New Outlaw Model 7220 7- CH Amplifier!

[PENG]

Which one looks the cleanest?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Which one looks the cleanest?

They all look quite busy from the top view. Too bad they don’t have an angle or 3D view.

One thing is for sure, none of them look as horrible as the Denon AVP-A1HD.

It might be an example of where being “over-engineered” with fully balanced circuit (among other things) is a bad idea.

I would rather take the astronomically simpler cleaner single-ended design of the Bryston, Theta, DataSAT/ATI pre-pro any day.

 

[PENG]

They all look quite busy from the top view. Too bad they don’t have an angle or 3D view.

One thing is for sure, none of them look as horrible as the Denon AVP-A1HD.

It might be an example of where being “over-engineered” with fully balanced circuit (among other things) is a bad idea.

I would rather take the astronomically simpler cleaner single-ended design of the Bryston, Theta, DataSAT/ATI pre-pro any day.

I also look at the dangling wires, making them seemed like after thoughts. If well planned ahead during the designed stage, they should not be dangling overhead, side way, or just hidden in a haphazard way.

From the pictures, you can also see why Denon and Marantz, even some Yamaha's, tend to have better XT and SN in general, then the more expensive Anthem and NAD's.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I also look at the dangling wires, making them seemed like after thoughts. If well planned ahead during the designed stage, they should not be dangling overhead, side way, or just hidden in a haphazard way.

From the pictures, you can also see why Denon and Marantz, even some Yamaha's, tend to have better XT and SN in general, then the more expensive Anthem and NAD's.

I’m still wondering when these AV engineers would follow the leads of Theta, DataSAT/ATI, and Bryston and get rid of 99% of these old legacy connectors. Do they think people who can afford $2-4K electronics still use VCRs and cheap DVD players with legacy connectors?

People might also be able to afford dedicated AV rack that can accommodate bigger chassis.

Geez.

 

[PENG]

I’m still wondering when these AV engineers would follow the leads of Theta, DataSAT/ATI, and Bryston and get rid of 99% of these old legacy connectors. Do they think people who can afford $2-4K electronics still use VCRs and cheap DVD players with legacy connectors?

Good point, that's one reason why, at least for AVRs, I prefer Denon. I disagree with you slightly though. To me, people who aim for the midrange models such as the RX-A1000 sereis, Marantz SR4000/5000 series will be even less likely to need legacy connectors and definitely not multichannel analog preouts.

On exception, I think a lot of people still need component video and of course it will be years before they give up on the analog rca inputs.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Good point, that's one reason why, at least for AVRs, I prefer Denon. I disagree with you slightly though. To me, people who aim for the midrange models such as the RX-A1000 sereis, Marantz SR4000/5000 series will be even less likely to need legacy connectors and definitely not multichannel analog preouts.

On exception, I think a lot of people still need component video and of course it will be years before they give up on the analog rca inputs.

Just give people 1 RCA, 1 Component, 1 Optical, 1 Coax, not 4 sets of each.

Bigger cases and less parts like a good breathing interior of a well custom built PC or like the Theta, DataSAT, Bryston.

The little Cheap Outlaw pre-pro looks clean too, except for those bent caps.

But maybe they make them dirty and complex for one reason - so these things fail after the warranty is over and make people buy new AVP.

 

[PENG]

How clean and well layout obviously do not determine the final SN and cross talk scores, but it surely shouldn't hurt. Being curious, I checked my list of 63 AVRs bench tested by S&V and sorted them by SN and XT. The results are:

Of the 63 tested by S&V/HT(before the merge), 51 had measurements for both XT and SN.

