HDMI 2.1 Chipset Bug in AV Receivers Causing Gaming Problems

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Trebdp83

Audioholic Field Marshall
Without knowing anything about this, I really question the HDMI certification process, too, and the culpability there. Reminds me of the FAA letting aerospace manufacturers self-certify; what could possibly go wrong?
Well, the spec wasn’t final until late January. But, manufacturers were putting HDMI 2.1 “features” in their products to sweeten the pot. Ultra Certified HDMI cables just showed up though many were selling cables that were HDMI 2.1 “capable.” Yeah, it‘s all good til’ none of it works. As was stated earlier, early adopters pay the price. The folks that bought the first round of 4K TVs felt it too. I can hear the Soup Nazi, “No HDR for you!”
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Samurai
This is the typical first adopter problem: You get the bragging rights but the product at it's inflated price is buggy as hell.
 
M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
Thanks for getting back on this. I appreciate it.
Please don't misunderstand, SU deserves to wear pie on their face over this. So does Yamaha.

Out of curiosity, as an 'insider,' do you know if Nuvoton-Panasonic has updated the chipset for new products coming out this year? Or are we in for a long morass of HDMI 2.1 implementation?
Yes...
There are some updated HDMI 2.1 ICs now in testing..
But don't expect to see these until 1st quarter 2022...

Just my $0.02... ;)
 
X

Xcel

Audiophyte
Still stunned by the anger directed at one company who isn’t even responsible for the flawed product in question: the actual chipset itself.
Yes, at least two major companies dropped the ball on implementation. I get it. We’ve been over this… six pages ago.
So everybody freaking out over just Sound United actually doing something to make their systems work as advertised is beyond silly.
Panasonic Solutions, now Nuvoton Technology, is the manufacturer: they released and sold buggy gear. Sony and Microsoft have a responsibility in this too, frankly. No this does not absolve SU and Yamaha for their part in not testing things… but it would have required them having PS5s and XBox with working content over a year before the consoles were publicly available.
(Perhaps @M Code could she’d light on when SU and Yam went to production vs Sony and MS going to production, please. :) )

On top of all of this, I haven’t seen one person bag on Yamaha the way everybody is piling on SU. And, SU has actually done something about it. Whether you like it or not: immaterial. But they have done something to Yamaha’s nothing.

And in the end, this is really still just a big lesson in the risks of both being First To Market, as well as Early Adoption.

*steps off soapbox
Why should I give any thought whatsoever to who SU suppliers are other than mere curiosity? I have a relationship with Denon/Sound United via my purchase with their written warranty, not Nuvoton or any other of well over a 100 companies that have parts in the product. If SU has a problem with a supplier they can deal with them legally or through negotiations, I couldn't care less. I think it is quite weird that anyone would have any anger at all with one of their suppliers. It is the responsibility of the manufacturer to make sure they have engineered a product competently and as advertised. SU chose to use the part in question and it is their responsibility to make sure it works. SU clearly failed and needs to make it right, this silly box is not making it right.
 
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T

Trebdp83

Audioholic Field Marshall
Early adopters need a break on this one and EVERY manufacturer advertising and selling supposed HDMI 2.1 gear deserves what they get from this mess. The f#%kin’ spec was not finalized! Yamaha is supposedly putting out updates next month. If any of them address this issue is unknown. Anybody who purchased a 2020 Yamaha knew those features were not working out of the box but those units had other issues. Denon/Marantz units were supposed to have working HDMI 2.1 features. Those two flimflam men should be selling used cars on the bad side of town, not pitching quality audio gear. Folks would know exactly what they were dealing with in that venue. Yeah, I said it. I said worse to Yamaha and got a free receiver out of them. The SU units do not work as advertised. They came up with a workaround. Can we stop with the fanboy s#%t? You’d think this was an Apple forum. Once working units are produced, SU could take trade-ins and give discounts to those who purchased 2020 models and want a fully functional unit. Just an idea. Oh, Happy May Day everybody!:p
 
jliedeka

jliedeka

Audioholic General
I think the HDMI folks also deserve some of the blame. Having both compressed and uncompressed 4k120 allowed guaranteed that implementers would make incompatible choices.

That said, SU could have maybe picked up the phone and asked Sony and Microsoft how they were implementing 4k120 video before deciding on a chip set.
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
The first clue HDMI 2.1 was not close to ready was seeing TVs and AVRs only supporting 40g instead of 48g.

