Denon New AV Receivers have 4 Features Nobody Else Has!

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alkemomo

Enthusiast
@PENG
I was trying to share links to the dolby white papers on a thread(maybe this one as well). These are more detailed and info more granular than the generic pic you have here. I had them saved as separate tabs on my browser. But now when I select them, it brings me to the generic site that anyone can go to. Dolby.com. What gives? Why can’t we see the white papers anymore? There far more useful imo.
Thanks for your assistance. If you find the missing Dolby threads, please send them on. Perhaps they have been withdrawn as Dolby expects to change things in Dec
 
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alkemomo

Enthusiast
You might want to keep your posts a lot shorter and ask 1 or 2 questions at a time, then move on to a different question.

My HT room is 22' wide x 26' long x 14' high. Yet my system is 5.1.4. So it doesn't matter what others do with their rooms.

Quantity (# speakers) doesn't equal Quality.

Height speakers are usually on walls, Atmos speakers are usually on ceilings.

Now I can't' remember what your questions are. :D

Oh, yeah, for amps, PENG said he preferred Anthem. Someone else would say Monolith or whatever else.

If you want Marantz AVR, I would use the AVR for all the speakers. Then get a Marantz 2Ch or 5Ch amp for the surround speakers.

As for Yamaha, I love Yamaha and that's what I use now. But I doubt they will make a 13CH AVR or pre-pro or Amp. But I don't see the desire for more than 5.1.4 anyway.
You are correct. 11 channels will do it. No need for external amps.
 
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alkemomo

Enthusiast
@alkemomo I think your focus on Height and Wide speakers is severely misplaced. Rather than building towards wider acceptance, developers have been moving away from these as best I can tell.
Perhaps as an upmixer, DTS-X:pro will bring these back, but I wouldn't count on it. Most of the things I've seen show further movement away.

For my money, high quality source material and good wide dispersion speakers are way better of an investment. It doesn't seem that your focus is on Home Theater so much, if at all. SACD and Blu-Ray music recordings are likely the best options, as well as any Hi-Res recordings downloaded direct from specific Orchestras.

Beyond that, again, I go back to speakers. I was fortunate to be turned on to Philharmonic Audio before Dennis retired from active Speaker Production. His work still lives on through Salk Sound, as he is the primary designer for the Crossover and voicing work.
Dennis is a strong proponent of wide dispersion because it makes acoustic performances sound more real. Dennis is a professional Violist, and as a trained performing musician myself, I am in absolute agreement. Moreover, I feel that all music I have listened to in the time I have owned his speakers has been elevated to levels I would not have expected.
Properly set up for simple stereo listening, I find a wide and immersive soundstage. Acoustic performances, especially, are brought back to life for me in a way that makes me feel like I am among the musicians again. (Yes, this is a trite concept, but the point remains... properly setting up your speakers is one of the most important aspects! I don't close my eyes and see Wayne Shorter or Keith Jarret in front of me, rather I feel like I am present at the recording of the event. I hope you understand and appreciate that distinction.)
Along with Wide Dispersion, the other trademark is a flat and accurate Frequency Response. Compared to speakers with elevated bass or treble, or a depressed mid-range response, good speakers should not color the reproduction of the sound they are meant to reproduce.
This has been my little piece of audio bliss. I have the utmost respect for some of the designers that are making their speakers this way. Obviously, Jim Salk is first on my list. Another is Ascend Acoustics: Dave F is a very well respected and talented speaker designer whose gear seems to win almost universal praise. I have also been fortunate to meet Rick Craig from Selah Audio and hear one of his designs (to say I was impressed would be an understatement).
At the end of the day, one can find good speakers in many places, and at many costs. Some are available on the open retail market from Manufacturers like Monitor Audio or KEF... just to name two, or from private boutique Internet Direct companies like the three I mentioned earlier.

It is not my intention to talk you into spending Tens of Thousands of dollars on new gear. Quite the opposite. Certainly, custom made speakers with stunningly dyed rare wood veneer are always a nice fantasy, but no matter the quality of the speaker, an improper set up will render it completely impotent to do what it is capable of doing. Conversely, even mediocre speakers can be enhanced through proper care in setting up ones room.
Yes there is a point where even a mediocre speaker will fail to deliver, but it is in the acoustic interaction between speaker and room that most of the magic resides.
Chasing electronics as a fix is akin to chasing the dragon... no matter the dosage, you will never have that same effect again!

