How Do You Buy High-End Speakers?

[Swerd]

… You can see why in many cases shops are becoming obsolete and B & M independent dealers try and con a living from "funny wire" and other snake oil.

Good point. I wonder how big a discount I might get on $10,000 speakers from a B&M dealer if I also buy $1,000 "funny wire" at the same time?

 

[Swerd]

Keep in mind Walter gets insane deals on his speakers, he isn't like us "normal folk" lol...

I get that, but because of that Walter shouldn't generalize about retail prices that "normal folk" do face.

The problem with B&M audio stores is the price markups from the various levels of distributors between the manufacturer and the store. Sometimes there are multiple distribution layers. Even if an owner of a B&M store offered you speakers at his own cost, you aren't close the factory cost. The ID model gets you closer to that, while still allowing the manufacturer to make a reasonable profit.

 

[ImcLoud]

I get that, but because of that Walter shouldn't generalize about retail prices that "normal folk" do face.

The problem with B&M audio stores is the price markups from the various levels of distributors between the manufacturer and the store. Sometimes there are multiple distribution layers. Even if an owner of a B&M store offered you speakers at his own cost, you aren't close the factory cost. The ID model gets you closer to that, while still allowing the manufacturer to make a reasonable profit.

I agree 100%, ID gets you more for your money in most cases, I think if it wasnt for ID companies a lot of them products would not be around....

 

[Irvrobinson]

The Joseph Audio speakers are comparable because they use the same woofers? Frankly, the Revel F208 at $4K/pair (net price) from B&M dealers seems like a better mainstream B&M alternative comparison with the Salks than the ultra-high-end JAs.

 

[walter duque]

I get that, but because of that Walter shouldn't generalize about retail prices that "normal folk" do face.

The problem with B&M audio stores is the price markups from the various levels of distributors between the manufacturer and the store. Sometimes there are multiple distribution layers. Even if an owner of a B&M store offered you speakers at his own cost, you aren't close the factory cost. The ID model gets you closer to that, while still allowing the manufacturer to make a reasonable profit.

I have a formula which I go by, that also depends on the price. The higher priced the bigger the discount. I take retail and multiply it by .65 and that fair to me and the store owner. People still have to make money and pay for their overhead. Dealer cost is around 50% from retail pricing. Now you go to higher priced items the mark up way up there.

 

[GranteedEV]

The Joseph Audio speakers are comparable because they use the same woofers? Frankly, the Revel F208 at $4K/pair (net price) from B&M dealers seems like a better mainstream B&M alternative comparison with the Salks than the ultra-high-end JAs.

The Revel F208 use a lower tier of driver than the HT2-TL. This is the woofer used in the F208, although Revel anodizes them black:

The Madisound Speaker Store

this is the tweeter, although Revel puts it in a custom waveguide:

The Madisound Speaker Store

this is the mid:

The Madisound Speaker Store

Perhaps swerd can do the same math for you. Although now you're comparing a China(mexico?)-built mass-produced 3-way to a custom hand-built 2-way. Kinda gets complicated there.

The Joseph Audio comparision worked because tweeter aside, they're very close in design.

A good comparision to the Revel F208 might not exist at all. I'm not aware of any mass-produced ID 3-ways in the 4K range.

 

[Swerd]

The Joseph Audio speakers are comparable because they use the same woofers?

Yes. I've heard both speakers. I could estimate the driver costs for both speakers, and I could compare that to their asking prices. Yes, it is possible that I might be somewhat off if Joseph Audio uses drivers made by Seas that look like other Seas drivers but differ because of JA's specs. But I'll still be close enough to have the same conclusions.

Frankly, the Revel F208 at $4K/pair (net price) from B&M dealers seems like a better mainstream B&M alternative comparison with the Salks than the ultra-high-end JAs.

That would be the other way to compare ID vs. B&M speakers. What would I get for approximately similar prices? The Salk is $4200 and the Revel F208 is about $5000 (according to the stereophile review)?

Unfortunately, I can't do that comparison.

1) I haven't heard the F208s.

2) Revel uses drivers made through Harmon Kardon's large resources. They are probably not available on any other non-Revel speaker, nor are they available as raw drivers sold by Madisound, PE, or Meniscus Audio. So I cannot get prices of drivers for a comparison to the Seas drivers Salk uses.

