How Do You Buy High-End Speakers?

[ImcLoud]

I've listened to a few ID companies products. They are not such a bargains as people think. It's like, they charge full retail for what you're getting. There would be very few if any that I would buy from. The Phil 3's I've listened to, which is a great speaker, but it's no bargain, neither is the Salk Center (on a good day I'd spend $500 on it), to me these companies are getting full price for what they sell you (they are great speakers now, I am not trying to knock them) but no bargain. And some highly recommended brands are pure crap as far as I am concerned. My fried Alex (fuzz) had one highly recommended sub (for not too long) and I said to him ,you've got to be kidding me, this is what people rave about? Let's put it this way, he didn't disagree with me. My self I can do with out ID companies and get a lot better value for my money, but than again it all depends on who or what you know. Like mentioned on one of the above posts, manufacturing cost is about 15 percent of retail pricing, and that's for a good speaker with high quality components, less with cheaper parts. And some of these ID amps that are being pushed on people, you've got to be kidding me. I looked at the rear of one of these hot amps that everybody is going for, all I can say is cheap, cheap, cheap. But what ever rocks your boat and people are happy that's all that matters, doesn't it. My neighbor bought a ID system a while back and asked me what I thought, I said do him "do you have any doubts", response was: well it's so highly recommend so it must be good. My response was: well it must be then. If 1000 people say it great, so it must be great. I just don't hear it. IMO most ID companies are a total rip off. A friend of mine has a very nice store in NC. and his favorite speakers are Def Techs and Golden Ear. He's telling me that he can blow them out at 50% off retail and still make a fortune.

I can't see bunching all ID companies together... FOR EXAMPLE.. I think Aperion is a big rip off, I have heard the entire line, and they are over priced crap, TO ME, that is, if someone bought them and loves them, then who cares what I think, or any of us for that matter, if some one likes the sound of the parts express cheapO bookshelf over a pair of $10,000 bookshelfs that on paper look like they sound like an angel orgy, then good for them, they should buy the $50 speaker no matter what their budget is...

Heres the thing to think about, we buy audio equipment for the entire experience, aesthetics, sound, status, durability, ect... If I am building a system for a room that a certain speaker fits into the decor perfectly, I may overlook another speaker that maybe had a better midrange but was super ugly... We all have our priorities, I know my rooms would sound better with egg cartons glued to the ceilings and walls, and big bass traps throughout all the corners, but I have to live here, I don't want to look at that stuff so I don't install it, I will live with the acoustics how they are, not to have ugly crap all over the walls...

As fas as ID companies and commercially available products, again its what the end user wants, if he likes the thought of buying direct then that should help effect his decision, if he wants a big corporation behind his purchase and a store front with the personal service {in person} then buy something available locally {these places are hard to find as of late, and you are limited to what they offer}... It just all depends on the end user and his "wants", its that simple..
I have heard many speakers that I thought sounded great and were priced right BUT I didn't like the look of so would never consider for my own home... I have also bought speakers that I don't care what they look like, for example my ascend/HSU 5.2 setup, its ugly, black vinyl covered boxes, kind of large, nothing fancy.. But they sound great for the money and they are in a room that only my family uses, in that room sound and price were more important to me than aesthetics and presentation...

Walters micon system for example, it could sound fantastic but it is not very visually appealing, the light wood, big boxy cabinets, giant center channel, lack of grills {not sure if they have grills I haven't seen a a pic of them with a set}, ect. would be a turn off for me, then of course the price would be the second nail in that casket, lol I am cheap...

When spending a lot of money {comparatively, "a lot" can be $50 to someone making $14 an hour but that could be lunch for another person}, make sure you test everything in your price range, look them over, make sure they fit all of your preferences and sound appealing to you, its that simple... I also factor in resale value since I change stuff around all the time, but that is up to the buyer and what he wants or expects from the system....

We all have different likes, wants, preferences, ect.. So when we give advice on here no one is wrong as long as they are honest and don't let their personal biases weigh their recommendations too much, for example if you spent $15K on a system and because of that nothing that costs less can sound better, well you need to realize that you have a bias, most likely there is a lot of stuff better for less, but because you spent X amount your brain may not allow you to be as open minded to equipment costing less as you should be....

