How Do You Buy High-End Speakers?

[Swerd]

You bring up another great point, placement, when buying speakers this is very important, a friend of mine fell in love with a pair of maggie 1.7's, he heard them at another mutual friends home and in 2 showrooms, he loved them, he got them home and BLAHHH no more love, the shop came out and moved them around, admitted his room was troublesome, they tried using a room correction system {I didn't like that idea} they tried treating the room a little more {he has some stuff already done}, moved furniture, ect and he has never been happy with them, he is going to try dirac from mini dsp soon but I don't think its going to work, he has them in the wrong room...

That's one of the reasons why I like the Philharmonic 3 and the Salk SS8. The mid range driver is in a 3 sided chamber that is open at the back. The owner can vary the polyfill stuffing from nothing, to fully stuffed, to completely closed. Unlike non-variable dipoles, such as Maggies, this allows great flexibility in room location.

To be fair, Dennis and Jim borrowed this idea from Jim Holtz's DIY Statement design. But Dennis did extensive work fine tuning this before he arrived at his final designs.

 

[walter duque]

I missed your response with all the spreadsheet stuff. So you offer 65% of retail price in B&M stores? I'll keep that in mind. I usually think that anything better than about 20% off is a good deal, but you never know how low they'll go unless you ask .

What did Jim Salk say when you offered him 65% of his asking price for his speakers?

I never asked Jim Salk for a price. I couldn't afford them even at 50% off.
Now if we go back to the OP's 1st post, my response would be: find the speaker you like and then you buy one pre-owned. There are some good deals out there on the used market. A while back I could have picket up these Salons for $3500.00 and to me that seemed like a great deal, he gave $3000.00 for them on a trade in. They where in like new condition. Although I had no use for them I should have bought them anyway. Price wise I would have been very happy. Besides my whole speaker system cost me less than 4k and that includes the subs. I am one that's always looking for a good deal. Sometimes you have to wait a while, but sooner or later one comes along.

 

[ImcLoud]

I never asked Jim Salk for a price. I couldn't afford them even at 50% off.
Now if we go back to the OP's 1st post, my response would be: find the speaker you like and then you buy one pre-owned. There are some good deals out there on the used market. A while back I could have picket up these Salons for $3500.00 and to me that seemed like a great deal, he gave $3000.00 for them on a trade in. They where in like new condition. Although I had no use for them I should have bought them anyway. Price wise I would have been very happy.

I don't think you are getting 10% off salks prices.... I have dealt with HSU, they gave me a discount, as did svs, emotiva, and ascend {well ascend gave me some stands at a discount}, Also music direct treats me very well, I have spent thousands with them just on albums alone, I do my xmass shopping on their site {for the audio heads in my circle anyway}. most all of the companies will "deal" they are in sales, that is the point...

 

[walter duque]

I don't think you are getting 10% off salks prices.... I have dealt with HSU, they gave me a discount, as did svs, emotiva, and ascend {well ascend gave me some stands at a discount}, Also music direct treats me very well, I have spent thousands with them just on albums alone, I do my xmass shopping on their site {for the audio heads in my circle anyway}. most all of the companies will "deal" they are in sales, that is the point...

That's why I don't deal with ID companies. I wouldn't pay Salks prices anyway as I have no interest in them. I am comfortable the way I purchase my equipment. I can call my speaker builder on his cell if I need to and the Bob who build my amps responds to my e-mail in less than ½ hour. Warranty I don't worry about as long as these guys are alive. OPPO has great customer service (I would say the best) and Patrick from Krell gets back to you in minutes, so I am good at where I am at. If possible I like to stay away from Chinese made components, although sometimes it's not possible and you have to take a chance. Farmed out speaker enclosures and then assembled in the US, just not my bag.

 

[ImcLoud]

That's why I don't deal with ID companies. I wouldn't pay Salks prices anyway as I have no interest in them. I am comfortable the way I purchase my equipment. I can call my speaker builder on his cell if I need to and the Bob who build my amps responds to my e-mail in less than ½ hour. Warranty I don't worry about as long as these guys are alive. OPPO has great customer service (I would say the best) and Patrick from Krell gets back to you in minutes, so I am good at where I am at. If possible I like to stay away from Chinese made components, although sometimes it's not possible and you have to take a chance. Farmed out speaker enclosures and then assembled in the US, just not my bag.

I just want something that I like the sound of with a price that doesn't make my finger nails hurt... Sure USA made is nice, BUT we are way beyond that, I used to try to buy only american products, its not easy, and maybe mipossible unless you don't mind going with out a lot of stuff... So now I just boycott walmart...

 

[TLS Guy]

The Satori drivers (unrelated to the ones used by Revel), used in Jeff Bagby's Kairos 2-way:

Kairos (Pair)

Are absolutely in the exotic class.