I can only speak for myself when I say that these new AVRs and Processors are very intriguing. Yes, I want something that will meet my specific interests in setting up the speaker arrangement that will work best in my room. Yes, I want something that will allow me to pick and choose which Amps are utilized without an all or nothing switch. Moreover, as a gamer, I want something that will work well over the next generation of console to deliver a top quality AV experience.
But until the right one comes along that meets those needs, I know my Marantz SR6012 is a very good machine. I am quite happy with it's performance, even where it might be limited by some marginal facet that is likely inaudible anyway!
I suspect the same to be true with your SR8012, too!

Best,
R
R, thanks for your valuable insights and suggestions. I'm going to pursue many of your ideas. The Philharmonic Audio speakers appear impressive in terms of price and performance. Too bad production has halted. I have six months to weigh my options. Wish me luck. Thanks.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Warlord
Thanks for your assistance. If you find the missing Dolby threads, please send them on. Perhaps they have been withdrawn as Dolby expects to change things in Dec
Certainly! I posed the same question elsewhere, and hopefully I can get an answer. I have found the “Dolby information” site to be just too useless, and has confused many enthusiasts.
 
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Skylarlove1999

Audioholic Intern
Not me, your new BFF did!

That was a reply to me that started the whole cult talk to begin with, and I don't even have an account over there nor do I ever visit. If that makes me a "cult member" what does it make someone with an account who posted all through the thread in question??

In fact I just now looked at the thread everyone is up in arms over and... wow. I just can't understand why they would ban such a fine upstanding person as your new friend, lol.
I will admit I wasn't on my best behavior at first. I did sincerely apologize. My acting liking an ass doesn't excuse Amir for crapping all over Denon without even bothering to reach out. He only reached out after the fact. And his comments about Gene, I mean come on. That was super sleazy. Then near the end of the thread he tries pretending like he is the hero and all his cult members kiss his butt. If you start the fire and then put the fire out that doesn't make you a fireman it makes you an arsonist. Then he says his bad back prevented him from hooking the 4700 back up for additional testing and to actually use it for its purpose of home entertainment. He is a millionaire many times over and he takes donations for his site? He should be doing the donating. I could tell you more but I would probably get sued so I will leave it there. Think Tony Stark but without the charisma, charm or good looks. LOL. But it is definitely a cult mentality. Believe Amir is the all knowing one in all things audio . Give me a break. He was a Microsoft executive. Name me all of their amazing audio products. LOL.
 
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Skylarlove1999

Audioholic Intern
Thank you for reminding me of this feature.. never use it... actually this is the first time on any forum.... I visit avsforum, audiosciencereview, and audioholics. I enjoy all of them for different reasons. However desperate times... I now have exactly 1 member on my ignore list here and avsforum...After providing a ton of leeway banned at ASR as well.
Glad I could help you discover the ignore feature LOL
 
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Skylarlove1999

Audioholic Intern
Thank you for reminding me of this feature.. never use it... actually this is the first time on any forum.... I visit avsforum, audiosciencereview, and audioholics. I enjoy all of them for different reasons. However desperate times... I now have exactly 1 member on my ignore list here and avsforum...After providing a ton of leeway banned at ASR as well.
You and John Galt are absolutely cult members. LOL.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/denon-avr-x4700h-2020-avr-review.14188/page-31#post-438656

Amir says he isn't in the olive branch business and you guys line up to congratulate him for being a complete douchebag. Great people, like Gene, can go over the merits and drawbacks of a product without coming off as an egotistical maniac who isn't interested in working with companies to improve their products. What exactly did Amir do for you that he gets a pass for being an ignorant human being? Please tell me. I can't sleep tonight without knowing. LOL.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
@PENG
I was trying to share links to the dolby white papers on a thread(maybe this one as well). These are more detailed and info more granular than the generic pic you have here. I had them saved as separate tabs on my browser. But now when I select them, it brings me to the generic site that anyone can go to. Dolby.com. What gives? Why can’t we see the white papers anymore? There far more useful imo.
It is not unusual for them to remove such white paper a few years after launch, knowing that they would be hosted by other 3 rd party sites.

I actually downloaded all the white papers I could find at the time but for download links, below are the only ones I could find.

Only the first one is for home theaters.

 
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Skylarlove1999

Audioholic Intern
Amir M. Said

Since someone just brought this up, I am not in olive branch business. The review is already quite helpful to manufacturers, providing data and measurements that they probably did not have. Post review, I am more than willing to help explain things, run more tests, review other samples, etc. as I have done countless times. But that doesn't mean I write the review to cater to the needs of the manufacturer. Or make them feel good despite poor performance of the device otherwise.