When it comes to HT, I personally think anyone spending a ton of money on equipment, shouldn't.. lol.. Get a nice sub or set of subs, some decent bookshelfs for the front end and surrounds. If you think you can "critically" listen to a movie like you do music, you are borderline insane , lol , but we all have different preferences, for example some people want to listen LOUD, to me, sure Ill pump a movie up here and there, but it takes away from the enjoyment of music, unless i am at a concert, I don't want to wake up with a headache, music can be enjoyed much more {imo} at a reasonable lever vs 105+db, lol.. I have noticed if you feel like you keep needing to turn up the volue, you need better speakers, when I listen to some speakers I keep turning it up, and up, and up and then I realize no matter how loud it is, its NOT going to sound good, you are turning it up to get more from something that doesn't have "it".....

 

[TLS Guy]

You got a very nice convertor. Combined with the PC it would indeed be very hard to beat. Along with all that equipment...
I'm actually thinking of getting a convertor although not the same brand as you after treating the room properly eventually.

Although I would will only be using it for DA purposes. Love the looks of those SEAS drivers. Don't cover them up

If you want to have drivers ruined leave them exposed! I have six grandchildren and another on the way!

Are you referring to the RME DAC? This is used for the audio workstation.

The audio workstation is the tall case. The HTPC is directly left of the tower in the rack to the right. The HTPC does not use the RME. The mother board uses an Intel chip those does audio and video processing and is connected directly the the Marantz pre pro via HDMI.

So there are two computers in the system with defined functions.

This is the HTPC

I think these are the drivers you are referring to.

Frequency response.

Impulse response.

 

[herbu]

because you spent X amount your brain may not allow you to be as open minded to equipment costing less

However, the inverse is fallacy...

anyone spending a ton of money on equipment, shouldn't

 

[mwmkravchenko]

Interesting graph.

Is that presence peak there at the listening position or just at the measurement position?

Sometimes what is on axis disappears in the off axis.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yes, but they have to worry about things I don't, especially in the area of marketing, perceived consumer preference etc.

In other words I can and do do things that would be commercial suicide. As I have told you many times DIY is about making better equipment. In the case of speakers, much better.

It does not end there. There is no commercial equivalent of my HTPC. It outperforms any commercial product I know of for enjoying what is out on the NET. I now use that far more then any other front end.

I'm sure you believe everything you do is better than everyone else.

I'm sure the chief engineers for RBH, Revel, KEF, etc., wholehearted believe their speakers are better than yours.

A few of the best speaker designers and engineers (like Dave for Ascend speakers or Dennis for Philharmonic/Salk) are more humble and they don't pontificate how their speakers are better than everyone else who isn't DIY (RBH, Revel, KEF, TAD, etc.).

BTW, here is a picture of my 2 HTPCs I built (I've built over 10 over the years). Each HTPC has potential for 24TB HDD + 1 SSD. They are definitely better than anything out there.

I use them for 100% of everything. No need for BD players, CD players, or any other players.

 

[c2k]

It looks like an Asus board in your hptc one of the z87s?. Those kids will love touching those shiny phase plugs.

Those APC stabilize voltage as well other tham just backup power I think. You sure take good care of your equipment.

 

[TLS Guy]

Interesting graph.

Is that presence peak there at the listening position or just at the measurement position?

Sometimes what is on axis disappears in the off axis.

It does, but the peak is small. From 100 Hz to 1 KHz it is 95 to 97.5 db and falls to 94 db at 2 K Hz and 98 db at 4.5 K Hz. I suspect this is a residual of the break up mode of the 7" drivers, which peaks right at that point.

However the speaker is in no way sibilant, and does not sound forward at all. The sound stage is behind the plane of the speakers and not pulled forward.

At 2.75 msec you can see some retained energy in a panel. I don't hear it though. I'm certainly not inclined to pull the speakers apart.

The +/- 2.5 db S squiggle between 35 and 60 Hz is the hand over region of the ports of the two lines. That was the tricky part getting it that good. The lines are damped to the point of getting just one peak of impedance. So the lines are critically damped but still provide driver reinforcement from 20 Hz to around 100 Hz. The lower octaves are incredibly real, just like live in fact.

As you well know you never get 100% on a speaker.

The bottom line is that I find this system extraordinarily realistic and does not offend to make me want to tinker further. I just enjoy them now.

 

[c2k]

Acu.

24TBs of HDDs better have some redundancy and bit error correction asumming a 4U size you should be able to fit 96TB Each.

 

[TLS Guy]

I'm sure you believe everything you do is better than everyone else.

