HDMI 2.1 Chipset Bug in AV Receivers Causing Gaming Problems

L

leash

Audiophyte
Correct me if I'm wrong, but basically, every major receiver manufacturer gets their chip sets from the exact same supplier. That is the problem. Lack of risk diversification in the 'ole supply chain.

Is there any other company that makes them? Might be a good stock buy.
 
A

AVR Enthu

Enthusiast
  • VRR and its stability in moving images (e.g. games/graphic simulations) is the feature that was not addressed in this latest update from SU. We can only see a static image from Nvidia's GPU on display. The slide which Phil Jones displayed in the video does not list VRR feature among other HDMI 2.1 features on AVR's input-output info menu (~6.50 minute). Denon officially supports VRR in marketing material on their website. Should it not be at least listed in the demo slide-show, even if it is not switched on? This needs to be clarified.
  • VRR sync issues that have been reported by several users testing 3080 GPUs on these AVR seem to be linked not only to pass-through support on AVR, as part of HDMI 2.1 spec, but also as more general issue with VRR sync on TVs, without any involvement of AVRs. A beta firmware for this issue on LGX is explored and tested by Vincent in his video here Vincent - VRR firmware for LGX. He has another video for VRR on LG C9. And the issue itself was reported by him here VRR gamma issue on LG TVs
  • If HDMI 2.1 AVR can pass through VRR and it still does not work as intended (e.g. stuttering, flaky, unstable image, etc.), the culprit will probably be TV's correct support for it, especially at high frames in 4K120Hz setting. If anyone knows more about this, please make a post. It seems the only blame that new AVRs could take for VRR is if the the feature is advertised, but not supported. We cannot see the support for it on Jones's slide show. Is this how we should read Jones's slide of input-output menu without VRR on it? (screen-shot attached)
 

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AVR Enthu

Enthusiast
Correct me if I'm wrong, but basically, every major receiver manufacturer gets their chip sets from the exact same supplier. That is the problem. Lack of risk diversification in the 'ole supply chain.

Is there any other company that makes them? Might be a good stock buy.
Not at the moment, it seems. AVR market is not that big to require more companies producing new repeater chips. It's an expensive R&D process. Perhaps this fiasco with the launch of first gen of HDMI 2.1 AVRs could create new opportunities to have a back-up chip in a pipeline. This is one of reasons why niche high-end AVRs firms, such as Anthem, did not want to rush HDMI 2.1 boards into the market.
 
H

Herschel

Audiophyte
Basically, those who have 2019 or older, we are screwed?
 
Otto Pylot

Otto Pylot

Audioholic Intern
Basically, those who have 2019 or older, we are screwed?
Yep. As far as fully functional HDMI 2.1 goes. There are some options of HDMI 2.1 that can be upgraded to the HDMI 2.0 chipsets, if the mfr designed the chipsets for that. What they want you to do is spend big bucks on the next gen of devices even tho they haven't been proven yet to be reliable. Marketing 101.
 
H

Herschel

Audiophyte
Yep. As far as fully functional HDMI 2.1 goes. There are some options of HDMI 2.1 that can be upgraded to the HDMI 2.0 chipsets, if the mfr designed the chipsets for that. What they want you to do is spend big bucks on the next gen of devices even tho they haven't been proven yet to be reliable. Marketing 101.
I thought so....I was dreaming. I need to see if the difference is that big between 60 FPS and 120 FPS to spend another $2,500 on a new receiver
 
Otto Pylot

Otto Pylot

Audioholic Intern
I thought so....I was dreaming. I need to see if the difference is that big between 60 FPS and 120 FPS to spend another $2,500 on a new receiver
If you're a gamer, maybe. But HDMI 2.1 is really only for the gamers at this point in time. They are the beta testers for HDMI 2.1. It will still be a long time time before there is source material (movies, etc) that can take full advantage of the HDMI 2.1 option sets, let alone true 12-bit panels.
 
S

Sparky04

Audiophyte
This is actually a blatant misinformation attempt from Sound United. The hardware bug in the Panasonic HDMI 2.1 chips cannot and will not be fixed. There is no work around. The bug appears only with 4k + 120HZ + HDR enabled + no sub sampling (4:4:4 mode). HDR without subsampling is the main issue here. With this combination even pass through doesn't work, and never will with this generation of receivers.

This is because they are limited to 32GBit bandwidth, instead of the full 40/48GBit in the HDMI 2.1 spec. Playstation 5 uses sub sampling with reduced image quality, so 4k + 120Hz + HDR will work. XBOX and Nvidia try to connect using full 40/48 GBit bandwidth and maximum image quality, and since the receivers don't support it you get a blank screen.
 
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M

mulderfox

Audiophyte
This is actually a blatant misinformation attempt from Sound United. The hardware bug in the Panasonic HDMI 2.1 chips cannot and will not be fixed. There is no work around. The bug appears only with 4k + 120HZ + HDR enabled + no sub sampling (4:4:4 mode). HDR without subsampling is the main issue here. With this combination even pass through doesn't work, and never will with this generation of receivers.