But I can still safely guess that any distributor's and dealer's margin will add significantly to the original manufacturer's cost.

 

[Irvrobinson]

The Revel F208 use a lower tier of driver than the HT2-TL. This is the woofer used in the F208, although Revel anodizes them black:

The Madisound Speaker Store

this is the tweeter, although Revel puts it in a custom waveguide:

The Madisound Speaker Store

this is the mid:

The Madisound Speaker Store

Perhaps swerd can do the same math for you.

Thanks for the links, I can do the math, but my point was different. Performance-wise I suspect the F208 is the competition, and probably has much deeper bass response. I just thought the JA was a contrived example, because IMO they aren't an impressive value in any way.

I also agree, BTW, that ID companies are generally better values, considering component costs as a fraction from retail price, but I just think the example made the difference look bigger than it usually is.

 

[Swerd]

The Revel F208 use a lower tier of driver than the HT2-TL. This is the woofer used in the F208, although Revel anodizes them black…

Interesting. I didn't know Revel uses those drivers. Thanks.

 

[GranteedEV]

Performance-wise I suspect the F208 is the competition

Well, the HT2-TL uses a much more expensive tweeter for starters. It also doesn't aim for the same extension or bass output. I doubt that the SB mid is going to be as resolving as the flagship Excel mid, but it's not my call to comment on it - just a pure guess.

I really don't think they're on each others' radars because they're so inherently different.

A closer Salk comparision to the F208 might be the Salk Archos? It uses an acoustic elegance woofer, PHL mid, and aurum cantus tweeter (would probably be redesigned with a 70-20XR if someone ordered it these days *shrug*). It's the deep-reaching 3-way equivalent.

 

[TLS Guy]

The Joseph Audio speakers are comparable because they use the same woofers? Frankly, the Revel F208 at $4K/pair (net price) from B&M dealers seems like a better mainstream B&M alternative comparison with the Salks than the ultra-high-end JAs.

Yes, the driver complement is very similar, with the Salk having the more expensive tweeter, although not necessarily the better one, but that's beside the point. The guy with the most experience in design will get the job done cheapest. As in all things incompetence will drive up the cost. Lets assume they both have similar competence, then it comes down to the cost and standard of the boxes, freight and mark up.

I have seen Salk's work and it is of the highest standards in terms of cabinetry. So it does come down to how many handle the product and their mark ups and freight.

I have heard the Salk speaker but not the Joseph. So based on drivers they are comps.

I have not heard the Revel you site and it measures well.

However the speakers Swerd references have well known and very well made drivers. I suspect the Revel speakers have drivers contracted out to Chinese jobbers, which would make that speaker not a comp for me.

Well made drivers matter in terms of consistent performance and longevity. Those attributes cost money.

The Salk is a very good speaker indeed. The only thing I had reservation about was in fact the high end. I don't know if it was because of the tweeter, or because it was driven from a tube amp, which I suspect of clipping. Soft or hard I don't like either, it's just a matter of degree!

 

[GranteedEV]

I suspect the Revel speakers have drivers contracted out to Chinese jobbers, which would make that speaker not a comp for me.

SB Acoustics drivers are both designed (by former Scanspeak engineers who worked on the Revelator line) and manufactured in-house in Indonesia. People have commented that build-quality and driver consistency is very high. Their flagship driver, the Satori is world-class and priced like it too. No Chinese cost-cutting.

 

[Irvrobinson]

now you're comparing a China(mexico?)-built mass-produced 3-way to a custom hand-built 2-way. Kinda gets complicated there.

I completely agree, and as I've posted before Harman may not be a company I'd buy from again; they are different than when I purchased my Revels in 2010. I think the F-series is made in China. Last I heard the Ultima series are made in Mexico. I just pulled the Revels out of my ear because I had heard them recently.

One comment, I hung on to my Legacy Focus for longer than I really wanted to because I had trouble finding truly compelling replacements, until the Salon2 and the 207/2 came around. I almost took the Dunlavy SC-V to the dance, but they were quirky, huge, expensive, and I didn't like the highs enough to give up my next sports car for them. I suspect I would have a similarly hard time making a decision to replace the Salon2s if I had to now.