I'm sure the chief engineers for RBH, Revel, KEF, etc., wholehearted believe their speakers are better than yours.

A few of the best speaker designers and engineers (like Dave for Ascend speakers or Dennis for Philharmonic/Salk) are more humble and they don't pontificate how their speakers are better than everyone else who isn't DIY (RBH, Revel, KEF, TAD, etc.).

BTW, here is a picture of my 2 HTPCs I built (I've built over 10 over the years). Each HTPC has potential for 24TB HDD + 1 SSD. They are definitely better than anything out there.

I use them for 100% of everything. No need for BD players, CD players, or any other players.

You make my point that DIY is often the best way to go.

Also, I would be pretty confident that those guys you reference would make significant changes if there was not the factor of a definite price point for the product. That really is the issue. I have a luxury they don't and that's the point.

 

[ImcLoud]

However, the inverse is fallacy...

you lost me at "inverse"...

I don't see the point in spending a lot of money on HT systems, of course we all have preferences some of you guys may not see the point in spending $60K on a rifle, $25K on a baseball, $30K on a comic book, or $160K on a backhoe where I think nothing of it {or not much anyway}... I can enjoy a movie the same with $1200 speakers are $90K speakers, I don't listen loud, maybe 87db some action flicks 90+, as long as its clean clear and nuetral with no fatiguing highs, I am happy... Now music is another story, I want ot get as much out of it as possible, and its possible because a lot of it is recorded well {not all of it}, but even some of the worse music recordings are better than the best movie scenes, lol.. i have been on the set of a few movies when being filmed, once we were standing on the top of a land fill with the wind blowing the mics over!!! They are not recorded in a studio, lol {unless animated and a couple other specific situations that allow for it}... So I don't see the point in super accurate speakers for HT, unless you want the name, the look, or hae one system for music and movies...

 

[walter duque]

I can't see bunching all ID companies together... FOR EXAMPLE.. I think Aperion is a big rip off, I have heard the entire line, and they are over priced crap, TO ME, that is, if someone bought them and loves them, then who cares what I think, or any of us for that matter, if some one likes the sound of the parts express cheapO bookshelf over a pair of $10,000 bookshelfs that on paper look like they sound like an angel orgy, then good for them, they should buy the $50 speaker no matter what their budget is...

Heres the thing to think about, we buy audio equipment for the entire experience, aesthetics, sound, status, durability, ect... If I am building a system for a room that a certain speaker fits into the decor perfectly, I may overlook another speaker that maybe had a better midrange but was super ugly... We all have our priorities, I know my rooms would sound better with egg cartons glued to the ceilings and walls, and big bass traps throughout all the corners, but I have to live here, I don't want to look at that stuff so I don't install it, I will live with the acoustics how they are, not to have ugly crap all over the walls...

As fas as ID companies and commercially available products, again its what the end user wants, if he likes the thought of buying direct then that should help effect his decision, if he wants a big corporation behind his purchase and a store front with the personal service {in person} then buy something available locally {these places are hard to find as of late, and you are limited to what they offer}... It just all depends on the end user and his "wants", its that simple..
I have heard many speakers that I thought sounded great and were priced right BUT I didn't like the look of so would never consider for my own home... I have also bought speakers that I don't care what they look like, for example my ascend/HSU 5.2 setup, its ugly, black vinyl covered boxes, kind of large, nothing fancy.. But they sound great for the money and they are in a room that only my family uses, in that room sound and price were more important to me than aesthetics and presentation...

Walters micon system for example, it could sound fantastic but it is not very visually appealing, the light wood, big boxy cabinets, giant center channel, lack of grills {not sure if they have grills I haven't seen a a pic of them with a set}, ect. would be a turn off for me, then of course the price would be the second nail in that casket, lol I am cheap...

When spending a lot of money {comparatively, "a lot" can be $50 to someone making $14 an hour but that could be lunch for another person}, make sure you test everything in your price range, look them over, make sure they fit all of your preferences and sound appealing to you, its that simple... I also factor in resale value since I change stuff around all the time, but that is up to the buyer and what he wants or expects from the system....

We all have different likes, wants, preferences, ect.. So when we give advice on here no one is wrong as long as they are honest and don't let their personal biases weigh their recommendations too much, for example if you spent $15K on a system and because of that nothing that costs less can sound better, well you need to realize that you have a bias, most likely there is a lot of stuff better for less, but because you spent X amount your brain may not allow you to be as open minded to equipment costing less as you should be....

