Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Now that Tesla is open to charge all EVs, it does seem like the large Tesla network is a threat all those other networks. Electrify America may survive, but some of the smaller networks may not survive long as they exist now. Tesla didn't do that on its own, the US Government strongly encouraged this. In the future, I don't think the US Govt. will want to support an EV charging monopoly. There should be competition. This whole field will grow, and should attract well-funded investors.

To be fair, when Tesla first made EVs, there was no standard plug-port charging system, so they invented their own. And, Tesla did invest in a large fast DC charging network far earlier than the others. Because they were 'the first-est with the most-est' they can dominate – for the time being. In the past, Standard Oil dominated gas stations, but other competitors did arise.

Now it seems only the NACS and J1772/CCS plug-port systems remain. The CHAdeMo plug-port does remain but seems to already be on its way out. Did the Nissan Leaf use that? But the question remains, why should there be two systems, one in North America and one in Europe? One common system is the only sensible way to proceed.
 
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Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
When I first picked up my Volvo C40, I remember asking the salesman what recharging company apps he had on his phone. He said the answer is complex, and depends on where I drive. He did say he tries to limit the apps on his phone to only 3.

Now, I have 3 apps: ChargePoint, Electrify America, and PlugShare.

ChargePoint I got this first because my neighborhood has 2 ChargePoint chargers available for homeowners, and because I bought a ChargePoint Level 2 charger for my home. I use my home charger most of the time, and have not yet used ChargePoint to charge on the road.

Electrify America I've used this every time I've charged up on two long distance road trips. So far, I've been satisfied with them.

PlugShare does not operate its own charging network, its a 3rd party app that helps guide EV owners to chargers while on the road. But it does provide useful info about each location, such as how potent the chargers are and if they actually work. Someone recommended it to me, but I may delete it. Google Maps (in my EV) and Electrify America (on my phone) provide the same info.

And, I'll probably download the Tesla app in the near future. Between Electrify America and Tesla, I'll be good – for the time being. Until the day when Exxon-Mobile merges to create Exxon-Tesla – or when Tesla buys Exxon-Mobile :eek:!
 
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ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Would Tesla have to divest themselves from "ownership" of the NACS plug if it were to become THE standard for the US?
Are there other examples? Toslink and SPDIF? What about the Cannon plug (now XLR)? I'm sure there are others but these just come to mind quickly as I type on an audio forum. :p But all of those started as proprietary and have been adopted by everyone.
So what does this look like, possibly, going forward for NACS?

And though it would be sensible to have a global standard, there are likewise many examples of different "standards" by region. We don't even have a global standard for electrical outlets, so... *shrugs
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
Would Tesla have to divest themselves from "ownership" of the NACS plug if it were to become THE standard for the US?
Are there other examples? Toslink and SPDIF? What about the Cannon plug (now XLR)? I'm sure there are others but these just come to mind quickly as I type on an audio forum. :p But all of those started as proprietary and have been adopted by everyone.
So what does this look like, possibly, going forward for NACS?

And though it would be sensible to have a global standard, there are likewise many examples of different "standards" by region. We don't even have a global standard for electrical outlets, so... *shrugs
How about we use metric? LMAO. Tesla opened up their system earlier this year when facing the possibility of CCS becoming the standard and that seems to have worked in their favor.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
How about we use metric? LMAO. Tesla opened up their system earlier this year when facing the possibility of CCS becoming the standard and that seems to have worked in their favor.
And they also have more than double the charger network of all competitors combined.

BTW... I'm all for metric. When I was cooking professionally all my recipes were in metric! ;)
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
Not enough infrastructure in place. We can barely make it through the summer without brown outs because of AC loads on the grid. You want to throw charging EV's on top of that? Bad idea.
 
cpp

cpp

Audioholic Ninja
All of this talk about chargers got me thinking and then in a local online rag, the writer is complaining about the lack of charging stations around the county. Which leads up to my question. Who is responsible for installing charging stations, the city, the county, the business that has the room, the state, the DOT, the Government. We have noted about TESLA and the Govt and other charge companines installing chargers, but what about appt complexes.

