How Do You Buy High-End Speakers?

[herbu]

I want to thank all ya'll for your time, help and advice with my question about picking speakers even if I don't have the opportunity to hear them first. Some of the discussion has been over my head, but very interesting, and I think I have learned a few things. I'll ask your indulgence once more to tell me any of these points are off base.

1. There are many different driver types, and even different materials used within a type. Each can be good if built and designed well, although some people have a distinct preference for a type and/or material.

2. There are different driver layouts/configurations. Each can be good if built and designed well, although some people have a distinct preference for, or prejudice against, particular layouts.

3. Crossover design and implementation is perhaps the most significant element of speaker design, assuming quality materials are initially selected.

4. Cabinetry can be a significant cost of a speaker.

5. More drivers are not necessarily better, are harder to design & execute well, but can enhance sound quality at high volume.

6. It is preferable to listen to speakers before buying.

7. The reputation and track record of a particular designer is a reasonable criteria in making a short list, and can be most useful if your listening choices, before purchase, are limited.

OK so far? Thanks!

 

[c2k]

For...

5. More drivers can increase sensitivity making speakers easier to drive. It may also extend FR.

6. Yes, piece of mind too.

7. Yes. Also note that the person must have pride and passion in their work.

4. Cabinetry. Curved is good for sound. Costs more due to more time needed. Well braced is also important. If it's custom. Veneer choice can also cost you if you go for exotic types like walnut burl. Finishing like piano gloss is also expensive due to amount of work that needs to go into it.

If you are looking into custom. Just email all the custom guys and find your info directy for what you perfer. And decide which company you want to purchase from the responses. Of course I am a little biased since I'm getting stuff built by Funk Audio after a very long search. But the other custom shops I think are very good too.

You can also consider horned speakers. I highly recommend you talk to Mark about that if your interested in this area.

Feel free to PM me if you got further questions.

 

[Swerd]

I'll ask your indulgence once more to tell me any of these points are off base.

You understand this well. All seven are correct.

 

[GranteedEV]

1. There are many different driver types, and even different materials used within a type. Each can be good if built and designed well, although some people have a distinct preference for a type and/or material.

As far as cones n domes go, in theory driver material doesn't matter *until* it fails. Some fail early-yet-gracefully, others late-yet-intensely, and others everywhere in betweer.

 

[mwmkravchenko]

Somewhere in that list should :

Armed with a recording of sounds I know very well.

And the sounds should cover the spectrum.

For low end a bus taking off from a bus stop.

Midband a car starting.

Spatial location, a lawn mower about twenty feet away moving left and right.

And for voice and sounds you know your wife or someone who you have known for years.

And to sweeten the deal here are some links to exactly the way to make such a recording:

http://www.amazon.com/iM2W-Channel-Portable-Digital-Recorder/dp/B0072DKYFO

http://www.long-mcquade.com/12250/Pro_Audio_Recording/Multi-track_Recorders/Tascam/DR-05_-_Micro_SD_Handheld_Recorder.htm

http://tascam.com/product/dr-05/

http://www.sweetwater.com/c1006--Portable_Recorders

http://www.amazon.ca/DR-100mkII-2-Channel-Portable-Digital-Recorder/dp/B006JVNTXO

The simplest truth is this. Whatever you listen to these recordings on will tell you instantly the true level of fidelity to the original recording.

And that is the aim of a properly engineering and created loudspeaker in the first place.

The cost can be absolutely trivial if you have an IPhone. And I'm sure that there are similar devices for an Android phone.

 

[c2k]

Real life sounds as a reference point. You guys should try this one. I could actually try the nearby school which has the bus stop, traffic and the random sports teams that come and go. Find out how well a speaker can render all of that

 

[TLS Guy]

I can tell you, from measurements on the Salon2, and listening to both the 207/2 and the Salon2, that they do not have "highly significant distortion", anywhere. It might be that I'm misunderstanding you, and the distortion will only occur when one or more the passive components saturate, but I've never heard it or heard of it.

You know, Mark, seriously, you're one of the most valuable resources on this forum, and what you did for Afterlife2 shows you to be an incredibly kind and generous person, but you really should try to temper your biases a bit. Yes, the Salon2 and the 207/2 both have proprietary drivers that could well go out of production, and perhaps the choices their designers made were driven more by marketing than by rigorous engineering integrity (as GranteedEV described), but hardly any of us can do what you do, and these two speakers probably come as close to practical perfection as most of us can buy, at any price.

With respect you don't design and build speakers I do.

I have tried passive crossovers in the range in question and they do not sound as good as active ones. Not nearly and the discrepancy is not subtle.

Two reasons. The main reason that even with iron cores which you have to use in that range have far too high DC resistance. Woofers do not like a resistance in series with the voice coil. It alters the T/S parameters and raises Q. In addition there are hysteresis events occurring in iron cores long before saturation.