When it comes to HT, I personally think anyone spending a ton of money on equipment, shouldn't.. lol.. Get a nice sub or set of subs, some decent bookshelfs for the front end and surrounds. If you think you can "critically" listen to a movie like you do music, you are borderline insane , lol , but we all have different preferences, for example some people want to listen LOUD, to me, sure Ill pump a movie up here and there, but it takes away from the enjoyment of music, unless i am at a concert, I don't want to wake up with a headache, music can be enjoyed much more {imo} at a reasonable lever vs 105+db, lol.. I have noticed if you feel like you keep needing to turn up the volue, you need better speakers, when I listen to some speakers I keep turning it up, and up, and up and then I realize no matter how loud it is, its NOT going to sound good, you are turning it up to get more from something that doesn't have "it".....

You got a point about looks. I do like the way mine look. I also like the looks of the Phil 3's. BTW mine do come with magnetic grills and marble base for the mains. Did change the front stage around a little since that picture was taken. Moved the mains inside and subs outside. Mine are the new version of the originals.



and these are the rears



Now you want to talk about an ugly speaker (according to my wife) but SQ wise they blow away what I have now away by a long shot. I just loved the sound of them Tannoys (and these are over 30 years old) To each its own. I also like Energy speakers and Phase Techs.

 

[fuzz092888]

Look at that center speaker in the background

 

[ImcLoud]

You got a point about looks. I do like the way mine look. I also like the looks of the Phil 3's. BTW mine do come with magnetic grills and marble base for the mains. Did change the front stage around a little since that picture was taken. Moved the mains inside and subs outside. Mine are the new version of the originals.



and these are the rears



Now you want to talk about an ugly speaker (according to my wife) but SQ wise they blow away what I have now away by a long shot. I just loved the sound of them Tannoys (and these are over 30 years old) To each its own. I also like Energy speakers and Phase Techs.

OH' Walter, you are killing me "Energy speakers", I hate them, not all but for the most part the stuff they come out with now does not make my ears happy..
Your system looks awesome, them subs are massive, I don't know about putting pictures on them and little statues, but they look good... I think between the both of us people can get a good idea of how different peoples tastes are, I like the phil 3 sound, but can not stand how they look... I am not an energy fan either...

How far apart are them 2 pictures taken, with the tannoys and the Cinepro (years)? I have a customer with an old set of klipsch cornwalls powered by an old mc amp, and they sound so good, but are the UGLIEST speakers I ever seen in my life!!! BUT LOUD and CLEAR, they can play for old speakers, he had new or rebuilt drivers put in years ago, and said he will only relplace them with another set of the new ones, some day...

 

[walter duque]

OH' Walter, you are killing me "Energy speakers", I hate them, not all but for the most part the stuff they come out with now does not make my ears happy..
Your system looks awesome, them subs are massive, I don't know about putting pictures on them and little statues, but they look good... I think between the both of us people can get a good idea of how different peoples tastes are, I like the phil 3 sound, but can not stand how they look... I am not an energy fan either...

How far apart are them 2 pictures taken, with the tannoys and the Cinepro (years)? I have a customer with an old set of klipsch cornwalls powered by an old mc amp, and they sound so good, but are the UGLIEST speakers I ever seen in my life!!! BUT LOUD and CLEAR, they can play for old speakers, he had new or rebuilt drivers put in years ago, and said he will only relplace them with another set of the new ones, some day...

My wife puts all them little things all over, myself I hate them all the little angels and statues. The Energy speakers seemed to image well for what they are. Listened to them at BB by chance. Between the Tannoys and the speakers now is less then a years difference.

This is the system before I slid them Tannoys in there. Towers had build in subs, which I was amazed with when I bought them 10+ years ago but ended up not liking them as much as I did in the beginning.

 

[walter duque]

Look at that center speaker in the background

That was a hell of a ride that night picking them speakers up. When we took that center out of the box in your place it seemed like the speaker was a lot bigger then the box it came in. That's a huge center speaker..

 

[fuzz092888]

That was a hell of a ride that night picking them speakers up. When we took that center out of the box in your place it seemed like the speaker was a lot bigger then the box it came in. That's a huge center speaker..