I don't know if I would have a lot of interest in that Satori woofer, except may be in a three way. I think they have made the cone too heavy to get low Fs with optimal Qts.

This is the sort of product that attracts me to SB.

I think I could develop some really high performance to cost ratio speakers with those drivers.

 

[GranteedEV]

I think they have made the cone too heavy to get low Fs with optimal Qts.

What makes you you say that? The mms = 12.4g, the Fs = 29hz, qts = 0.33. Sensitivity is pretty healthy too, for a 6" midbass.

 

[TLS Guy]

What makes you you say that? The mms = 12.4g, the Fs = 29hz, qts = 0.33. Sensitivity is pretty healthy too, for a 6" midbass.

I just think it is over doped. The acoustic response shows something very abrupt happening at 1.2 KHz. I'm suspicious its mid band response would not sound all that sweet. Just suspicious that's all.

I think in that price range there are better choices out there. In a six inch speaker the troubles should really start at a higher frequency. Things like Egyptian Papyrus claims also arouse my suspicions. We are dealing with a doped paper cone here however you advertize it.

 

[GranteedEV]

I just think it is over doped. The acoustic response shows something very abrupt happening at 1.2 KHz. I'm suspicious its mid band response would not sound all that sweet. Just suspicious that's all.

Yes, that response dip has been there sincethe driver was first revealed to be the one used in the Wilson Sophia 3. It's almost certainly a surround reflection rather than a cone issue. It appears in the impedance:

and it's certainly a measurable issue:

but I can't identify any related stored energy:

So the question ultimately boils down to weather it's audible at that magnitude and Q. One thing's for sure: It's there on AND off-axis.

 

[mwmkravchenko]

OK, I did the math (ie., ran the spreadsheet). You do the conclusions, but I think the numbers speak for themselves.

	Salk Veracity ST	Revel F208	JA Perspective
W16×4	$1,039.20	–	$1,039.20
RAAL ×2	$900.00	–	–
Seas T25 ×2	–	–	$551.60
SB 8" ×4	–	$519.20	–
SB 5" ×2	–	$144.20	–
SB tweeter ×2	–	$78.00	–
Total Drivers	$1,939.20	$741.40	$1,590.80
Retail Price (pair)	$4,199.00	$5,000.00	$11,800.00
Drivers %	46.2%	14.8%	13.5%
Difference	$2,259.80	$4,258.60	$10,209.20

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For the big boys you divide the driver cost by three.

And you take the cabinet cost and divide it by four.

I have seen beautiful cabinets sold aat the cost of the materials over here.

The trouble is that there is a 500 pc minimum order.

The little guys can't dive into the deep end.

For drivers 500 pieces is not easy to ask for. Never mind get a production run.

So the economies of scale always boil down to the old axiom "you need money to make money".

 

[ImcLoud]

For the big boys you divide the driver cost by three.

And you take the cabinet cost and divide it by four.

I have seen beautiful cabinets sold aat the cost of the materials over here.

The trouble is that there is a 500 pc minimum order.

The little guys can't dive into the deep end.

For drivers 500 pieces is not easy to ask for. Never mind get a production run.

So the economies of scale always boil down to the old axiom "you need money to make money".

A friend of mine designed a speaker {using off the shelf parts, he built the crossovers though} and it sounds really good, he can produce them for around $600 a set, that is veneered and packaged... Problem is sierra 1's sound just as good and would be less expensive for the customer in the end... Now if he could get the all the components in bulk, get the cabinets made in China and shipped to him ready to assemble, he could cut his $600 down to $380 and now he can sell the speakers for $600 and make a few bucks... He did all the math and figured he would need to sell around 250 sets to make $40K, that is a lot of work for $40K!!!! And then what if they don't sell? You will have a stack of bookshelf speakers no one wants...

 

[Irvrobinson]

I missed your response with all the spreadsheet stuff. So you offer 65% of retail price in B&M stores? I'll keep that in mind. I usually think that anything better than about 20% off is a good deal, but you never know how low they'll go unless you ask .

For authorized dealers they may have a bottom price they can offer in their dealership agreement. My dealer explained that Revel did that.

 

[TLS Guy]

For the big boys you divide the driver cost by three.

And you take the cabinet cost and divide it by four.

I have seen beautiful cabinets sold aat the cost of the materials over here.

The trouble is that there is a 500 pc minimum order.

The little guys can't dive into the deep end.

For drivers 500 pieces is not easy to ask for. Never mind get a production run.

So the economies of scale always boil down to the old axiom "you need money to make money".

I have been in the speaker business twice. The first time I was Canadian distributor for JW in the 70s. I also did large pro custom installs. That was a tough racket.

Back in the late eighties I produced this nice speaker.

So I invested in a modest production run and was encourage that they all sold very quickly.

Then as soon as I started the next run, Focal made the mid/woofers unavailable!

