New Outlaw Model 7220 7- CH Amplifier!

[lovinthehd]

Yeah it certainly does. But, as Jeff Goldbloom says in that commercial "Change your apartment change the world"...........LOL!!!!! No really, I would never need an amp like the 7220. Really don't care to listen at absurd levels to begin with. Nothing wrong with more power per se, but I am much more into SQ than SPL. Guess I am just getting too old for some things.


Cheers,

Phil

No worries Phil, always good to just do what you need to/want to. Me, I do like the multich thing but no longer want spl levels my avr can't provide....but if I had the appropriate fully differential preamp with balanced pre-outs, that would be a top consideration for amp!

 

[Verdinut]

I won't be running anything b/c I am not a HT guy. Nor do I listen to multi-channel music. Even if I had use for this beast, it is still a bit too pricey for my budget. It certainly is a looker though. However, the Model 5000 would be all I would ever need. Still say it is one of the best amp deals going.


Cheers,

Phil

@Phil,

You said that you don't listen to multi-channel music. So why would you purchase a 5-channel power amp?

IMO, you would do just as well with a good 2 channel (or 4-channel if you choose to bi-amp) pro amplifier such as one of the QSC DCA series amps. I am using four of those amps in my system and these have outstanding specs. Moreover, you can't blow them up.

Here are the elaborate specs: https://www.qsc.com/cinema/products/power-amplifiers/dca-series/dca-1222/

Cheers,

André

 

[SCG]

I got them to extend the sale since I did this write up. You're welcome

U Da Man! Many Thanks for getting the deal extended, now if only you could use your super powers to get it reviewed before the 12th to confirm it's the juggernaut we all know and expect it to be

 

[SCG]

The 7220 is a true balanced amplifier from input to output. As far as we know, the 7220 is the least expensive fully differential multi-channel amplifier on the market...and I absolutely love the fact that it's a fully differential design from input to output. This is how the very best amplifiers are designed whether your doing telcom communications requiring very low noise floor and distortion, or to extract all of the resolution from the very best home theater systems.

Based on my EE degree and work in the electronic field I also understand that a fully differential design from input to output is the very best design for the reasons you stated.

Bryston is a well respective highend and professional amp manufacturer and has this to say on thier FAQ website:

http://www.bryston.com/pages/faq.html

One question which keeps coming up over and over is the controversy regarding audio components being "fully balanced" versus what is sometimes referred to as "balanced converting to single ended" or "differential amplifier balancing".

Popular mythology has seen fit to 'bless' the concept of 'fully-balanced' This approach completely misses the point, which is, of course, to eliminate hum and noise picked up by the audio cables feeding the component.

The reason for this is that a differential amplifier ‘rejects any common-mode noise’ which appears at its input, by a factor equal to its common-mode rejection ratio (normally over 1000:1). A 'fully-balanced' circuit has a common-mode rejection ratio of precisely zero, since all signal, common-mode or not, is simply amplified and passed along via the two signal paths. It then remains up to the following component to attempt to reject that amplified noise, if it has a differential amplifier.

Thus, fully-balanced circuitry passes along any noise which might be picked up on the cables. Then it hits the final component in the system, usually the power amp, where the differential amplifier at its input is left to deal with the sum total of the common mode noise in the signal path (multiplied by all the gain in the system). If each component (source, preamp, electronic crossover, power amp) had its own differential amplifier input, it would cancel any common-mode noise which appeared ahead of it, rather than amplifying it.

All the above simply points out that what has been called fully balanced circuitry has a host of disadvantages, from cost to noise overload, to complexity and reduction in reliability. It has no useful advantages in the digital or analog signal chain beyond the microphone preamp. Bryston audio components all operate their balanced inputs on ‘differential amplifier technology’.

Gene, I respect your knowledge and wanted to know your thoughts on this matter, I know this has also been bantered around in the Monolith forums. Sorry if this has already been covered and for the long cut and paste but I don't have linked posting privileges yet.

 

[speakerman39]

@Phil,

You said that you don't listen to multi-channel music. So why would you purchase a 5-channel power amp?