That was fun. We should do it again sometime, except with a new pair of L/R's

 

[TLS Guy]

I can't see bunching all ID companies together... FOR EXAMPLE.. I think Aperion is a big rip off, I have heard the entire line, and they are over priced crap, TO ME, that is, if someone bought them and loves them, then who cares what I think, or any of us for that matter, if some one likes the sound of the parts express cheapO bookshelf over a pair of $10,000 bookshelfs that on paper look like they sound like an angel orgy, then good for them, they should buy the $50 speaker no matter what their budget is...

Heres the thing to think about, we buy audio equipment for the entire experience, aesthetics, sound, status, durability, ect... If I am building a system for a room that a certain speaker fits into the decor perfectly, I may overlook another speaker that maybe had a better midrange but was super ugly... We all have our priorities, I know my rooms would sound better with egg cartons glued to the ceilings and walls, and big bass traps throughout all the corners, but I have to live here, I don't want to look at that stuff so I don't install it, I will live with the acoustics how they are, not to have ugly crap all over the walls...

As fas as ID companies and commercially available products, again its what the end user wants, if he likes the thought of buying direct then that should help effect his decision, if he wants a big corporation behind his purchase and a store front with the personal service {in person} then buy something available locally {these places are hard to find as of late, and you are limited to what they offer}... It just all depends on the end user and his "wants", its that simple..
I have heard many speakers that I thought sounded great and were priced right BUT I didn't like the look of so would never consider for my own home... I have also bought speakers that I don't care what they look like, for example my ascend/HSU 5.2 setup, its ugly, black vinyl covered boxes, kind of large, nothing fancy.. But they sound great for the money and they are in a room that only my family uses, in that room sound and price were more important to me than aesthetics and presentation...

Walters micon system for example, it could sound fantastic but it is not very visually appealing, the light wood, big boxy cabinets, giant center channel, lack of grills {not sure if they have grills I haven't seen a a pic of them with a set}, ect. would be a turn off for me, then of course the price would be the second nail in that casket, lol I am cheap...

When spending a lot of money {comparatively, "a lot" can be $50 to someone making $14 an hour but that could be lunch for another person}, make sure you test everything in your price range, look them over, make sure they fit all of your preferences and sound appealing to you, its that simple... I also factor in resale value since I change stuff around all the time, but that is up to the buyer and what he wants or expects from the system....

We all have different likes, wants, preferences, ect.. So when we give advice on here no one is wrong as long as they are honest and don't let their personal biases weigh their recommendations too much, for example if you spent $15K on a system and because of that nothing that costs less can sound better, well you need to realize that you have a bias, most likely there is a lot of stuff better for less, but because you spent X amount your brain may not allow you to be as open minded to equipment costing less as you should be....

When it comes to HT, I personally think anyone spending a ton of money on equipment, shouldn't.. lol.. Get a nice sub or set of subs, some decent bookshelfs for the front end and surrounds. If you think you can "critically" listen to a movie like you do music, you are borderline insane , lol , but we all have different preferences, for example some people want to listen LOUD, to me, sure Ill pump a movie up here and there, but it takes away from the enjoyment of music, unless i am at a concert, I don't want to wake up with a headache, music can be enjoyed much more {imo} at a reasonable lever vs 105+db, lol.. I have noticed if you feel like you keep needing to turn up the volue, you need better speakers, when I listen to some speakers I keep turning it up, and up, and up and then I realize no matter how loud it is, its NOT going to sound good, you are turning it up to get more from something that doesn't have "it".....

Walter, I agree with everything you have to say except the last paragraph. This goes to the heart of the matter of what you want to use your system for.

I want the best sound I can get with my picture. I like opera, and that demands the best system you can afford. I can not remember when I last played a CD of an opera. It must be over two years now.

In addition I like as much music as I can get with a picture. I'm an Internet subscriber to the BPO.

I also have a VPN hookup and have just watched the BBC Proms season from mid July to yesterday. Three Proms a week are in HD on TV. I think I have watched everyone of those except one I have only downloaded and not watched. This year for the first time you can download in HD and the audio bit rate is 612 kbs. This way you have no buffering issues. Most proms were just over two gig and took a while to download With BBC engineering picture and sound were spectacular. I really felt back in the RAH. And what a season it was! For instance a relatively young Orchestra turned up from Istanbul, average age of players 35. And boy did they put on a show. They performed a work I never knew existed and I bet few others did. It was Respighi's score to his Ballet: - Belkis Queen of Sheba. They delivered a faultless exciting performance and I'm sure made a world wide reputation for them selves. The way they played it, you were on no doubt they came from the other side of the Bosphorus!

