Hijack posts from Hsu/SVS thread...

[Ilkka]

We all know that the measurements are in-room at long mic placement so now is not the time to dwell on linearity. Hold your comments for when better conditions allow more accurate measurement of FR. If you were more courteous this nonsense would not happen as much and we wouldn't have as many closed threads. Like Jack said its OK to have a different view and you make some good points occasionally, just don't slander people and get so obnoxious. How can you expect to have an intelligent constructive exchange of ideas when you refer to people as lying? Do the civil thing for a change and leave the thread.

John,

I only pointed out that the graphs Craig posted weren't with 1/24 oct. resolution. That could have easily been just a typo, but after my noticifation Craig assured that they were what he said and promised to have me banned for what I said. First time can be a honest typo/mistake, second time is usually a lie. Agree? Of course I would like to hear Craig's explanation, if he wants to give one.

And I don't think we have to wait any more accurate measurements. IIRC you said that subwoofer with a better linearity outdoors will have a better linearity also in-room? Doesn't it work reversed? I just can't believe new HSU would measure that bad.

 

[Ajax]

I just meant that I was expecting this from you all.

And we were expecting malicious insults and petulant name calling from you. SO?

 

[Ilkka]

Maybe part of this problem is can be attributed to a language barrier - it might have been better to say, "hey craig, maybe you made a mistake...what about this data?" rather than, "you're a liar!"

Calling someone a liar is much more inflammatory and insulting than just insinuating that they've screwed up on a detail or missed something....No matter who is right or wrong in the situation.

Now, I can't wait to finish work and get home to play with my HO!

Well, I said "You shouldn't try to lie to a guy, who has spent more time with TrueRTA than it's suggested. ".

I tried to be gentle, but I know that sometimes it comes harder than what I intended. We Finns aren't that affraid to say things straight if needed. But I realize you might take it differently. Although Craig assured that they were what he said even after my notification. Of course maybe he didn't know what 1/24 oct. resolution means, I mean he doesn't have much experience with TrueRTA after all. Is this fair enough?

 

[Ilkka]

The presumption in a statement like this one is that the OP has not been fair and honest and therein lies the biggest problem with your posts. I'm bowing out too, you've wrecked another thread.

Oh no, you shouldn't take that too directly. It's more like general notification.

But of course if we are being told that both subs have similar in-room responses, but then after the listening and "peak measurements" are done (at least partly), we are being given responses which show awfully large differences, I feel being cheated. Am I the only one?

 

[Ilkka]

I know this is a cliche, but thanks guys for those many PMs I have received recently. It is nice to know that at least some people are leaning towards my direction.

But if it doesn't bother anyone ( ), I would like see this thread continuing its "mission". Meaning please give us more graphs and listening impressions Craig. Or is it still clear to anyone which sub is better? We don't have enough points to be summed up yet.

First night went to HSU, second night went to SVS. Third is the charm?

 

[Berty52]

Bring this man in View attachment un.bmp
Please can we continu this tread and see what will be the final result.

 

[spyboy]

Ilkka

All the experience in the world with RTA is not going to mean much when you have alienated people who might have otherwise been interested in what you have to say.

I guess your reputation means nothing to you.

Do yourself a favor, please bow out.

 

[dirtraven]

Review

Can we move on with the review, this is as bad as some other non AV forums I belong to. You may have a point or not in that there may have been an oversight on Craig's part, but can it just be said in 1 post and not drag this on for 2 pages! sheesh, now I have to do some real work again at work!!

 

[JonnyOzero3]

I don't really know jack about the finer, techinical points involved here and what constitutes proper measurements or whatever.

I just know there is a difference between the perception of working with someone, or working against them. It's a measure of maturity to be able to resolve arguments and misunderstandings in a civil fashion.

I just hope we all can resolve this quickly and continue to advance the thread in a forward direction.

I'm keeping in mind that all craig is doing is providing preliminary measurements to give an idea of what he is hearing. EQ-ing and finer details are coming soon. That's how I interpreted this, so even though I may examine the numbers for curiosity's sake, I'm not getting bent out of shape over splitting hairs.

 

[craigsub]

Gents, with phrasing like "lying" and "feeling cheated" coming from Ilkka, I really have no interest in being involved in any thread that he is involved in.

This is not anger - it is just plain resolve that I am not going to waste my time defending myself.

Once we have established Mr. I is no longer going to participate in this thread, I will be happy to answer any questions anyone else wishes to pose.

 

[kingtut]

I wonder why the mod has not intervened or commented?

 

[Ajax]

...but thanks guys for those many PMs I have received recently. It is nice to know that at least some people are leaning towards my direction.

And they are all "die hard 'XYZ' fans or YOUR closest friends." SO?

(I figure if you're going to dismiss Craig's supporters, it should be perfectly acceptable to dismiss yours )

 

[Ilkka]

And they are all "die hard 'XYZ' fans or YOUR closest friends." SO?

(I figure if you're going to dismiss Craig's supporters, it should be perfectly acceptable to dismiss yours )

I won't say any names, but unfortunately not. I don't even know most of them, but when I checked one's signature, it turns out he has an HSU sub.