 

[TLS Guy]

SB Acoustics drivers are both designed (by former Scanspeak engineers who worked on the Revelator line) and manufactured in-house in Indonesia. People have commented that build-quality and driver consistency is very high. Their flagship driver, the Satori is world-class and priced like it too. No Chinese cost-cutting.

I did not know they were SB drivers. They are known good quality middle of the road drivers. They are not in the exotic class like the others, but that does not mean they won't get the job done.

I have looked at those drivers since they came on the scene and they have some very useful drivers to work with.

They are in line with those older long lamented VIFA woofer line, and seem to be filling that gap. Those older VIFA Classic units were excellent and fantastic value for money.

 

[GranteedEV]

I did not know they were SB drivers. They are known good quality middle of the road drivers. They are not in the exotic class like the others, but that does not mean they won't get the job done.

The Satori drivers (unrelated to the ones used by Revel), used in Jeff Bagby's Kairos 2-way:

Kairos (Pair)

Are absolutely in the exotic class.

 

[Swerd]

OK, I did the math (ie., ran the spreadsheet). You do the conclusions, but I think the numbers speak for themselves.

	Salk Veracity ST	Revel F208	JA Perspective
W16×4	$1,039.20	–	$1,039.20
RAAL ×2	$900.00	–	–
Seas T25 ×2	–	–	$551.60
SB 8" ×4	–	$519.20	–
SB 5" ×2	–	$144.20	–
SB tweeter ×2	–	$78.00	–
Total Drivers	$1,939.20	$741.40	$1,590.80
Retail Price (pair)	$4,199.00	$5,000.00	$11,800.00
Drivers %	46.2%	14.8%	13.5%
Difference	$2,259.80	$4,258.60	$10,209.20

<tbody>
</tbody>

 

[GranteedEV]

Now add the Archos!

FWIW though, I imagine the crossover parts on the 3-way F208s to be a lot pricer than the 2-way Salks. That's why I think the Archos is a better comparision.

 

[Swerd]

I have a formula which I go by, that also depends on the price. The higher priced the bigger the discount. I take retail and multiply it by .65 and that fair to me and the store owner. People still have to make money and pay for their overhead. Dealer cost is around 50% from retail pricing. Now you go to higher priced items the mark up way up there.

I missed your response with all the spreadsheet stuff. So you offer 65% of retail price in B&M stores? I'll keep that in mind. I usually think that anything better than about 20% off is a good deal, but you never know how low they'll go unless you ask .

What did Jim Salk say when you offered him 65% of his asking price for his speakers?

 

[Swerd]

Now add the Archos!

FWIW though, I imagine the crossover parts on the 3-way F208s to be a lot pricer than the 2-way Salks. That's why I think the Archos is a better comparision.

The drivers for the Archos are no longer available.

I never heard it, but I doubt if many were sold. Their appearance makes them an acquired taste. And the open back midrange made them, possibly, as difficult to locate in a room as other dipoles like electrostats or Orions. In my opinion, you are better off with Dennis's Philharmonic 2s.

I've also never heard any design by Jeff Bagby. He has an excellent reputation, but does he voice things the same way as Dennis does?

 

[ImcLoud]

The drivers for the Archos are no longer available.

I never heard it, but I doubt if many were sold. Their appearance makes them an acquired taste. And the open back midrange made them, possibly, as difficult to locate in a room as other dipoles like electrostats or Orions. In my opinion, you are better off with Dennis's Philharmonic 2s.

I've also never heard any design by Jeff Bagby. He has an excellent reputation, but does he voice things the same way as Dennis does?

You bring up another great point, placement, when buying speakers this is very important, a friend of mine fell in love with a pair of maggie 1.7's, he heard them at another mutual friends home and in 2 showrooms, he loved them, he got them home and BLAHHH no more love, the shop came out and moved them around, admitted his room was troublesome, they tried using a room correction system {I didn't like that idea} they tried treating the room a little more {he has some stuff already done}, moved furniture, ect and he has never been happy with them, he is going to try dirac from mini dsp soon but I don't think its going to work, he has them in the wrong room...