All the rest of the Proms and those televised can be listened to audio only. However audio only is not nearly the experience it is when you have a picture.

As an aside, streaming has really improved. Yesterday I watched both halves of the last night live. This is a huge national celebration right across the UK. Two years ago because of demand on their servers the BBC had to revert to audio only soon after the start. Last year there too much buffering to make it pleasant. This year for over two hours there were only two brief buffering interruptions.

All this technology I think will make the case for systems other than cars to be AV and not audio only. I only have audio only systems in my cars now.

 

[Swerd]

I've listened to a few ID companies products. They are not such a bargains as people think. It's like, they charge full retail for what you're getting.

I disagree. It comes down to how you define full price and retail. Internet Direct Retail does not equal Brick & Mortar Retal.

For example, let’s compare the Salk Veracity ST and the Joseph Audio Perspective.

Salk, an ID manufacturer asks $4200 per pair for the Veracity ST, and Joseph Audio sells the Perspective through B&M dealerships. The last time I asked, they sold for $11,800 per pair, and that was over two years ago. I’ve heard both speakers, and I think they are very close in sound quality, and as we'll see below, they contain some similar drivers.

Both speakers contain what look like two Seas Excel W16NZ-001 mid woofers, and different tweeters, RAAL in the Salk, and what looks like the Seas Excell T25 Millenium tweeter in the Joseph Audio.

The W16 woofers sell at Madisound for $260 each.

The Seas Excel T25ct-002 tweeter, sold by Madisound for $276 each.

And the proprietary RAAL ribbon tweeter in the Salk is not otherwise available, but for price comparison, I’ll settle for the RAAL 70-10D, sold by Madisound for $450 each.

Those are prices for individually sold drivers. Larger buys could have lower prices, but the discount would probably vary with the size of the order. I can't account for that.

I also can’t account for prices of crossover parts or cabinet construction and finishing, but if you do the math with the drivers alone, I think you can readily see a big difference between ID Retail Price and B&M Retail Price.

The driver costs as a percent of total "retail" price is 46.2% for Salk and 13.5% for Joseph Audio.

If you subtract the cost of the drivers from the total "retail" price, leaving the rest for cabinet and crossover construction, labor, overhead and profits, $2260 remains for the Salk, and $10,209 remains for the Joseph Audio.

I'd much rather pay Salk's listed price than pay a dealer's price for the Joseph Audios, even if I could negotiate a 25% discount from their retail price.

	Salk Veracity ST	JA Perspective
W16 ×4	$1,039.20	$1,039.20
T25 ×2	$0.00	$551.60
RAAL ×2	$900.00	$0.00
Total Drivers	$1,939.20	$1,590.80
Retail Price (pair)	$4,199.00	$11,800.00
Drivers %	46.2%	13.5%
difference	$2,259.80	$10,209.20

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</tbody>

 

[TLS Guy]

I disagree. It comes down to how you define full price and retail. Internet Direct Retail does not equal Brick & Mortar Retal.

For example, let’s compare the Salk Veracity ST and the Joseph Audio Perspective.

Salk, an ID manufacturer asks $4200 per pair for the Veracity ST, and Joseph Audio sells the Perspective through B&M dealerships. The last time I asked, they sold for $11,800 per pair, and that was over two years ago. I’ve heard both speakers, and I think they are very close in sound quality, and as we'll see below, they contain some similar drivers.

Both speakers contain what look like two Seas Excel W16NZ-001 mid woofers, and different tweeters, RAAL in the Salk, and what looks like the Seas Excell T25 Millenium tweeter in the Joseph Audio.

The W16 woofers sell at Madisound for $260 each.

The Seas Excel T25ct-002 tweeter, sold by Madisound for $276 each.

And the proprietary RAAL ribbon tweeter in the Salk is not otherwise available, but for price comparison, I’ll settle for the RAAL 70-10D, sold by Madisound for $450 each.

Those are prices for individually sold drivers. Larger buys could have lower prices, but the discount would probably vary with the size of the order. I can't account for that.

I also can’t account for prices of crossover parts or cabinet construction and finishing, but if you do the math with the drivers alone, I think you can readily see a big difference between ID Retail Price and B&M Retail Price.

The driver costs as a percent of total "retail" price is 46.2% for Salk and 13.5% for Joseph Audio.