IMO, you would do just as well with a good 2 channel (or 4-channel if you choose to bi-amp) pro amplifier such as one of the QSC DCA series amps. I am using four of those amps in my system and these have outstanding specs. Moreover, you can't blow them up.

Here are the elaborate specs: https://www.qsc.com/cinema/products/power-amplifiers/dca-series/dca-1222/

Cheers,

André

Andre, my only interest in HT is a set of fronts with a center channel speaker. Mainly just to improve dialogue intelligibility when watching my 4K TV. However, I pretty much do all of my music listening at my desktop. Hence, my interest in the Model 5000 is merely b/c of what it offers for the price. That is, even if only using it to power 2 Channels.

Right now I can't buy anything. Lots going on here on my end. Until things settle down more I am not buying anything. But, have been narrowing things down slowly but surely. Just wished I could order me a set of the BMR's and a Parasound 2 CH amp and be done with it. Like always, that is not going to happen anytime soon.

Have a new room and man is it ever laid out funny. Certainly not audio friendly so to speak. Have my TV and computer desk placed very close to each other. As such, I have to decide if I will use only a set of speakers for my music listening -OR-the typical front setup like a HT w/a center channel. However, I kind of have gotten used to listening to my music in the near-field and chances are real good that is the way it will stay. Thus, either way the Model 5000 is in high contention for my needs.


Cheers,

Phil

 

[Schrodinger23]

Looking for a cool new amplifier with enough power to blow you away? The new Model 7220 seven channel amplifier from Outlaw Audio may be your answer. This class AB, fully balanced, differential design is rated to deliver 220W per channel into an 8-ohm load with ALL seven channels driven. Outlaw Audio teamed up with ATI Audio technologies to develop a powerful linear amplifier into a moderately heavy unit without the use of massive heat sinks. Read on to find out how this amplifier stays cool enough for Mr. Freeze.

View attachment 25277

Read: Outlaw Model 7220 7CH Amplifier Detailed Info

Outlaw wants us to bench test it, but I'm really backlogged right now so this will have to wait until next year. However, I spent considerable time reviewing the design specifications with ATI/Outlaw to get some important design details.

This amp looks like the real deal! Emotiva stop quaking

Are the new Monoprice Monolith Amps with XLR outputs fully balanced?

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=14566&gclid=CjwKCAjwhqXbBRAREiwAucoo-z4vKYoeC-HyY4YlsP_gs_aTawwzVF3Q19rXHGlb4hhvdlywGVOZ0RoCglUQAvD_BwE#QuestionsandAnswers

 

[PENG]

Based on my EE degree and work in the electronic field I also understand that a fully differential design from input to output is the very best design for the reasons you stated.

Bryston is a well respective highend and professional amp manufacturer and has this to say on thier FAQ website:

http://www.bryston.com/pages/faq.html



Gene, I respect your knowledge and wanted to know your thoughts on this matter, I know this has also been bantered around in the Monolith forums. Sorry if this has already been covered and for the long cut and paste but I don't have linked posting privileges yet.

It seems to me Bryston's FAQ tried to explain the difference between what they called "fully balance" and "differential amplifier balancing". In doing so, I suspect they might have further confused the issue as they seemed to perceive the term "fully balance" differently than other experts in the field do.

ATI does not used the term "fully balance" at all, but then they used the perhaps equally ambiguous term "Pure balance", though if you read the whole thing, you will know they clearly meant "differential drive amplifier". A lot of those online debates could have been avoided if people use the same terminologies defined the same way. I prefer the term "differential" because it is inherently clearer and more specific, than "balance".

 

[gene]

Are the new Monoprice Monolith Amps with XLR outputs fully balanced?

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=14566&gclid=CjwKCAjwhqXbBRAREiwAucoo-z4vKYoeC-HyY4YlsP_gs_aTawwzVF3Q19rXHGlb4hhvdlywGVOZ0RoCglUQAvD_BwE#QuestionsandAnswers

No they aren't.

 

[gene]

Based on my EE degree and work in the electronic field I also understand that a fully differential design from input to output is the very best design for the reasons you stated.