This is because they are limited to 32GBit bandwidth, instead of the full 40/48GBit in the HDMI 2.1 spec. Playstation 5 uses sub sampling with reduced image quality, so 4k + 120Hz + HDR will work. XBOX and Nvidia try to connect using full 40/48 GBit bandwidth and maximum image quality, and since the receivers don't support it you get a blank screen.
Thanks for the clarification. Why would Panasonic release a HDMI 2.1 solution that doesn't comply with the basic specs fully? I doubt it's about cost. Maybe it was rushed to market. And waiting for the next generation of receivers (which may or may not contain a different/updated HDMI board) could take a year.. so since I am not a console player, I would probably opt for the current 8k generation anyways.
 
S

Sparky04

Audiophyte
Because at the time of design the HDMI 2.1 spec was not finalized yet.
 
B

BlackSpider777

Audiophyte
This is actually a blatant misinformation attempt from Sound United. The hardware bug in the Panasonic HDMI 2.1 chips cannot and will not be fixed. There is no work around. The bug appears only with 4k + 120HZ + HDR enabled + no sub sampling (4:4:4 mode). HDR without subsampling is the main issue here. With this combination even pass through doesn't work, and never will with this generation of receivers.

This is because they are limited to 32GBit bandwidth, instead of the full 40/48GBit in the HDMI 2.1 spec. Playstation 5 uses sub sampling with reduced image quality, so 4k + 120Hz + HDR will work. XBOX and Nvidia try to connect using full 40/48 GBit bandwidth and maximum image quality, and since the receivers don't support it you get a blank screen.
from what i read the Nvidia new GPU Cards are working fine with 4k@120 & HDR, seems to be only the Xbox Series X having the issue now.
 
Otto Pylot

Otto Pylot

Audioholic Intern
Because at the time of design the HDMI 2.1 spec was not finalized yet.
I think it was more of a failure in QA/QC testing because of the rush to be "the first on the block" with an HDMI 2.1 device. Besides, it's so much easier to blame the cable mfrs for the failure than own up to the buggy chipset.
 
S

Sparky04

Audiophyte
from what i read the Nvidia new GPU Cards are working fine with 4k@120 & HDR, seems to be only the Xbox Series X having the issue now.
No, there is no receiver on the market that supports 4k 120Hz HDR 4:4:4 sampling. Blank screen even on pass-through.
 
A

AVR Enthu

Enthusiast
This is actually a blatant misinformation attempt from Sound United. The hardware bug in the Panasonic HDMI 2.1 chips cannot and will not be fixed. There is no work around. The bug appears only with 4k + 120HZ + HDR enabled + no sub sampling (4:4:4 mode). HDR without subsampling is the main issue here. With this combination even pass through doesn't work, and never will with this generation of receivers.

This is because they are limited to 32GBit bandwidth, instead of the full 40/48GBit in the HDMI 2.1 spec. Playstation 5 uses sub sampling with reduced image quality, so 4k + 120Hz + HDR will work. XBOX and Nvidia try to connect using full 40/48 GBit bandwidth and maximum image quality, and since the receivers don't support it you get a blank screen.
This is not entirely accurate and there is no evidence of "blatant misinformation".
Both Phil Jones from SU, public reviewers and number of users reported that 40 Gbps link GPU-AVR works. Jones showed that 4K120 10 bit RGB passes through (link to video below). His demo did not show 444 setting passing through, as it was focused on showing that 40 Gbps link works. HDMI spec suggests that RGB/444 should use the same bandwidth, but whether Denon's EDID suports 444 with this resolution and frame rate, it remains to be revealed. If any member has screen-shots of 444 setting not working with 40 Gbps signal, please let us know, so that we could update our knowledge.
Phil Jones showing GPU-AVR 4K120 10 bit

However, just after SU's update ~2 weeks ago, there are other issues to be clarified, such as widely reported instability of 40 Gbps connection with moving images and graphic simulations, VRR function not working properly and absent on Denon's info menu screen-shots in the demo, etc. So, yes, a lot of "fun" ahead in 2021. I will post another text showing the summary of what currently works and what does not work.
 