Sort by SN, the top 10 are:
AVR-4810CI, AVR-4310CI, AVR-2311CI, SR6006, AVR-X3400H, AVR-5308CI, CXR120, TX-RZ610, MRX1120,RX-A1010

Sort by XT:
AVR-5308CI, AVR-X7200W, AVR-X5200W, TX-RZ610, DTR-8.8, TX-SR805, STR-DN1060, AVR-4310CI, DTR-9.9, TX-NR5008

Sort by SN, then XT, and expand the list to include the top 15 of the 51 units tested:

Now there is one NAD, the T747 in the 12 th place, the Denon AVR-3312CI squeezed into the 11th place, and the entry level Denon AVR-1913 got the 13 th place, followed by the AVR-X7200W in 14th. The difference in SN between the 10th and 15th were in the second decimal point (i.e. less than 1 dB).

I am going to do the same using the AH bench test results. It will take a while because Gene's bench tests involved more metrics and more specifics about the test conditions. It's going to be a time consuming exercise.

 

[Verdinut]

Which one looks the cleanest?

To me, the Yamaha seems to be the cleanest.

 

[Verdinut]

I also look at the dangling wires, making them seemed like after thoughts. If well planned ahead during the designed stage, they should not be dangling overhead, side way, or just hidden in a haphazard way.

From the pictures, you can also see why Denon and Marantz, even some Yamaha's, tend to have better XT and SN in general, then the more expensive Anthem and NAD's.

What does XT stand for?

 

[PENG]

What does XT stand for?

Cross talk.

 

[PENG]

To me, the Yamaha seems to be the cleanest.

I thought the Denon was, especially if you take into account that it has 4 more channels to deal with. I like the way the layer the prepro circuit boards. Both have the power amp modules layout symmetrically. Marantz too, but those (just a few) dangling wires spoiled it for me, just a little..

 

[Irvrobinson]

I also look at the dangling wires, making them seemed like after thoughts. If well planned ahead during the designed stage, they should not be dangling overhead, side way, or just hidden in a haphazard way.

And cheap, friction-fit, crimp-on jumper connectors. PCBs so thin you can bend them with your finger. RCA sockets mechanically attached to PCBs rather than the back panel. Chassis metal with sharp edges. Really bright blue or red status LEDs.

 

[Verdinut]

Cross talk.

I am inclined to question the attention that is paid to that specification. It indicates mixing level of the signal from various channels, but in a concert hall or a recording studio, the microphones pick up the sound of nearby microphones which involves a lot more XT. So what is the pertinence of that spec? Could you elaborate?

 

[Irvrobinson]

I am inclined to question the attention that is paid to that specification. It indicates mixing level of the signal from various channels, but in a concert hall or a recording studio, the microphones pick up the sound of nearby microphones which involves a lot more XT. So what is the pertinence of that spec? Could you elaborate?

I mostly ignore it too, since most modern electronics have crosstalk at least 60db down from the primary signal. But, I suppose, a really bad design might have crosstalk in the -40db range, and that could make an audible difference.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

I see the point. It makes perfect sense to me to keep the number of parts and the design layout as clean as possible.

After doing an autopsy on my dead AVP-A1HDCI, I can appreciate clean simple layout design with minimal parts.

ATI, Theta, DataSAT seem to have clean, simple, minimalist layout.

I haven't seen the internals of Bryston, but I bet they also have clean, simple minimalist layout.

I need to find some pictures of the Bryston pre-pro and see if it looks simple and clean, unlike the AVP-A1HDCI.

Bryston

Theta Digital

Denon

WTF.

Not sure if the Anthem D2 pre-pro is much better than the Denon. Maybe a little.

Regardless of design, I still think they all charge too much for their product.

 

[PENG]

They all look quite busy from the top view. Too bad they don’t have an angle or 3D view.

Some near 3 D ones here:

https://www.stereo.net.au/news/denons-flagship-132-channel-av-amplifier-available-this-month

 

[PENG]

I am inclined to question the attention that is paid to that specification. It indicates mixing level of the signal from various channels, but in a concert hall or a recording studio, the microphones pick up the sound of nearby microphones which involves a lot more XT. So what is the pertinence of that spec? Could you elaborate?