I found some cost:
Charger costs for residential use vary from $700 to $900 for a Level 1 charger and $1,400 to $4,100 for a Level 2 charger, with higher costs for apartments, according to the International Council on Clean Transportation’s review of charging infrastructure costs (PDF) across major U.S. metropolitan areas. This review also showed that public and workplace costs per charger range from $596 to $813 for Level 1, $938 to $3,127 for Level 2, and $28,400 to $140,000 for DC fast, with higher costs for networked stations and for pedestals with one charger as opposed to two chargers.


Installation Cost: installation costs can vary based on factors including the number and type of charging infrastructure, geographic location, site location and required trenching, existing wiring and required electrical upgrades to accommodate existing and future charging needs, labor costs, and permitting. Based on these factors, charger installation costs for residential use vary from $400 to 600 for a Level 1 charger and $680 to $3,300 for a Level 2 charger, with higher costs for installations in apartments. Public and workplace installation costs per charger average around $3,000 for Level 2, with costs varying up to 50% depending on location and number of chargers installed at each site. Similarly, DC fast installation costs can range anywhere from $18,000 to $66,000 depending on charger power and number of installed chargers per site.

And then you have all the Utility fees, permitting, safety

And then you have the ownership : Charging station ownership typically falls into one of two categories: site host-owned or third party-owned (e.g., owned by a charging network). Charging infrastructure owned by the site host is purchased, installed, and maintained by the site host, which allows for full control over the station and the ability to keep all revenue from the station (if applicable). In this scenario, site hosts are responsible for all associated costs, including any maintenance or payment transaction fees. Charging infrastructure owned by a third party is installed and maintained by the third party, which minimizes responsibility to the site host. In some cases, the site host may also earn revenue by leasing the space occupied by the charging infrastructure to the third party.

I feel some people feel its just, install a bunch of chargers, and off to the next charger install. But it all comes down to the property owner, do they actually want cars and people taking up a store parking space while people charge their cars and not purchase anything from inside the store or restaurant, humm!
 
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Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
All of this talk about chargers got me thinking and then in a local online rag, the writer is complaining about the lack of charging stations around the county. Which leads up to my question. Who is responsible for installing charging stations, the city, the county, the business that has the room, the state, the DOT, the Government. We have noted about TESLA and the Govt and other charge companies installing chargers, but what about appt complexes.
Good question!

My first guess would be that private companies like Tesla or Electrify America (EA) make those type of decisions on their own. EA has clearly partnered with Walmart, Sheetz Gas Stations, or large shopping mall management companies (such as Westfield). I have noticed on my recent drive to Winston-Salem, NC that there were EA stations roughly every 120-150 miles. I've not kept an eye out for Tesla stations while on the road, but I have noticed them at large shopping malls and shopping centers, state-run toll road highway rest stops such as on I-95 in Maryland, or the numerous rest stop/gas stations on the New Jersey Turnpike.

I've noticed (on navigation/map software) that many auto dealerships have Level 2 chargers or even a less potent (50 kW) Level 3 Fast DC charger. I haven't tried using any of those. They've probably been installed for dealer use, and they might charge fees for the public to use.

In at least one small town in New York state, it looks like local town govt. has installed a number of publicly available, slower Level 2 chargers around the town, in public parking lots, at the town hall, and at a fire house. Commuter railroad stations and airports have these also. It probably varies widely, state by state, from little or no local authority, to somewhat more planning & oversight.