 

[---k---]

I've never used TrueRTA, but it looked like Illka may have had a point (edit: about the 1/6 v/ 1/24 - which wasn't a huge deal. both graphs were measured in the same system, so...). I don't know. I wish he could have worded his question better, so he wouldn't offend. Craig has been called so many names, it is understanding why he is so easily offended. Illka should have known this, and have been more sensitive. Maybe he intentionally offended. I don't know.

However, I'm more concerned about the graphs he posted, which most seem to be ignoring. I need to spend more time with them to understand how Illka generated them, and look more at the in room response that Craig posted. But, it seems like he was using them to imply that Craig was either using some type of eq, or differnt sub/mic placement to measure the subs, because it is impossible to generate the graphs the way Craig claims he did.

Whatever. I guess that Craig has had enough and has checked out. So, I guess I'm going to check out too. Really no reason to continue, there isn't going to be new info, just bickering.

cheers,

 

[Ajax]

I won't say any names, but unfortunately not. I don't even know most of them, but when I checked one's signature, it turns out he has an HSU sub.

[sarcasm]Son of a gun! Looks like I was just as wrong as you were when you said everyone criticizing you was a "diehard HSU fan or Craig's closest friends." Whadaya know![/sarcasm]

 

[Ilkka]

I've never used TrueRTA, but it looked like Illka may have had a point (edit: about the 1/6 v/ 1/24 - which wasn't a huge deal. both graphs were measured in the same system, so...). I don't know. I wish he could have worded his question better, so he wouldn't offend. Craig has been called so many names, it is understanding why he is so easily offended. Illka should have known this, and have been more sensitive. Maybe he intentionally offended. I don't know.

I don't know how I have so deeply offended Craig, but clearly it wasn't intentional. I feel that some of us are acting very childish and not how grown men should act like. I have been called many names, but do I really care? We shouldn't be so thin-skinned, because in the real world we have to deal with much worse stuff than this. If not, I have to ask, in what kind of cotton world you live?

However, I'm more concerned about the graphs he posted, which most seem to be ignoring. I need to spend more time with them to understand how Illka generated them, and look more at the in room response that Craig posted. But, it seems like he was using them to imply that Craig was either using some type of eq, or differnt sub/mic placement to measure the subs, because it is impossible to generate the graphs the way Craig claims he did.

Now were are talking. I don't know why we are seeing these differences, but I would gladly find out, wouldn't you?

I made the TrueRTA GP simulation graphs by just looking at the relative differences between Ultra and "two" HSU subs. For example if Craig's graph showed that HSU was 10 dB higher at some frequency, I added it to Ultra's GP number (dB). I did the same thing for every frequency from 10 Hz to 100 Hz using 5 Hz increments. And then just plotted the graph.

And I'm sure HSU HO will not measure in quasi-anechoic environment the way I showed, so there must be something going on. I can't believe Craig's room would cause the difference, because subwoofers are located within 1' from each other. It could easily cause a few dB error here and there, but not a constant 5-15 dB bump in 20-60 Hz range. I've taken a lot of in-room subwoofer measurements in different rooms and I have a pretty good feel on how they react.

The only reason that I can think of would be using EQ like SMS-1 on either one or both, but since Craig says they are non-equalized, it's out of the question.

 

[Ilkka]

What Ilkka did was that he calculated the difference between the GP, and Craigs inroom FR for the Ultra. By doing that he now knows how the room affects the FR, and that could then be removed from the HOs inroom FR to give us a quasi GP FR for the HO.

Now that quasi GP FR for the HO does not look to good, so the question is why.

Bingo! Now someone give this man a cookie.

 

[Fierce Mice]

I'm disappointed that Craigsub has such a thin skin when it comes to Ilkka's "attacks", because this was a thoroughly enjoyable thread. Frankly, I think Ilkka raised valid questions that were swept under the rug.

Asking that he be removed by a mod seems to be awfully petty, and responding to the points that Ilkka raised rather than angrily reiterating what was previously said would have been a better response.

I'm even more diappointed by the fanboy-ish responses against Ilkka (McCarthyism?? I don't think that Ilkka could be correctly defined as the one who made hysterical, baseless attacks akin to those made by Joe McCarthy).

Thanks for the interesting read, Craigsub, and thanks for speaking up with valid questions, Ilkka...maybe next time you'll reword things to seem like less of an attack so the substance of your point won't be missed.

 

[Sheep]

So let me get this straight...

All the AVS guys had their thread closed because of arguing, so they come here and ruin this one?

Can a mod clean the crap out of this thread so it actually looks like a review?

SheepStar

 

[Ilkka]

Thanks for the interesting read, Craigsub, and thanks for speaking up with valid questions, Ilkka...maybe next time you'll reword things to seem like less of an attack so the substance of your point won't be missed.

Thanks. I've been on these American forums for quite some time, but I still can't understand how thin-skinned some people are. I just don't know how to handle them gently enough. This is something very strange for a straight forwarded Finn like me. Oh well, maybe I'll learn someday...