Never again.

 

[Irvrobinson]

OK, I did the math (ie., ran the spreadsheet). You do the conclusions, but I think the numbers speak for themselves.

	Salk Veracity ST	Revel F208	JA Perspective
W16×4	$1,039.20	–	$1,039.20
RAAL ×2	$900.00	–	–
Seas T25 ×2	–	–	$551.60
SB 8" ×4	–	$519.20	–
SB 5" ×2	–	$144.20	–
SB tweeter ×2	–	$78.00	–
Total Drivers	$1,939.20	$741.40	$1,590.80
Retail Price (pair)	$4,199.00	$5,000.00	$11,800.00
Drivers %	46.2%	14.8%	13.5%
Difference	$2,259.80	$4,258.60	$10,209.20

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You are comparing ID retail to B&M retail, which isn't realistic. Assuming ASP = 80% of retail, the drivers are 18.5% for the Revel, and and 16.8% for JA. Still not very impressive, but closer to what I would expect. And we are comparing retail prices of the drivers; I expect that Harman's total materials cost is only $1000-$1500 for a pair of F208s. Their R&D is more expensive, Revel spends more on marketing, etc. Overall it's obvious the Salk wins the lowest gross margin contest. It's almost too good to be true, like Salk is packing $20 bills with every speaker.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I disagree. It comes down to how you define full price and retail. Internet Direct Retail does not equal Brick & Mortar Retal.

For example, let’s compare the Salk Veracity ST and the Joseph Audio Perspective.

Madisound also sells diamond tweeters for $2,900 each.

The Madisound Speaker Store

Piano gloss finish on towers is a $2K upgrade from Salk.

So a big tower with just gloss paint & tweeters alone would cost about $8K!

That doesn't include cabinets, midrange drivers, woofers, crossovers, etc.

Yet, people can get 20% off on B&W. So the whole 802D2 is $12K street price per pair. That's what I paid brand new. Demo (like new) would be $10K.

The 805D2 @ 20% off is $4K brand new. That's cheaper than a pair of aftermarket diamond tweeter from Madisound.

It doesn't seem like ID or DIY is always more cost effective.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The Revel F208 use a lower tier of driver than the HT2-TL. This is the woofer used in the F208, although Revel anodizes them black:

The Madisound Speaker Store

this is the tweeter, although Revel puts it in a custom waveguide:

The Madisound Speaker Store

this is the mid:

The Madisound Speaker Store

Perhaps swerd can do the same math for you. Although now you're comparing a China(mexico?)-built mass-produced 3-way to a custom hand-built 2-way. Kinda gets complicated there.

The Joseph Audio comparision worked because tweeter aside, they're very close in design.

A good comparision to the Revel F208 might not exist at all. I'm not aware of any mass-produced ID 3-ways in the 4K range.

Wait. I thought Harman use their own drivers. Are they now using "off-the-shelf" drivers too?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The opinions of a few about how DIY or ID is supposedly better than B&M and which one is more cost effective isn't helping the OP.

He probably just wants to know the basic differences among all the speaker types - pros and cons.

 

[c2k]

Madisound also sells diamond tweeters for $2,900 each.

The Madisound Speaker Store

Piano gloss finish on towers is a $2K upgrade from Salk.

So a big tower with just gloss paint & tweeters alone would cost about $8K!

That doesn't include cabinets, midrange drivers, woofers, crossovers, etc.

Yet, people can get 20% off on B&W. So the whole 802D2 is $12K street price per pair. That's what I paid brand new. Demo (like new) would be $10K.

It doesn't seem like ID or DIY is always more cost effective.

Acu,

B&W 800D2 Drivers Cost

Low/Bassunit 486.53
Midrange 347.52
Tweeter 1280.03

B&W 802D2

Low = 399.65
Rest of the driver pricing is same as 800D2

 

[Dennis Murphy]

That's one of the reasons why I like the Philharmonic 3 and the Salk SS8. The mid range driver is in a 3 sided chamber that is open at the back. The owner can vary the polyfill stuffing from nothing, to fully stuffed, to completely closed. Unlike non-variable dipoles, such as Maggies, this allows great flexibility in room location.

To be fair, Dennis and Jim borrowed this idea from Jim Holtz's DIY Statement design. But Dennis did extensive work fine tuning this before he arrived at his final designs.

Actually, I did an open-back mid 3-way version of the Ellis 1801 a good piece before the Statement was designed. I still use it in my HT setup, which you may have seen in my basement. But the success of the Statement certainly encouraged me to carry over that approach in the Phil 3.

 

[mwmkravchenko]

Madisound also sells diamond tweeters for $2,900 each.

The Madisound Speaker Store

.

You would faint if I told you how much the diamond dome actually costs.


Lets just say it is in the wire category for rip off markup.