Where I live, there is an active homeowner association. It installed a pair of Level 2 chargers in the neighborhood, available only to residents. The chargers themselves are on the ChargePoint network, and you pay ChargePoint for using them. This seems similar to chargers I've seen in newer apartments or condos.
I found some cost:
Charger costs for residential use vary from $700 to $900 for a Level 1 charger and $1,400 to $4,100 for a Level 2 charger, with higher costs for apartments, according to the International Council on Clean Transportation’s review of charging infrastructure costs (PDF) across major U.S. metropolitan areas. This review also showed that public and workplace costs per charger range from $596 to $813 for Level 1, $938 to $3,127 for Level 2, and $28,400 to $140,000 for DC fast, with higher costs for networked stations and for pedestals with one charger as opposed to two chargers.
Interesting info, thanks for posting that link. It may be a 4-year old article (April 2019) but the various relative cost comparisons are probably similar at today's prices.
 
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Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Spartan
Good question!

My first guess would be that private companies like Tesla or Electrify America (EA) make those type of decisions on their own. EA has clearly partnered with Walmart, Sheetz Gas Stations, or large shopping mall management companies (such as Westfield). I have noticed on my recent drive to Winston-Salem, NC that there were EA stations roughly every 120-150 miles. I've not kept an eye out for Tesla stations while on the road, but I have noticed them at large shopping malls and shopping centers, state-run toll road highway rest stops such as on I-95 in Maryland, or the numerous rest stop/gas stations on the New Jersey Turnpike.

I've noticed (on navigation/map software) that many auto dealerships have Level 2 chargers or even a less potent (50 kW) Level 3 Fast DC charger. I haven't tried using any of those. They've probably been installed for dealer use, and they might charge fees for the public to use.

In at least one small town in New York state, it looks like local town govt. has installed a number of publicly available, slower Level 2 chargers around the town, in public parking lots, at the town hall, and at a fire house. Commuter railroad stations and airports have these also. It probably varies widely, state by state, from little or no local authority, to somewhat more planning & oversight.

Where I live, there is an active homeowner association. It installed a pair of Level 2 chargers in the neighborhood, available only to residents. The chargers themselves are on the ChargePoint network, and you pay ChargePoint for using them. This seems similar to chargers I've seen in newer apartments or condos.
Interesting info, thanks for posting that link. It may be a 4-year old article (April 2019) but the various relative cost comparisons are probably similar at today's prices.
I wonder how many will become target rich prospects for vandals on unattended vehicles ?
 
cpp

cpp

Audioholic Ninja
Already taken place. Punks stealing
I wonder how many will become target rich prospects for vandals on unattended vehicles ?
not sure, as these batteries in EV cars are pretty darn heavy. like the battery in our Model S ( 100 kwh )weighs in at 1200 lbs.

The Nissan Leaf battery weighs in at 680 lbs.

If some punk is going to take your battery, they will instead take the whole car. I guess, give it time thieves have a way of bringing stupid to the insurance world.
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Spartan
Already taken place. Punks stealing


not sure, as these batteries in EV cars are pretty darn heavy. like the battery in our Model S ( 100 kwh )weighs in at 1200 lbs.

The Nissan Leaf battery weighs in at 680 lbs.

If some punk is going to take your battery, they will instead take the whole car. I guess, give it time thieves have a way of bringing stupid to the insurance world.
understood, I was more or less referring to basic vandalism of the car / charging of it while it would be publicly left unattended. Apartment complex, etc.
 
cpp

cpp

Audioholic Ninja
understood, I was more or less referring to basic vandalism of the car / charging of it while it would be publicly left unattended. Apartment complex, etc.
OH yes that would be a pain and the way the country is going it will be the norm in some communities. If they can't have it, lets just destroy what others have. The degenerate mentality is running rampant.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
I went and looked at the Ioniq 5 and 6 this weekend. As much as I have liked the 5 so far, actually sitting in it I was a little unimpressed. I can't help but feel it feels a bit cheap for the price. The 6, with an extra year of work, is at least nicer inside. I wasn't able to test drive because they were too busy.

My friend with the Subaru shop has a Polestar 2 dual motor w/performance pack and I went and checked it out today at lunch. Much more upscale interior for the price. Trunk is not as big as the Ioniq 5 but is probably big enough for me. Ionic 5N will debut at Goodwood next week.
 

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