I’ll try to wait for 2023 or 2024. :)
 
M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
Without knowing anything about this, I really question the HDMI certification process, too, and the culpability there. Reminds me of the FAA letting aerospace manufacturers self-certify; what could possibly go wrong?
1 of the major advantages of having an HDMI product being submitted for compliance to the HDMI testing center beyond just processing and operation of supporting features ..
Is that the product is tested for interoperability with other HDMI components including CEC...
Note that certain products like a cable box or satellite tuner or game console connected directly to the HD display with HDMI has a wider tolerance for reliable operation. Because it is simply a source, sending an encoded stream to the HD display for decoding... But an AVR does much more; its HDMI circuit is actually a "repeater..."
The AVR does the following:
  • Takes the incoming encoded HDMI stream
  • Extracts the audio and decodes it for processing and sound output
  • Extracts the video, decodes the stream
  • Re-encodes the HDMI stream exporting to the HD display
  • Re-encoded HDMI stream/timing must be a mirror image of the native incoming HDMI input stream
Just my $0.02... ;)
 
A

AVR Enthu

Audioholic Intern
It shoud be noted that Sound United's video demo of the new adapter box shows that the signal passed through was 32 Gbps at 8-bit, with no HDR and no VRR. The XboxX console is capable of outputting 40 Gbps, with HDR and VRR to capable TV. It works perfectly fine, at 40 Gbps+HDR+VRR with LG TVs when connected directly to it.

HDR and VRR are still officially advertised features on AVRs by Sound United. Both features have not been shown to work with a new HDMI adapter box. What is going on here?

The last section of the video demo does show info screen with 40 Gbps, but this is not signal from XboxX. This section of new video is a fake - it's a copy and paste from their December's video where they showed video connection with Nvidia's 3080 GPU, which was 40 Gbps signal. Why did they copy and paste irrelevant information into new video?

At 3:33 in the new video we see 10-bit at 40Gbps. We don't know what the source of the signal is here. New video clip is not 100% original recording.
If you freeze 3:33 moment in the new video and freeze December's video on 6:30, you will see exactly the same room and furniture setting, position of cables and devices.
New video with HDMI adapter 32 Gbps
December video with Nvidia RTX 40 Gbps

Therefore, new HDMI adapter has not been demonstrated to pass 40 Gbps with XboxX; only 32 Gbps - a degraded signal.

Someone needs to call or write an email to SU and request from them to clarify why is it that they did not show general info menu with new HDMI adapter at eh end of new video, but instead used information from old video with Nvidia GPU. Are they trying to hide that new adapter can only pass through 32 Gbps?
 
W

WookieGR

Junior Audioholic
All this activity over a single input is a joke. There are still at least two more devices for gamers that need consideration. That box should have had three in and one out to compensate for the lack of inputs on the receivers. The industry desperately needs a modern switcher and as of today, none exist. One with not only HDMI in but cat6 for extended runs. I would imagine a modern HDMI 2.1 switcher with five in and one out that does the signal processing to compensate for the display device would sell tremendously to not only the mature gaming market but for high end videophiles wanting future proof options on their 8K projectors and TV's to distribute high bandwidths from their server closets.
 
A

AVR Enthu

Audioholic Intern
All this activity over a single input is a joke. There are still at least two more devices for gamers that need consideration. That box should have had three in and one out to compensate for the lack of inputs on the receivers. The industry desperately needs a modern switcher and as of today, none exist. One with not only HDMI in but cat6 for extended runs. I would imagine a modern HDMI 2.1 switcher with five in and one out that does the signal processing to compensate for the display device would sell tremendously to not only the mature gaming market but for high end videophiles wanting future proof options on their 8K projectors and TV's to distribute high bandwidths from their server closets.
I agree that more modern connectivity is needed, but buying yet another device (switch) makes little sense. AVRs or AV processors are by design a kind of HDMI switch. It should be enough if entire board has all HDMI 2.1 inputs and 2-3 outputs properly implemented. Future AVRs need to step up the game with video connectivity and introduce DisplayPort and AV over Ethernet with encoders, decoders and transcoders inside the box, to give consumers more connectivity options.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Spartan
I saw this heads up on the New Aventage Thread... It sounds like Yamaha is still limiting some capacity of the HDMI ports on these new machines. We still have yet to hear from SU on their 2021 releases...
But this is interesting because it looks like neither of these flagships will be upgraded beyond the Digital Board.

The Big Question:
What number of HDMI 2.1 ports in and out? ***EDIT: Read answer below in post 156!
Will there be any limitations similar to what one poster said of the new Yammies?:
I just confirmed with Yamaha that 4k@120hz will only be available on 3 in and 1 out for the three new models.
And bigger still...
What is up SU's sleeve for 2021?
 
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S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
Edit: Sounds like replacing hdmi boards is what Yamaha is doing.
 
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ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Spartan
This is a duplicate post from HERE, but I thought it a rare occasion where a double post was appropriate.

