal way .

I would raise the gain and redo YPAO calibration. getting your sub trim in AVR to -7.5 or so is one of those rules of thumb i've seen mentioned frequently.

 

[Trebdp83]

Yamaha suggests the gain knob at halfway mark before running YPAO. Worked well enough when I ran it that way.

 

[lovinthehd]

These SVS have a pretty cool app that you can do anything with I’ve read in several forums to not go into the positive on the avr cause it could over drive the signal from the avr preout . I’ve not had any problems with my new ones as for movies Yapo seems to have really got them correctly set .
Ive been experimenting with them with music on sacd , dvd audio and Blu-ray concerts etc and kind of need to up the low end on music. I would think raising the gain would be ok too as I can cut the trim level in the avr just wondering what is the ideal way .

As long as the gain structure works it doesn't likely matter which one you adjust a bit, but like I said, I'd choose one vs the other for making any changes once original calibration is done. Personally, once I have gain set on a sub to get max use of the sub amp with as low a gain setting on the sub as possible but still put it into the negative range; usually I aim for at least -7, just don't exceed the minimum trim level (on mine would be -12) which would indicate the gain on your sub is too high, I just leave it alone and use the avr for adjustments.

 

[lovinthehd]

Yamaha suggests the gain knob at halfway mark before running YPAO. Worked well enough when I ran it that way.

I think they generally just choose that not knowing what specific sub as a middle point to start from. With almost all my plate amp subs, that turns out to be too high.....

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I would raise the gain and redo YPAO calibration. getting your sub trim in AVR to -7.5 or so is one of those rules of thumb i've seen mentioned frequently.

Yeah this.



Also, I believe your subs, mark, have a music preset. It gives a bump at 63hz for a little extra oomph.

 

[Mark E. Long]

Some other random things I've stumbled upon and additional explanations:
Positive trim levels are Digitally augmented which is why distortion creeps in much more easily. If 0 trim is the full value of the original signal, anything above that is artificially increase.
Your Sub should never be the quietest speaker (ie 0 trim). More likely this would be a surround or atmos speaker.
Common suggestions are to start with Sub Gain at 50% which depending on the Sub and the room, will often be too loud. After that initial setting, it usually seems that Subs end up with gain around 33%.
Audyssey calibrates Subs via manual gain setting to ~75dB before proceeding with automated room correction.
Yamaha is often lauded for its PEQ. You can use that to tailor your Sub response if you choose. Again, just be cautious in boosting anything too much. Every 3dB of boost requires a doubling of power, just like in Amplifiers.
Hope this helps!

Thanks sure does just playing around I think Yapo does the same at 75 db too . I used to level match my old subs after the calibration then rerun it again it helped even them out a lot . With these new SVS subs I followed there sujestions and set the gain on each one at -10 after running Yapo they were within .5 db of being the same Iam not playing with that it’s closer than I can get with a spl meter any day . Just trying to up the levels for music so as to not overdrive the subs .

 

[Pogre]

I don't have any more advice that wasn't already given as far as setting trim levels, tho I agree with HD and use the receiver's trim setting instead of the sub gain to adjust after running setup.

Based on your description of the difference between movies and music I think a good next step might be investing in a Umik and learning to do some measuring. I'll bet you have some nulls and those will be more obvious with music. At least that was my experience. Some measurements will pinpoint what you have going on in your room and you can make some educated adjustments to your fr.

 

[Mark E. Long]

Yamaha suggests the gain knob at halfway mark before running YPAO. Worked well enough when I ran it that way.

Yes it does say that I’ve done that with my old subs it worked pretty well too I may try that with these new ones and see what it does I do like this app for changing settings in these subs so much easier than making a hundred trips to turn the knobs on the old ones . I can’t really complain with how it set them up now at all they sound great .

 

[ryanosaur]

I just want to add a +1 for setting the Sub Gain once and leaving it the F alone thereafter. (At least until you have to run a calibration again, of course.)

 

[Mark E. Long]

I don't have any more advice that wasn't already given as far as setting trim levels, tho I agree with HD and use the receiver's trim setting instead of the sub gain to adjust after running setup.