No I don't believe they are important at all in terms of audibility. I am more interested in the "why" part because depending on the reasons, there may be something else that could affect sound quality. Take THD+N as example. I am fine with 0.1%, but prefer to go with 0.01% because I believe at the lower level, the arguments using the contents of the harmonics, such as odd vs even, higher order vs lower orders etc., become less important.

For argument sake, you can take you argument further and say, if the THD+N, over 20-20,000 Hz, from 0.1 watt to rated output watts, into 8 or 4 ohms, is below 0.01%, then don't worry about the contents of the harmonics, but you probably can't say that it is at 1% or even 0.5%. Likewise, if SN A weighting is above 110 dB, or above 90 dB unweighted, and XT is better than 80 dB, I felt like I can sleep better whether I can hear the effects or not. So while I agree XT of 60 dB should be as good as XT of 80 dB, I want to know the reasons why some manufacturers manage to get higher scores consistently while some manage the opposite. I still don't know why, but at least I know the differences exist among the units tested.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Inter

Some near 3 D ones here:

https://www.stereo.net.au/news/denons-flagship-132-channel-av-amplifier-available-this-month

Interior pics of the AVR8500 reminds me of the AVP-A1HDCI. Even if it's packed neatly, there's way too many layers of circuit boards.

And all these pics give the separates 2Ch group ammunition to bash the AVRs and AVPs like the AVP-A1HDCI.

I guess if people want a high quality simple clean design component, they have to either stick to high-end 2CH analog preamps or $10K-20K AVPs from DataSAT, ATI, Theta, or Bryston.

I am hoping the Yamaha CX-A5100 and the upcoming CX-A5200 AVPs will last longer than 8 YR.

 

[PENG]

Inter

Interior pics of the AVR8500 reminds me of the AVP-A1HDCI. Even if it's packed neatly, there's way too many layers of circuit boards.

And all these pics give the separates 2Ch group ammunition to bash the AVRs and AVPs like the AVP-A1HDCI.

I guess if people want a high quality simple clean design component, they have to either stick to high-end 2CH analog preamps or $10K-20K AVPs from DataSAT, ATI, Theta, or Bryston.

I am hoping the Yamaha CX-A5100 and the upcoming CX-A5200 AVPs will last longer than 8 YR.

I hope so too, but I bet chances are good that it won't be much better. It still packs 11 channel of processing/amplification(preamp) in the rear half of the box. The main difference is in the front half (roughly),the AVR has a bigger transformer and heat sinks. So if you can manage the heat with an external fan, I would argue that the AVR suffers insignificant, if any disadvantages compared to the AVP.

IMO, the "jammed pack" related issue is not solved by going with separate AVP and Power amp because the power amp side of AVRs are relatively simple, and much more trouble free if well cooled/ventilated. The separate way has the advantage that if it failed, you only have to replace it with another AVP, but then most AVP still cost more than comparable AVRs cost, that's why instead of going with a cheaper prepro, I decided to go with a more affordable AVR and use it as prepro. Of course, ymmv.., I have tried 2 prepros already, both trouble free one is approaching the 8 year mark so I am just being proactive.

RX-A3070

CX-A5100

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

CX-A5100
View attachment 25419

I assume the big board on top is the HDMI board. I would like to know how many circuit boards does it have? Hopefully nowhere near as many boards as the AVP-A1.

One quick thing I noticed was that the CX-A5100 operates about 200% cooler than the AVP-A1 and any Denon AVR I've ever seen.

The CX-A5100 chassis temp is similar to the ATI AT2005 amp.

The CX-A5200 (I assume that's the official name) should be coming out this Nov-Dec. Hopefully it doesn't have 13.2 CH like the Denon 8500 and doesn't have SIX sets of RCA, 4 sets of Component, 2 Coax, 2 Optical connectors, and the kitchen sink like the 8500.