The effects are present in the impulse response of the speaker you site.

I know I march to a higher standard, but that enormously elongated impulse response would not meet my standards. If it does yours fine. But mine it does not.

I have built two speakers that have low crossover points that do have passive crossover or the ability to be biamped. The active is way better. One of those speakers I use in Eagan, But I never use the passive crossover. For me the bass is not tight enough.

So you have your standards and I have mine, and that is were it will end.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I'm sure the chief engineers for RBH, Revel, KEF, etc. weren't born yesterday. They've been doing it most of their lives. They have their high standards too.

 

[walter duque]

That's why I like buying from Internet Direct speaker makers such as Philharmonic Audio or Salk.

I've listened to a few ID companies products. They are not such a bargains as people think. It's like, they charge full retail for what you're getting. There would be very few if any that I would buy from. The Phil 3's I've listened to, which is a great speaker, but it's no bargain, neither is the Salk Center (on a good day I'd spend $500 on it), to me these companies are getting full price for what they sell you (they are great speakers now, I am not trying to knock them) but no bargain. And some highly recommended brands are pure crap as far as I am concerned. My fried Alex (fuzz) had one highly recommended sub (for not too long) and I said to him ,you've got to be kidding me, this is what people rave about? Let's put it this way, he didn't disagree with me. My self I can do with out ID companies and get a lot better value for my money, but than again it all depends on who or what you know. Like mentioned on one of the above posts, manufacturing cost is about 15 percent of retail pricing, and that's for a good speaker with high quality components, less with cheaper parts. And some of these ID amps that are being pushed on people, you've got to be kidding me. I looked at the rear of one of these hot amps that everybody is going for, all I can say is cheap, cheap, cheap. But what ever rocks your boat and people are happy that's all that matters, doesn't it. My neighbor bought a ID system a while back and asked me what I thought, I said do him "do you have any doubts", response was: well it's so highly recommend so it must be good. My response was: well it must be then. If 1000 people say it great, so it must be great. I just don't hear it. IMO most ID companies are a total rip off. A friend of mine has a very nice store in NC. and his favorite speakers are Def Techs and Golden Ear. He's telling me that he can blow them out at 50% off retail and still make a fortune.

 

[crossedover]

I'm sure the chief engineers for RBH, Revel, KEF, etc. weren't born yesterday. They've been doing it most of their lives. They have their high standards too.

What about Amar Bose ? I'm sure he wasn't born yesterday?

 

[TLS Guy]

I'm sure the chief engineers for RBH, Revel, KEF, etc. weren't born yesterday. They've been doing it most of their lives. They have their high standards too.

Yes, but they have to worry about things I don't, especially in the area of marketing, perceived consumer preference etc.

In other words I can and do do things that would be commercial suicide. As I have told you many times DIY is about making better equipment. In the case of speakers, much better.

It does not end there. There is no commercial equivalent of my HTPC. It outperforms any commercial product I know of for enjoying what is out on the NET. I now use that far more then any other front end.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Yes, but they have to worry about things I don't, especially in the area of marketing, perceived consumer preference etc.

In other words I can and do do things that would be commercial suicide. As I have told you many times DIY is about making better equipment. In the case of speakers, much better.

Hence my point earlier. DIY isn't an option for most people, and commercial suicide isn't much of an option for businesses. So what are you really trying to say? That everything available commercially is crap?

 

[TLS Guy]

Hence my point earlier. DIY isn't an option for most people, and commercial suicide isn't much of an option for businesses. So what are you really trying to say? That everything available commercially is crap?

That does not logically follow from what I said.

 

[mwmkravchenko]

Hence my point earlier. DIY isn't an option for most people, and commercial suicide isn't much of an option for businesses. So what are you really trying to say? That everything available commercially is crap?

Some of it is.

What has amazed me for decades now is how some companies can become a force of nature. Bose is a great example of marketing over Sound Quality. Even our much maligned B&W (they do make some very good products) the cone cry I have mentioned is not a new problem. But find that in a review in print!

Being able to hear something in your home is very important.

Having a loudspeaker company that understands this is very important.

And have a loudspeaker line that keeps that "voice" (for lack of a better term) throughout it's entire line is also something that is common to the smaller companies and not so common in the larger companies. Usually it's a case of having one designer versus competing teams. Or market constraints dictated by the price slot that marketing has decided is required.

Large companies are in it for the money. Period.

The small ones are to. That is a fair statement. But the small ones have no other option but to offer you their best. The big ones have a simple system of shoveling out more product to cover the bills.

 

[GranteedEV]

Woofers do not like a resistance in series with the voice coil. It alters the T/S parameters and raises Q.

The basic assumption here is that the driver isn't designed for the system, or that the box isn't made for the driver after the crossover.