Based on your description of the difference between movies and music I think a good next step might be investing in a Umik and learning to do some measuring. I'll bet you have some nulls and those will be more obvious with music. At least that was my experience. Some measurements will pinpoint what you have going on in your room and you can make some educated adjustments to your fr.

I’d say your spot on in all you say a room this size with no treatments has got to have nulls somewhere. I’ve been thinking of getting rew and deep dive into tweaking this setup just to see what it can do . Iam not computer friendly tho lol I know you fellas will put forth some help tho . I’ve read several different forums on this subject and very interesting and informative answers on this subject too . I may give the chap at SVS and pick at his knowledge too . But I’ve believe you are correct I’d need to see what’s going on I don’t believe it would be a huge adjustment but I just don’t know where at yet .

 

[TLS Guy]

Need input on the proper way to set subwoofer gain in a Yamaha with Yapo. I’ve set the sub gain at -10 like SVS recommended and after running calibration it sets the subs in the avr at -3.5 but I find it is great for movies seriously deep bass but for music and tv content it seems to lack .
With that being said is it better to raise the gain on the subs or in the sub levels in the avr .I’ve read in some blogs it always desirable to not push the avr level trims into the plus side of the 0 db as it can introduce distortion to the signal . I understand this has more than likely been discussed many times before in this forum just looking for info to try a new approach to maximize my subs

Thanks in advance !

You have to be careful here. There are issues to consider.

Movies have an LFE channel, music sources in general do not. This LFE channel is artificially boosted to make explosions more impressive.

Most music sources have little content in sub range.

I find a lot of commercial speakers with small drivers are weak in the wind in the octave above sub range.

You can not really compensate for this by increasing the sub level. At first it seems as if you can, but you really can't.

The issues surrounding this is very narrow cabinets were increasing amounts of BSC is required as cabinet width decreases.

The consequences are increased load on drivers. However a bigger issue is that compensation requires an impedance drop unless the speaker is active.
Then the manufacturer gets a bad rap for blowing up receivers, which seem increasingly incapable of driving low impedance loads. This is all getting aggravated by cramming too many power amps in one box.

The only way I see out of this very real brick wall is much wider adoption of active speakers. That is the real solution to the issue you raise.

 

[ryanosaur]

How do you have your room set up in the room, and how big is the room? Open to other areas, or closed?

 

[Mark E. Long]

Yeah this.



Also, I believe your subs, mark, have a music preset. It gives a bump at 63hz for a little extra oomph.

That I did not know I’ve seen the presets in the app but I did not know they were preset from the manufacture I figured they had to be configured on there own like a custom deal that the user came up with . I will definitely check that out for sure . The manual is somewhat vague on there uses and they got lots of stuff to play with on this app thanks for that info for sure !

 

[Pogre]

I’d say your spot on in all you say a room this size with no treatments has got to have nulls somewhere. I’ve been thinking of getting rew and deep dive into tweaking this setup just to see what it can do . Iam not computer friendly tho lol I know you fellas will put forth some help tho . I’ve read several different forums on this subject and very interesting and informative answers on this subject too . I may give the chap at SVS and pick at his knowledge too . But I’ve believe you are correct I’d need to see what’s going on I don’t believe it would be a huge adjustment but I just don’t know where at yet .

Yeah, sounds like you have the spl you need, but are still lacking somewhere for music. It was the same here for me.

I've gotten more computer savvy in recent years but I'm pretty far from guru status still. There's a bit of a learning curve but with some trial and error on my end the guys here got me through it. I don't wanna overhype, but... if your situation is like mine you're in for another nice surprise if you get those PB1000 Pros dialed in properly. Maybe even as much as when you went from your old JBLs to what you have now.

I don't think you've leveled up all the way in your subwoofer game quite yet my friend...

 

[ryanosaur]

I don't think you've leveled up all the way with your subwoofer game quite yet my friend...

Not until he has more Subwoofer Sd (radiating area of the cone) than floor space!

 

[TLS Guy]

The other consideration is that the OP reports seriously deep bass on movies. This leads me to believe his sub level is actually correctly set. So increasing the sub level has to risk sub damaging levels for movies.