HDMI 2.1 Chipset Bug in AV Receivers Causing Gaming Problems

A

AVR Enthu

Enthusiast
I'm not a huge techie but am in the market for an AV Receiver to go with my PS5.

Are there any receivers under $1K right now that I could purchase that have HDMI 2.1 and do not have these issues w/ PS5? I'd prefer not to have to wait until the next few receivers are made, but I will if I have to.

I really appreciate any advice out there.
PS5 reportedly works fine with Denon/Marantz, if this is what you need.
The question is whether you really want a receiver with one single HDMI 2.1 port? In next couple of years, you are likely to add new HDMI 2.1 devices to home theatre gear. This will put you under pressure to buy an AVR with more HDMI 2.1 ports. Unless you are happy to exchange AVR every 2-3 years, I'd suggest you to wait until Q4 2021, as AVR is rather a longer-term investment and is meant to sit on our shelves for at least 5 years or more.
 
A

AVR Enthu

Enthusiast
Hi all, joined for this discussion, been watching a lot of audioholics on YouTube.

My understanding of the reason the PS5 functions through the SU recievers is because Sony released it pushing out 32 Gbps at 4:2:2 sampling. Sony plans to release an update relatively soon (next 6 months) to enable 40 Gbps at 4:4:4, which is what the Xbox runs at, which to me says that the functionality is a time bomb for the PS5 until Sony pushes their update.
It's not a "time bomb" for PS5, but more so for receivers. If and when 40 Gbps enabling firmware is released by Sony, this should work fine with all TVs, but it's unclear whether it's going to work with Panasonic SOlutions chip in AVRs. Both consoles work fine with TVs. AVRs' HDMI 2.1 chip is the problem.
 
Otto Pylot

Otto Pylot

Junior Audioholic
A big thanks to all you gamers for beta testing HDMI 2.1 for the rest of us non-gamers ;) .
 
A

AVR Enthu

Enthusiast
We have an initial report on new AMD graphic cards too. It does not look good either.

GPU AMD 6900XT --> Marantz 6015 --> LGX - black screen

The user reported being able to pass through 4K60 RGB 10 bit only; so FRL 4L6, ~20 Gbps.
 
B

BlackSpider777

Audiophyte
We have an initial report on new AMD graphic cards too. It does not look good either.

GPU AMD 6900XT --> Marantz 6015 --> LGX - black screen

The user reported being able to pass through 4K60 RGB 10 bit only; so FRL 4L6, ~20 Gbps.
hmmn, i wonder how denon/marantz are going to fix this issue? I guess new chipsets for the next year models? what about those who bought the Marantz Sr8015 which gets updates once in 3 years? they will have a warranty fix? Interesting it will be.

Thanks.
 
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pcosmic

pcosmic

Senior Audioholic
Extremely Simple fix:
Plug your hdmi out for video directly into the monitor/tv from gpu. Why the fk should your receiver fck with the video? No, leave the receiver out of it..
( if you played fighting games where every single ms of lag counts, this should already be a no brainer)

Use a 2nd out from your gpu into the receiver for audio only.
 
A

AVR Enthu

Enthusiast
hmmn, i wonder how denon/marantz are going to fix this issue? I guess new chipsets for the next year models? what about those who bought the Marantz Sr8015 which gets updates once in 3 years? they will have a warranty fix? Interesting it will be.

Thanks.
Recall is becoming more likely with every passing day and testing of new products with HDMI 2.1. It's unfortunate.

This year's models are reportedly on a 3 year cicle, unless they decide to stop production and revamp current models with new boards once a novel chip is ready. This is supposed to happen Q3-Q4 2021. They will certainly need to square the circle of budget vs. trust in the brand.
 
A

AVR Enthu

Enthusiast
Extremely Simple fix:
Plug your hdmi out for video directly into the monitor/tv from gpu. Why the fk should your receiver fck with the video? No, leave the receiver out of it..
( if you played fighting games where every single ms of lag counts, this should already be a no brainer)

Use a 2nd out from your gpu into the receiver for audio only.
You are right that a simple fix could be applied, no doubt about it. And I know that many new owners have tried to resort to it, being out of other choices. But that's not the point here and such fix defeats the purpose of using new technology that has been so widely and frequently advertised, including in more expensive models. HDMI 2.1 apprears to be in the top three features in official adverts and it carries 'heavy lifting' as a selling feature. If someone buys a new AVR for hundreds or thousands of $/£/€ after exposure to such adverstisement and numerous presentations of products throughout the summer, one would expect top functions to perform reliably, rather then being told to apply a simple fix. This temporary fix was officially recommended by Sound United too. It's not a fix, let's be clear about it. It's an embarrassment for the company that was not willing to wait long enough for a HDMI 2.1 chip to be properly tested with engineering samples of new sources.