We can easily model the effect of series resistance on the system Q - it's not unpredictable. Yes it lower system sensitivity and causes insertion loss, but again that's a system thing. A 95 db efficient, Qts = 0.25 driver and a 90db, qts = 0.4 driver can't be compared apples to apples with the same criticism. If driver A ends up being 90db sensitive, qts = 0.4 after insertion losses, then you can't really say "the passive crossover has higher Q". End of the day it has the same sensitivity, same system Q.

No comment WRT hysteresis. I think we're in agreement on that. Even before saturation, you do get distortion. I believe it's going to be 3rd order harmonics.

...Now, all that said, there is another issue with inductance in series with a woofer. It's the presence of an inductance hump due to the interaction of phase angles. But this is another thing that would show up in frequency response measurements.

 

[c2k]

I've listened to a few ID companies products. They are not such a bargains as people think. It's like, they charge full retail for what you're getting. There would be very few if any that I would buy from. The Phil 3's I've listened to, which is a great speaker, but it's no bargain, neither is the Salk Center (on a good day I'd spend $500 on it), to me these companies are getting full price for what they sell you (they are great speakers now, I am not trying to knock them) but no bargain. And some highly recommended brands are pure crap as far as I am concerned. My fried Alex (fuzz) had one highly recommended sub (for not too long) and I said to him ,you've got to be kidding me, this is what people rave about? Let's put it this way, he didn't disagree with me. My self I can do with out ID companies and get a lot better value for my money, but than again it all depends on who or what you know. Like mentioned on one of the above posts, manufacturing cost is about 15 percent of retail pricing, and that's for a good speaker with high quality components, less with cheaper parts. And some of these ID amps that are being pushed on people, you've got to be kidding me. I looked at the rear of one of these hot amps that everybody is going for, all I can say is cheap, cheap, cheap. But what ever rocks your boat and people are happy that's all that matters, doesn't it. My neighbor bought a ID system a while back and asked me what I thought, I said do him "do you have any doubts", response was: well it's so highly recommend so it must be good. My response was: well it must be then. If 1000 people say it great, so it must be great. I just don't hear it. IMO most ID companies are a total rip off. A friend of mine has a very nice store in NC. and his favorite speakers are Def Techs and Golden Ear. He's telling me that he can blow them out at 50% off retail and still make a fortune.

Can you elaborate on the amp that is "cheap cheap cheap"

As for for the most statement for "most ID companies being a total rip off" Why is it so? Compared to What?

I would also like to know what his "highly recommended sub" is.

As for the bargain part, you also got to consider time to build, Including Crossovers, cabinet and veneering.

Hey why don't you give US a bargain and build these at this bargain price of 500!

 

[Irvrobinson]

Some of it is.

What has amazed me for decades now is how some companies can become a force of nature. Bose is a great example of marketing over Sound Quality. Even our much maligned B&W (they do make some very good products) the cone cry I have mentioned is not a new problem. But find that in a review in print!

Being able to hear something in your home is very important.

Having a loudspeaker company that understands this is very important.

And have a loudspeaker line that keeps that "voice" (for lack of a better term) throughout it's entire line is also something that is common to the smaller companies and not so common in the larger companies. Usually it's a case of having one designer versus competing teams. Or market constraints dictated by the price slot that marketing has decided is required.

Large companies are in it for the money. Period.

The small ones are to. That is a fair statement. But the small ones have no other option but to offer you their best. The big ones have a simple system of shoveling out more product to cover the bills.

I agree with all of this. I would have never purchased any of my speakers for the past 30 years without an extended home audition. On the other hand, that service was available from B&M dealers. And from Legacy Audio when they were factory direct only.

I really can't speak to most B&W speakers, I've only heard the 800D, 801, and 802D, and while I didn't care for them, they weren't that bad. They just didn't sound like live, they made every recording a bit too colored to excite me, but I know people who love them.

On the other hand, I don't judge speakers by the company they come from. Initially, at least, it's only about how they're built and how they sound. And, of course, what they cost.

 

[Irvrobinson]

That does not logically follow from what I said.

Then what are you saying?

 

[TLS Guy]

Then what are you saying?

It is only logical if your rating system is excellent and crap and nothing in between. You made an unwarranted assumption and arrived at an illogical conclusion.

 

[c2k]

Yes, but they have to worry about things I don't, especially in the area of marketing, perceived consumer preference etc.

In other words I can and do do things that would be commercial suicide. As I have told you many times DIY is about making better equipment. In the case of speakers, much better.

It does not end there. There is no commercial equivalent of my HTPC. It outperforms any commercial product I know of for enjoying what is out on the NET. I now use that far more then any other front end.

You got a very nice convertor. Combined with the PC it would indeed be very hard to beat. Along with all that equipment...
I'm actually thinking of getting a convertor although not the same brand as you after treating the room properly eventually.

Although I would will only be using it for DA purposes. Love the looks of those SEAS drivers. Don't cover them up