A

AVR Enthu

Enthusiast
This is what we currently know about the state of HDMI 2.1 chips and connections. The summary comes as a result of gathering information from official sources, reviewers and home users who posted screen-shots of their gear, mostly new Denon/Marantz, TVs, GPUs and consoles.
What works:
  • GPU-TV: Nvidia 3000 can do 4L12 RGB/444 (48 Gbps) on LG9 and 4L10 RGB/444 (40 Gbps) to LGX; non-DSC signal
  • Console-TV: XbX can do FRL 4L10 RGB/444 (40 Gbps) on LG9 and LGX: non-DSC signal
  • Console-AVR: PS5 can do FRL 4L8 422 chroma (32 Gbps) through AVR (Denon); non-DSC signal
What almost works:
  • GPU-AVR: Nvidia 3000 can do 4L10 RGB (40 Gbps) through Denon - again, non-DSC; now, with VRR/Gsync on, image has been reported as unstable. Vincent Theo named it "flaky" (it's unclear whether firmware solution from Denon, Nvidia or LG can fix this?)
  • SU's recent update article stated as follows: "Sound United's engineers achieved 4K/120 passthrough success with all the following graphics formats: RGB 8-bit, RGB 10-bit, YCbCr420 8-bit, YCbCr420 10-bit, and YCbCr420 12-bit." (we knew this before, but additional chroma combinations have been added after testing)
  • VRR and its stability in games/graphic simulations is what was not addressed in the latest update from SU. The slide which Jones displayed does not list VRR feature and Denon officially supports it in marketing material on their website.
  • VRR issues that have been reported seem to be linked not only to pass-through support on AVR, as part of HDMI 2.1 spec, but also more general issue with VRR content displayed on TVs, without any involvement of AVRs. A beta firmware for this issue on LGX is explored and tested by Vincent in his video here Vincent - VRR firmware for LGX. And the issue itself was reported by him here VRR gamma issue on LG TVs
  • If HDMI 2.1 AVR can pass through VRR and it still does not work as intended (e.g. stuttering, flaky, unstable image, etc.), the culprit will probably be TV's correct support for it, especially at high frames in 4K120Hz setting. If anyone knows more about this, please make a post. So, it seems that the only blame that AVRs could take for VRR is if the the feature is advertised, but not supported. Is this how we should read Jones's slide?
What does not work or is limited (black screen, signal degradation or bandwidth limits):
  • XbX --> AVR (incompatibility linked to inability of AVR to receive FRL signal)
    a) FRL 4L10 signal (HDMI 2.1, 40 Gbps) - 4K120 from XbX and AVR '8K enhanced' mode - black screen
    b) degradation to TMDS signal (HDMI 2.0, 18 Gbps) - XbX and AVR 'enhanced' mode - Denon reads it as 4K60 RGB or 4K120 420, both at 8 bit (these work as intended by HDMI 2.0)
  • PS5 is limited to 32Gbps, AVRs, XbX and LGX are limited to 40Gbps, LG9 (plus a few other TVs) and new GPUs have full 48 Gbps
  • AMD GPU 6900XT-->> Marantz 6015 in '8K enhanced' mode - black screen
This leads us to current observations and questions about HDMI 2.1 chips:
  • Panasonic Solutions chip works fine with another Panasonic Solutions chip (PS5 --> AVR at 32Gbps)
  • Nvidia GPU chip works fine with both TVs, at 40Gbps with LGX and at 48Gbps with LG9 (with VRR issues, if engaged)
  • XbX 40Gbps chip works fine at its full speed with both LG TVs (again, possible VRR issues)
  • Denon repeater chip does not like XbX chip (issues with FRL signalling; firmware unlikely to solve it)
  • Yamaha's behaviour is expected to be similar once HDMI 2.1 is enabled (the same Panasonic Solutions chip)
  • Nvidia's GPU chip almost works with Denon at 40 Gbps (image is unstable, with or without VRR)
  • Does Panasonic Solutions chip in AVRs support VRR?
I am happy to update this summary, whenever members post updates from testing.
 
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A

AVR Enthu

Enthusiast
Basically, those who have 2019 or older, we are screwed?
No one is "screwed". You just need to be patient until HDMI 2.1 issues are resolved, unless you want to go ahead and buy "half-baked" AVR with buggy chip. It currently works in specific scenarios only. Have a look into my summary above and see if any configuration can work for you. If not, please wait until new chips are installed in AVRs, which is likely to happen in Q4 2021. There are genuine supply chain and factory production delays because of the pandemic. That's it.
 
A

AVR Enthu

Enthusiast
That seems like it needs to be done in the Xbox... as I understand it Microsoft is compressing the signal prior to output. *shrugs
No. XboxX can send fully uncompressed signal of 40 Gbps directly to LG TV. It reads FRL 4L10 on info screen, so it works. Adding VRR to it might be a problem, though, for different reasons that I have already posted.
 
A

AVR Enthu

Enthusiast
Really, just too bad that Microsoft apparently is sucking the big one again on implementation.
Microsoft's chip works fine with LG TVs and sends 40 Gbps signal. The culprit is Panasonic Solution's chip in AVRs.
 
A

AVR Enthu

Enthusiast
Yeah. Sounds like it was entirely a setup issue between the AVR and the sources(s). Don't know about Yamaha, but it looks like the only culpability SU has, now somewhat remedied, is an incomplete owners manual.

On the other hand, I am amused by folks who plug one computer (game system) into another computer (AVR) and just expect them to work together with bleeding edge technology without any setup.
No. Numerous sources reported that not all setups work with AVRs. It's rather SU that has a lot of work to do to make it happen, including hardware recalls, if necessary, as console devices and GPUs work fine when directly plugged to TVs with HDMI 2.1 ports. 32/40/48 Gbps signals work with LG TVs. It's Panasonic Solutions chip in AVRs that does not work properly and cannot pass through specific signals. Please see my summary for more information on what we know so far.
 

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