It's not about gamers only either, as high frame rate is just one of several benefits of HDMI 2.1. Another one is throughput beyond 18 Gbps via RFL lanes, e.g. 4K60 RGB 10 bit content, where input lag is not that relevant. There are professionals and enthusiasts who would like to run their graphic simulations and high quality video projects with lossless music in the background with one simple connection that was supposed to work out of the box, rather than apply temporary workaround after spending so much money on new gear. Their new AVRs have one single HDMI 2.1 port, and it does not work properly. It's simply not acceptable. Many users also have one single HDMI port on their PCs, the one on GPU, and do not want to play with DP-HDMI workarounds, or are not aware of them, just to be able to extract audio. It's yet another hassle to make things work, yet another product to buy.

Finally, there are customers whose TVs or monitors do not necessarily have eARC function or their eARC is buggy, as we know from thousands of posts in different fora. Problems with eARC have plagued dozens of devices across the board for several years now and those issues frustrated so many people. The feature was supposed to deliver only one single thing - lossless sound back to AVR. Some new and popular TVs do not support pass through of DTS sound either. So, 'simple fix' is not that simple in specific configurations of home theatre or in professional studios.

Your practical advice can work for some users for time-being, which is fine, but it is not surprising that customers are increasingly angry and dissatisfied with multiple malfunctioning features that cannot make their audio-video systems running reliably.
 
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pcosmic

pcosmic

Senior Audioholic
It's not about gamers only either, as high frame rate is just one of several benefits of HDMI 2.1. Another one is throughput beyond 18 Gbps via RFL lanes, e.g. 4K60 RGB 10 bit content, where input lag is not that relevant. There are professionals and enthusiasts who would like to run their graphic simulations and high quality video projects with lossless music in the background with one simple connection that was supposed to work out of the box, rather than apply temporary workaround after spending so much money on new gear. Their new AVRs have one single HDMI 2.1 port, and it does not work properly. It's simply not acceptable. Many users also have one single HDMI port on their PCs, the one on GPU, and do not want to play with DP-HDMI workarounds, or are not aware of them, just to be able to extract audio. It's yet another hassle to make things work, yet another product to buy.
We can measure it and prove it!
This thread is not focusing on your graphics sims and video projects dude. OP was talking about gaming applications (check thread title again!). My son has a semi-pro gaming hobby. Believe me, i know this whole schpeel from head to toe :D . If you played anything competitive in the gaming realm (FPSs, fighting games, etc), connecting your video output from the PC into a receiver is pure sacrilege. These guys go to extreme lengths to get extremely low travel fast responsive buttons, extremely low lag pcbs in their controllers, etc, etc....all this stuff....

Sure, if you wanna walk around slowly in a RPG and shoot something gently from time to time (or do your video projects!), knock yourself out, plug it into a receiver, no problemo!
 
Gmoney

Gmoney

Audioholic Ninja
A big thanks to all you gamers for beta testing HDMI 2.1 for the rest of us non-gamers ;) .
I don't game, use to with the first PS, My Sons and All of my grandchildren do they all have their own PS 4 and will be getting the 5.
But yeah Thanks Gamers! for all the testing! of these new AVR's. You guy's have been posting up some very valuable info.
 
A

AVR Enthu

Enthusiast
These guys go to extreme lengths to get extremely low travel fast responsive buttons, extremely low lag pcbs in their controllers, etc, etc....all this stuff....
No doubt. I agree. Those are priorities for gamers that give them a competitive edge, even more so for pro or semi-pro gamers.

I just used an opportunity to express wider frustration with this year's marketing and implementation of HDMI 2.1 in AVRs. A product that was aggressively targeting gaming part of PC world has not actually delivered, not only for gamers, but more broadly too.
 