Just saw this on the Marantz Site for the 8805A:
Enjoy exquisite video performance thanks to the latest HDMI technologies. The Marantz AV8805A includes 8 HDMI inputs and 3 outputs for all your favorite sources. One dedicated 8K input supports 8K/60Hz or 4K/120Hz pass-through capability, while Dolby Vision, HLG, HDR10+, 21:9 video, 3D, BT.2020 pass-through and HDCP 2.3 copy protection standard is supported on all HDMI inputs.
This is more than just a little bit of a shame.
And this for the Denon X8500HA:
The Denon AVR-X8500HA AV Receiver features an advanced HDMI section (8 in/3 out) with a dedicated 8K input that supports 8K/60Hz or 4K/120Hz video pass-through. Each of the HDMI inputs provide available 8K upscaling, 4:4:4 Pure Color subsampling, HDR10, Dolby Vision, Hybrid Log-Gamma (HLG) and BT.2020 pass-through support for incredible color, sharp clarity and dynamic contrast.
The main HDMI output even features Enhanced Audio Return Channel (eARC) HDMI support. This allows you to connect your TV or Projector via eARC to allow uncompressed and object-based audio formats like Dolby Atmos® and DTS:X® directly from your smart TV app to the AV receiver.
More SAME... More SHAME!

I get these are older products getting an upgrade, and perhaps there is something keeping SU from making these Digital Board upgrades COMPLETE.
Unfortunately, this is the corporate equivalent of curling up in the sandlot and letting the rest of the kick-ballers kick them in the balls!
If SU doesn't step up with something serious for the 2021 release under both brands, they will risk losing some serious market share to Yamaha and anybody else that steps to the plate with even just a little swagger. Imagine if Anthem got their house in order and released a flawless HDMI 2.1 update later this year as they claim they will...

Are the SU Brands going to be left with nothing to do but chase people around in Best Buy offering free dongles to anybody that's willing to take their AVR/Ps?
 
A

AHRAK

Audiophyte
I certainly agree with the other readers that there should be more HDMI inputs instead of outputs. Knowing that there is two 2.1 HDMI components out on the market and SU decided to install just one input on both of receivers does not make any sense. I currently own the 8500H but I don't see the justification of sending my unit for the upgrade of one input. Most likely on the next Denon flagship receiver, there will be multiple inputs liked on the current Yamaha models. Plus the $600 price tag for this upgrade is kind of steep for such a minimal upgrade on just one input and having two outputs. It would be nice if SU would give another option where could be two or three inputs and just one outputs. Then I would consider sending my unit in for the upgrade.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Spartan
As best I can tell, the first gen chipset was not only buggy but limited in what it can do. I won’t believe Yamaha's upgrade to the 2020 models until I see it.
The new 2021 models are reliant on the gen 2 chipset according to the post in ASR linked above. Clearly still limited, but less so, and not yet proven in the wild. So we’ll see how this plays out.
If the ASR thread is to be believed, many companies are waiting and watching to see how these 2nd gen chipsets operate before possible implementation. Frankly, I don’t see many jumping on board if they are still so limited… especially the luxury brands like Trinnov. Hell, I really don’t expect Anthem to embrace that limitation either. I see this as a poor compromise, though necessary perhaps for the companies battling over the everyday market share.

To that point, my derisive attitude about SU’s two flagship products receiving such an expensive upgrade to an inferior digital board (which will likely be rendered obsolete in 2023 when we should expect the gen 3 chipsets to be implemented (and hopefully fully baked/ready for prime time!)) is what everybody should be telling all the companies. Too many people were too eager to eat up the latest tech because of Sony and Micosoft releasing their consoles. If everybody that was on the fence runs out and does this again... what happens if the Gen 2 chipset doesn't make the grade? I think consumers need to show some restraint and not purchase until the tech is fixed. The more inferior product we lay money out for, the more likely it is we keep receiving inferior product in the future.
These manufacturers should frankly be leaning hard into the conversation about the crappy HDMI situation and looking at ways to move beyond. I'm not arguing for a change from HDMI necessarily, but it certainly seems there is no real competition in the production of the HDMI chipset itself and that is what should change.
I'd love to know that I'm wrong... but if I am, and we are still not seeing the improvements that should should have been there on day 1, there is something more that we should all be angry about.

*steps off soapbox
 
A

AVR Enthu

Audioholic Intern
I just confirmed with Yamaha that 4k@120hz will only be available on 3 in and 1 out for the three new models.
Who has confirmed this with Yahama? Is this official communication?

Crutchfield made a listing with this information 3-in-1-out, but Yamaha's information is that entire HDMI terminal is capable of 4K120.

Can anyone confirm whether all HDMI ports on the three new models are 40 Gbps or just three of those? It's weird not to know this basic information, after entire year of turbulence... Clarity is much appreciated.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Spartan
Who has confirmed this with Yahama? Is this official communication?

Crutchfield made a listing with this information 3-in-1-out, but Yamaha's information is that entire HDMI terminal is capable of 4K120.

Can anyone confirm whether all HDMI ports are 40 Gbps or just three of those? It's weird not to know this basic information, after entire year of turbulence...
It was a post in another thread which I quoted... likely the new Aventage thread as the HDMI issue cropped up there. :) I don't recall seeing any additional info yet from anybody.

There are a lot of people wanting some clarification on what's going on with the state of HDMI 2.1. It will be nice if the Gen2 Chipset Yamaha is said to be using will work for the full panel of HDMI ports, input and output.
 

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