Bryston is a well respective highend and professional amp manufacturer and has this to say on thier FAQ website:

http://www.bryston.com/pages/faq.html



Gene, I respect your knowledge and wanted to know your thoughts on this matter, I know this has also been bantered around in the Monolith forums. Sorry if this has already been covered and for the long cut and paste but I don't have linked posting privileges yet.

I haven't read the Bryston FAQ on amplifiers but anyone arguing that a fully differential design is at a disadvantage to a single ended design other than increased circuit complexity and parts cost needs to be taken with a grain of salt. State of the art amplification for small signal applications requiring ultra low noise and distortion. The very best test equipment to measure amplifier performance is fully differential design.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I don’t mind if it’s fully balanced as long as it’s done exceptionally well and can last 20+ years.

What I do mind is if it’s fully balanced plus a million other things at the expense of reliability - like how some people horseshoe a million parts into a ridiculously tight space and hope nothing ever goes wrong.

I would take an extremely well laid-out single-ended component over a poorly laid-out fully balanced component any time.

 

[PENG]

I don’t mind if it’s fully balanced as long as it’s done exceptionally well and can last 20+ years.

What I do mind is if it’s fully balanced plus a million other things at the expense of reliability - like how some people horseshoe a million parts into a ridiculously tight space and hope nothing ever goes wrong.

I would take an extremely well laid-out single-ended component over a poorly laid-out fully balanced component any time.

I wonder if that's why Bryston offers "fully balanced/Differential amplifier balancing input through output" in their monoblock SST2/3 lines (e.g. 7B,14B,28B SST2) only.

 

[RichB]

ATI has described the AT2000/3000 as balanced bridged which may be what Bryston calls" "differential amplifier balancing".

The AT6000 series are described here: http://ati-amp.com/AT6000.php

1. As in Kessler’s previous top-of-the-line designs, these amplifiers are fully balanced, differential amps, but unlike his earlier balanced designs which were essentially balanced bridged amplifiers, the 6000 series uses only a single input stage with dual-differential output stages. The reason: the advantages of balanced designs are retained and noise is reduced by 50%.

The ATI AT6000/AT4000 and AT3000/AT3000 are what ATI calls "Pure Balanced", although different architectures.

- Rich

 

[Irvrobinson]

ATI has described the AT2000/3000 as balanced bridged which may be what Bryston calls" "differential amplifier balancing".

The AT6000 series are described here: http://ati-amp.com/AT6000.php

1. As in Kessler’s previous top-of-the-line designs, these amplifiers are fully balanced, differential amps, but unlike his earlier balanced designs which were essentially balanced bridged amplifiers, the 6000 series uses only a single input stage with dual-differential output stages. The reason: the advantages of balanced designs are retained and noise is reduced by 50%.

The ATI AT6000/AT4000 and AT3000/AT3000 are what ATI calls "Pure Balanced", although different architectures.

- Rich

As I've posted before, ATI's description of the AT6000/4000 is a bit confusing. I'm not sure what "a single input stage" means. A single balanced input stage, or a single single-ended input stage? If the 4000/6000 input stage is balanced, does that mean the 3000/2000 input stage is quad-balanced (dual-differential)? IMO, all of this topology discussion is useless without specific facts. In general, balanced topologies are always better, but do dual-differential circuits really buy you anything in audio amplifiers over standard differential output stage designs? Yes. Measurable? Yes. Audible? I doubt it. Personally, I think a little less of ATI for the obscure marketing-speak, and especially for that dumb signature on the faceplate.

 

[gene]

As I've posted before, ATI's description of the AT6000/4000 is a bit confusing. I'm not sure what "a single input stage" means. A single balanced input stage, or a single single-ended input stage? If the 4000/6000 input stage is balanced, does that mean the 3000/2000 input stage is quad-balanced (dual-differential)? IMO, all of this topology discussion is useless without specific facts. In general, balanced topologies are always better, but do dual-differential circuits really buy you anything in audio amplifiers over standard differential output stage designs? Yes. Measurable? Yes. Audible? I doubt it. Personally, I think a little less of ATI for the obscure marketing-speak, and especially for that dumb signature on the faceplate.