A

AVR Enthu

Enthusiast
New Yamaha receivers alleged to host 24 Gbps HDMI 2.1 ports only by Phil Jones

In this recap talk on HDMI 2.1 spec, Phil Jones from Sound United alleges that Yamaha has implemented HDMI 2.1 chips with 24 Gbps speed only, which means DSC compression for higher bandwidth signals in pipeline, especially 4K120 with higher colours and HDR.

If true, owners of home theatres with at least one device that can only work with uncompressed signals, such as LG TV 9 series, would not be able to use new Yamaha's receivers fully, beyond 4K60 HDR RGB or beyond 4K120 HDR 4:2:0 content, as this is where compression kicks in. LG C9 is expected to show black screen if run above those settings, as it does not support DSC in its EDID.

It could potentailly be a serious bottleneck issue and deal breaker for many people, rendering those receivers unfit or with limited use with majority of HDMI 2.1 gen devices with uncompressed traffic above 24 Gbps, such as TVs, consoles, GPUs and incoming monitors, PCs and NUCs.

(minutes 14-15 in the video)

Is Phil Jones telling us something that Yamaha does not want customers to know about their HDMI 2.1 multiple ports? It's a great way to divert attention from Denon's shameful black screens on Microsoft's console and unstable dynamic images from games and renderings played by graphics cards. However, if true, Yamaha'd better not dare releasing those high tier models until new, proper chips come in later on this year, otherwise those AVRs be a laughing stock generation, nothing better for home theatre integration than current offer by SU.

No one has encountered any bigger problems with new Yamahas because they still have not enabled HDMI 2.1 features through firmware. They also have not published the speed of their HDMI ports. It will be important for many to know. The HDMI 2.1 FRL (> 18Gpbs) mode and the higher resolutions and frame rates it allows will be enabled in a future firmware update. If anyone buys all these new AVRs now they won't know if it's broken/limited to alleged 24 Gbps until that update. It will probably be long after their return period has expired. That's why we need to know the true HDMI specs of these AVRs now and not later.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Overlord
Then each manufacturer will blame the other when the result is a black screen, or "not Supported" message. From posts here, it seems Samsung is a way down that road.
This is exactly what happened to me when I went back and forth between Audyssey and Marantz about inconsistencies with the editor app! I never did get a satisfactory solution so much as it just seemed to eventually "fix itself"...
This will kill home AV if something is not done to check it. People will just go for sound bars and HTIBs if for no other reason than that they will at least work until they blow up.

My advice to members is NOT to buy new gear unless you really have to. Have to means a piece of equipment fails. Otherwise keep what you have. Your major focus should be reliability. In order to really work the bugs out, I think we should go to 10 year model replacement cycles and not yearly.

I do not intend to replace any of the equipment I put in last year. I will not replace the older equipment in the other two systems until they fail. Most of those items are coming up to the 10 year mark. I do provide good protection though and strongly believe in engineering longevity and protection in.

From what you have said, and what I see happening, the worst decision members could probably make now is to upgrade anything with an HDMI input on it. I'm pretty certain we are in for troubled times and a bunch of hard knocks.
I'm with you. I've had my avr for close to 5 years now and it's still plenty current for me. No new features out there that I feel like I need. It still does everything I want and 4k is more than enough already. I have no desire to replace it anytime soon. I geek out over speakers and subs but the rest for me is good to go until it absolutely needs to be replaced.
 
Otto Pylot

Otto Pylot

Junior Audioholic
Device mfrs are not obligated to support the full HDMI 2.1 options sets to claim HDMI 2.1. And that's also true for how the supported option sets are implemented, so incompatibilities are bound to occur. Even though they are required to list which option sets are supported on the shipping units, they should also list the verified bandwidth, not just say "up to" or expect the consumer to just assume 48Gbps because it's HDMI 2.1. So far, only the gamers are having issues with HDMI 2.1 and some of the devices but eventually source material will appear for the movie crowd that is going to require the higher bandwidths (>40Gbps) so I hope these issues get corrected before too much longer. I really dislike HDMI.
 