If you subtract the cost of the drivers from the total "retail" price, leaving the rest for cabinet and crossover construction, labor, overhead and profits, $2260 remains for the Salk, and $10,209 remains for the Joseph Audio.

I'd much rather pay Salk's listed price than pay a dealer's price for the Joseph Audios, even if I could negotiate a 25% discount from their retail price.

	Salk Veracity ST	JA Perspective
W16 ×4	$1,039.20	$1,039.20
T25 ×2	$0.00	$551.60
RAAL ×2	$900.00	$0.00
Total Drivers	$1,939.20	$1,590.80
Retail Price (pair)	$4,199.00	$11,800.00
Drivers %	46.2%	13.5%
difference	$2,259.80	$10,209.20

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Nice post. You can see why in many cases shops are becoming obsolete and B & M independent dealers try and con a living from "funny wire" and other snake oil.

However all of this thread highlights Herbu's difficulty in his original question. Choosing a speaker is very difficult. It just is not easy to audition many speakers. More likely you will make a mistake than not in my view.

This problem is just another of many problems causing the decline of good home systems.

I really have no easy answer to this, and if honest not good ones at all.

How airline tickets or long car journeys are you going to make? How many speakers are you going to order and return? Both options it seem would get old very fast.

This problem will exist until speakers get as similar as amplifiers. I personally think that with current tools and a little research that could be made possible. It would require some dumping of sacred cows though. The state of the industry confines all commercial enterprises to the well trodden path at present I fear.

 

[ImcLoud]

I disagree. It comes down to how you define full price and retail. Internet Direct Retail does not equal Brick & Mortar Retal.

For example, let’s compare the Salk Veracity ST and the Joseph Audio Perspective.

Salk, an ID manufacturer asks $4200 per pair for the Veracity ST, and Joseph Audio sells the Perspective through B&M dealerships. The last time I asked, they sold for $11,800 per pair, and that was over two years ago. I’ve heard both speakers, and I think they are very close in sound quality, and as we'll see below, they contain some similar drivers.

Both speakers contain what look like two Seas Excel W16NZ-001 mid woofers, and different tweeters, RAAL in the Salk, and what looks like the Seas Excell T25 Millenium tweeter in the Joseph Audio.

The W16 woofers sell at Madisound for $260 each.

The Seas Excel T25ct-002 tweeter, sold by Madisound for $276 each.

And the proprietary RAAL ribbon tweeter in the Salk is not otherwise available, but for price comparison, I’ll settle for the RAAL 70-10D, sold by Madisound for $450 each.

Those are prices for individually sold drivers. Larger buys could have lower prices, but the discount would probably vary with the size of the order. I can't account for that.

I also can’t account for prices of crossover parts or cabinet construction and finishing, but if you do the math with the drivers alone, I think you can readily see a big difference between ID Retail Price and B&M Retail Price.

The driver costs as a percent of total "retail" price is 46.2% for Salk and 13.5% for Joseph Audio.

If you subtract the cost of the drivers from the total "retail" price, leaving the rest for cabinet and crossover construction, labor, overhead and profits, $2260 remains for the Salk, and $10,209 remains for the Joseph Audio.

I'd much rather pay Salk's listed price than pay a dealer's price for the Joseph Audios, even if I could negotiate a 25% discount from their retail price.

	Salk Veracity ST	JA Perspective
W16 ×4	$1,039.20	$1,039.20
T25 ×2	$0.00	$551.60
RAAL ×2	$900.00	$0.00
Total Drivers	$1,939.20	$1,590.80
Retail Price (pair)	$4,199.00	$11,800.00
Drivers %	46.2%	13.5%
difference	$2,259.80	$10,209.20

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Keep in mind Walter gets insane deals on his speakers, he isn't like us "normal folk" lol... So if that is the case, and you have a friend who owns a B&M store or gets you back door deals you can score some ncie speakers.. I think the days of ID companies just buying "off the shelf" drivers having a china made company produce the cabinets and slapping it all together in a rented storage bin are over, these guys are having drivers and tweeters specifically designed for them, they are getting really good with the cabinets, not as much "square box" stuff out there, we are starting to see some curves and slanted baffles... I love b&m stores, I do a ton of listening in them, I have a store about an hour and a half from me I like to stop in when I am in the area, bring coffee or lunch and BS about audio equipment while we listen to music for an after noon, the owner tells me i can buy for cost, but the problem is even at cost I am drawn to other stuff, I like maggies and he sells them but that is about it, and honestly I get sick of them fast..