The review itself is as a service to the membership. I test what they send to me and report it for others to also read. My obligation is to the membership and owner of the device. It is not to manufacturers.

People who get loaners as a way of getting all test products are in a different boat and constraints. They are not as free as I can be with my testing and language I use. If people don't like what I do, there are plenty of other reviewers who cater to manufacturers in the way you suggest.

How could you not read this statement and see what a pompous self interested windbag this goof is? And his cult members can't hit the like button fast enough and tell him how amazing he is. That is how cults are. Ignore all the bad, believe every word the leader says and never question him. I imagine them all in robes with hoods chanting Amir's name until he descends from the heavens to provide his latest review like he is Moses delivering the commandments. His site "moderator" posted the Lady Marmalade video from Moulin Rouge as a response to Amir's post. No comments just the video. I mean what does that even mean? LOL. It is so cringy over there they make Scientology look normal. LOL.
 
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Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Warlord
I will admit I wasn't on my best behavior at first. I did sincerely apologize. My acting liking an ass doesn't excuse Amir for crapping all over Denon without even bothering to reach out. He only reached out after the fact. And his comments about Gene, I mean come on. That was super sleazy. Then near the end of the thread he tries pretending like he is the hero and all his cult members kiss his butt. If you start the fire and then put the fire out that doesn't make you a fireman it makes you an arsonist. Then he says his bad back prevented him from hooking the 4700 back up for additional testing and to actually use it for its purpose of home entertainment. He is a millionaire many times over and he takes donations for his site? He should be doing the donating. I could tell you more but I would probably get sued so I will leave it there. Think Tony Stark but without the charisma, charm or good looks. LOL. But it is definitely a cult mentality. Believe Amir is the all knowing one in all things audio . Give me a break. He was a Microsoft executive. Name me all of their amazing audio products. LOL.
So since your diplomacy made you so many friends over there you thought repeating the same behavior here would... yield the same great results? I've been to that site maybe a couple of times to look at some charts and you immediately labeled me a "cult member" for questioning your agenda. Which really did made me chuckle, btw...

Then you quoted me again and insulted me for that also.

Nice to meet you too.
 
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Skylarlove1999

Audioholic Intern
So since your diplomacy made you so many friends over there you thought repeating the same behavior here would... yield the same great results? I've been to that site maybe a couple of times to look at some charts and you immediately labeled me a "cult member" for questioning your agenda. Which really did made me chuckle, btw...

Then you quoted me again and insulted me for that also.

Nice to meet you too.
So I didn't say a word to you until you said this to me:

What is your deal? You got some heat with Amir? He's allowed to disagree with gene. That doesn't make them "enemies". I don't see anything that couldn't be discussed over a beer and settled quickly. You're just trying to stir up shit for some reason.

Now you are trying to play the victim? That seems a bit strange considering this is how you introduced yourself. You were overtly hostile and aggressive. You claim not to have even been over and read Amir's thread about the Denon 4700 but you had such an over the top response. You tell me how I was supposed to react. Was I supposed to say thanks for saying " What's your deal?" and accusing me of trying to stir things up. So if I had quoted a post you made and sent this exact reply you would have treated me cordially?

Come on be real. You would not have. I wouldn't have expected you too. So now you are trying to portray me as the instigator with you. You chose to instigate with me and antagonize me with your response to my post. I call things like I see them. Sometimes I am wrong and I apologize. Maybe ask Gene if he was wants to have a beer with Amir. I can tell you he isn't interested in making friends with a megalomaniac who accused him of being a shill for Denon.

By all means keep on defending Amir. Say you aren't part of his cult, on Gene's website. But it seems rather odd you got so fired up at me for defending Gene's integrity and reputation on this site. Now if you are offended by my calling you a cult member I can say I am sorry. And mean it.

Maybe you were just annoyed by having to read about Amir over here because you just wanted discussion about the Denon 2020 lineup and my posts interrupted that and pissed you off. I can respect feeling that way. Maybe then you approach things differently when you respond. I can tell you I wouldn't have been so aggressive back if you had cordially asked me to start a new thread about Amir's character assasination of Gene.

It is probably what I should have done but frankly I was hoping some of the forum members here would be as pissed as I was about Amir's comments about Gene. I can't fathom why you aren't. And why you are more angry with me . I am sorry I derailed this thread but I thought it was appropriate given this is the 2020 Denon thread started by Gene.
 
R

roadwarrior

Audioholic
Amir wrote on 1 post:

“It is not the first time Gene has said that about my testing. It is disappointing.
Funny thing is Amir has said this exact same thing to me about Gene's testing. Guess he forgot about that before I blocked him.