M

Mr. Bill

Audiophyte
Yesterday a German audio website discovered a bug in the latest HDMI 2.1 chipsets sourced by Panasonic and utilized in the new Denon, Marantz and Yamaha HDMI 2.1 AV receivers. This bug can inhibit pass through of 4k/120Hz HDR and 8k/60 HDR for some devices like NVIDIA's newest graphics cards and the latest XBOX Series X gaming console.
I'm no genius, but I firmly believe two things need to happen in the world of AV:
1. They need to get rid of HDCP! Once again someone's form of DRM makes everything for the legitimate consumer a right pain in the rear end and does nothing to stop the bad people anyway. This useless technology is part of the reason we, the consumer, are having such a difficult time keeping up with the current tech in our home theaters.
2. All manufacturers need to list all of the specifications for their equipment at launch and stop the promises of, "With a future firmware update"! As far as I'm concerned that's marketing hype for. "The check is in the mail" and in many cases nothing more than a hollow promise to sell equipment. Once the firmware update has been properly tested and released to the public, then and only then should they provide updated specifications showing the actual specifications and highlighting the new features.

I'm sick and tired of reading article after article and forum after forum when trying to keep my home theater somewhat current, but only ever finding out that almost nothing meets all of my needs. A year after HDMI 2.0 came out I pulled the trigger on a new receiver and totally missed out on the fact it was still HDMI 1.4. Fast forward to 2019 and I shopped TVs for several months because my TV was failing. I finally bought one that was 4K, but it only had ARC support. Now what makes me so angry is that my receiver can pass 4K without issue, it just can't do HDCP 2.2, so I can't plug any 4K sources into it and just pass the video to the TV. And, since my TV only does ARC, plugging the 4K sources into the TV gets me nothing better than Dolby Digital + audio going back to the receiver. Now I can't even get a 2020 model receiver because I'm a gamer and plan to get an Xbox Series X at some point. At this point I feel like I just want to give up and get a cheap sound bar...
 
Otto Pylot

Otto Pylot

Junior Audioholic
@Mr. Bill I agree with 1 and 2 is already being done. The problem with 2 is that a lot of folks don't carefully read or understand the specs. They see "HDMI 2.1" and assume that means the entire suite of HDMI 2.1 options. If the option that I want or need is not listed as supported at launch then I think about how bad I need it or want it and then move onto something else, and not take a chance that either it will never get upgraded or the upgrade will break something else. What saves me is that I'm not a gamer, so HDMI 2.1 doesn't mean anything to me at this point in time and probably not for a long time hence. However, there are lots of gamers who HDMI 2.1 is important so they are the ones who get screwed the most.

Another issue that I see is that a lot of folks want their shiny new televisions to be game monitors as well. While tv's are getting closer, they aren't there yet. Unfortunately, the mfrs market their products as "all-in-one" and that's where a lot of folks get in trouble.
 
M

mulderfox

Audiophyte
I'm no genius, but I firmly believe two things need to happen in the world of AV:
1. They need to get rid of HDCP! Once again someone's form of DRM makes everything for the legitimate consumer a right pain in the rear end and does nothing to stop the bad people anyway. This useless technology is part of the reason we, the consumer, are having such a difficult time keeping up with the current tech in our home theaters.
2. All manufacturers need to list all of the specifications for their equipment at launch and stop the promises of, "With a future firmware update"! As far as I'm concerned that's marketing hype for. "The check is in the mail" and in many cases nothing more than a hollow promise to sell equipment. Once the firmware update has been properly tested and released to the public, then and only then should they provide updated specifications showing the actual specifications and highlighting the new features.

I'm sick and tired of reading article after article and forum after forum when trying to keep my home theater somewhat current, but only ever finding out that almost nothing meets all of my needs. A year after HDMI 2.0 came out I pulled the trigger on a new receiver and totally missed out on the fact it was still HDMI 1.4. Fast forward to 2019 and I shopped TVs for several months because my TV was failing. I finally bought one that was 4K, but it only had ARC support. Now what makes me so angry is that my receiver can pass 4K without issue, it just can't do HDCP 2.2, so I can't plug any 4K sources into it and just pass the video to the TV. And, since my TV only does ARC, plugging the 4K sources into the TV gets me nothing better than Dolby Digital + audio going back to the receiver. Now I can't even get a 2020 model receiver because I'm a gamer and plan to get an Xbox Series X at some point. At this point I feel like I just want to give up and get a cheap sound bar...
So.. you're basically ranting about not paying attention a few times when buying new items, and getting stuck with obsolete technology? Simply research what you're buying beforehand. That's a good advice for any tech purchase. Yes, the "with future firmware update" is definitely a marketing hype, but buying a TV or receiver with lower specs without checking compatibility with anything you have or plan to have - that's on you.
 

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