Measurability yes, audibility, probably no,t as you indicated. I've heard plenty of great sounding single ended amplifiers but admittedly I'm 44 yr's old now and my ears aren't quite up to what they were 20 years ago. Thankfully my test gear is and tells me what is actually measurable

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I wonder if that's why Bryston offers "fully balanced/Differential amplifier balancing input through output" in their monoblock SST2/3 lines (e.g. 7B,14B,28B SST2) only.

Is the design/layout/workmanship of the Bryston single-ended amps as good or better/cleaner than the ATI fully balanced amps?

 

[PENG]

Is the design/layout/workmanship of the Bryston single-ended amps as good or better/cleaner than the ATI fully balanced amps?

I haven't seen the internals of their mono blocks. If you read their website stuff, they seem to be concerned about the increased parts/components for the fully differential drive input through output schemes and since they do offer real 20 years transferable warranty, I thought it would be a valid concern.

So my rationale is based on: a) they most likely has a higher profit margin on their mono blocks, b) there are typically more room for the additional parts, than the two channel boxes and c) the increased probability of failure due to the additional/almost doubling parts will be theoretically near 0 because they have only one channel.

That is just my rational, almost a pure guess.

 

[Andrein]

I haven't seen the internals of their mono blocks. If you read their website stuff, they seem to be concerned about the increased parts/components for the fully differential drive input through output schemes and since they do offer real 20 years transferable warranty, I thought it would be a valid concern.
So my rationale is based on: a) they most likely has a higher profit margin on their mono blocks, b) there are typically more room for the additional parts, than the two channel boxes and c) the increased probability of failure due to the additional/almost doubling parts will be theoretically near 0 because they have only one channel.
That is just my rational, almost a pure guess.

On another hand when you have multiple independent monoblocks the probability of failing the entire system is a product of numbers (multiply) of probabilities of failing a single channel, as monoblocks completely independent. So, i am not sure the monoblocks are more reliable from that point of view. Though it is pure theory too as we dont have the real numbers and it is not apple to apple comparisson.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Measurability yes, audibility, probably no,t as you indicated. I've heard plenty of great sounding single ended amplifiers but admittedly I'm 44 yr's old now and my ears aren't quite up to what they were 20 years ago. Thankfully my test gear is and tells me what is actually measurable

44? You're a young-un compared to some of us. I like your test gear too; I'd just like to see you use it more. Yes, I know, I sound like I'm in a repeat loop about that.

 

[PENG]

On another hand when you have multiple independent monoblocks the probability of failing the entire system is a product of numbers (multiply) of probabilities of failing a single channel, as monoblocks completely independent. So, i am not sure the monoblocks are more reliable from that point of view. Though it is pure theory too as we dont have the real numbers and it is not apple to apple comparisson.

I was waiting for someone to make this point.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I haven't seen the internals of their mono blocks. If you read their website stuff, they seem to be concerned about the increased parts/components for the fully differential drive input through output schemes and since they do offer real 20 years transferable warranty, I thought it would be a valid concern.

So my rationale is based on: a) they most likely has a higher profit margin on their mono blocks, b) there are typically more room for the additional parts, than the two channel boxes and c) the increased probability of failure due to the additional/almost doubling parts will be theoretically near 0 because they have only one channel.

That is just my rational, almost a pure guess.

I see the point. It makes perfect sense to me to keep the number of parts and the design layout as clean as possible.

After doing an autopsy on my dead AVP-A1HDCI, I can appreciate clean simple layout design with minimal parts.

ATI, Theta, DataSAT seem to have clean, simple, minimalist layout.

I haven't seen the internals of Bryston, but I bet they also have clean, simple minimalist layout.

I need to find some pictures of the Bryston pre-pro and see if it looks simple and clean, unlike the AVP-A1HDCI.

Bryston

Theta Digital

Denon

WTF.

Not sure if the Anthem D2 pre-pro is much better than the Denon. Maybe a little.