While he has an Audio Precision analyzer, it is a multichannel one built to lower performance. So he can't accurately replicate my test results.
That's because Gene wants to test ACD in receivers. Oddly enough when Amir was at a training program for the AP analyzer he struggled to grasp some of the things they were trying to teach in that class. He's had similar problems figuring out the MiniDSP HD as well. Performance standards are not just for the testing equipment.

He also hardly does any testing other than power and an FFT here and there.
Testing receiver DAC's against phone dongles and using words like sad all the time to describe lesser performers doesn't trump peer reviewed articles and a completely open process as to AH's testing methods IMHO. You can literally watch Gene on video showing what he does testing amps and pre pros and how ho does it.

Finally, he does have much lower standards than me. He considers a 90 dB SINAD great and that is that. His standards are the reason these products don't perform any better. Had he tested state-of-the-art audio products with a better analyzer, he would have a different outlook on great engineering.
Gene's "lowered standards" literally pushed one AV make into totally revamping its line and offering a series aimed at higher sound and build standards assembled on a dedicated production line and more recently cajoled Denon into offering a full pre amp disconnect mode which they did on all models within about a year of his asking for such a feature.

Anyway, let's hope Denon is not pushing him to get some counter PR for him instead of working with us to sort through this.”
Pushing Gene doesn't seem to ever go very far. Think Denon knows that by now after decades of dealing with him. This is all just getting a bit silly. Gene has been testing and notifying AV manufacturers about issues with their gear for over 20 years. Difference is Gene has turned AH into a fully formed business and business's need revenue to pay employees to test and review gear and publish articles, travel to trade shows, interview manufacturers etc... and when you aren't selling actual products you need ad revenue to pay the bills. If a forum sponsor like RBH built an inferior speaker and tried to get Gene to measure it in a favorable manner I have no doubt what the response would be and several expletives would have to be edited out of the transcripts for the family hour for sure. Having relationships with manufacturers doesn't automatically make you a shill anymore than not having relationships makes you a truth teller. It's your personal integrity that determines how you act and if I remember right Gene's integrity got him banned from a recent trade show for not going along with the Koolaid crowd holding the event. What a shill !
 
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Trebdp83

Audioholic General
Come on guys, I don’t think Gene needs the assist. Have you seen those guns? I’ll bet he’s as proud of those things as I am with my dongle.:cool:
 
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Skylarlove1999

Audioholic Intern
Funny thing is Amir has said this exact same thing to me about Gene's testing. Guess he forgot about that before I blocked him.



That's because Gene wants to test ACD in receivers. Oddly enough when Amir was at a training program for the AP analyzer he struggled to grasp some of the things they were trying to teach in that class. He's had similar problems figuring out the MiniDSP HD as well. Performance standards are not just for the testing equipment.



Testing receiver DAC's against phone dongles and using words like sad all the time to describe lesser performers doesn't trump peer reviewed articles and a completely open process as to AH's testing methods IMHO. You can literally watch Gene on video showing what he does testing amps and pre pros and how ho does it.



Gene's "lowered standards" literally pushed one AV make into totally revamping its line and offering a series aimed at higher sound and build standards assembled on a dedicated production line and more recently cajoled Denon into offering a full pre amp disconnect mode which they did on all models within about a year of his asking for such a mode.



Pushing Gene doesn't seem to ever go very far. Think Denon knows that by now after decades of dealing with him. This is all just getting a bit silly. Gene has been testing and notifying AV manufacturers about issues with their gear for over 20 years. Difference is Gene has turned AH into a fully formed business and business's need revenue to pay employees to test and review gear and publish articles, travel to trade shows, interview manufacturers etc... and when you aren't selling actual products you need ad revenue to pay the bills. If a forum sponsor like RBH built an inferior speaker and tried to get Gene to measure it in a favorable manner I have no doubt what the response would be and it several expletives would have to be edited out for the family hour for sure. Having relationships with manufacturers doesn't automatically make you a shill anymore than not having relationships makes you a truth teller. It's your personal integrity that determines how you act and if I remember right Gene's integrity got him banned from a recent trade show for not going along with the Koolaid crowd holding the event. What a shill !
You literally made my day. Thanks so much for this post.
 
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Skylarlove1999

Audioholic Intern
Come on guys, I don’t think Gene needs the assist. Have you seen those guns? I’ll bet he’s as proud of those things as I am with my dongle.:cool:
Gene certainly doesn't need any help. Everyone should be proud of their dongle. LOL.
 
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Skylarlove1999

Audioholic Intern
So since your diplomacy made you so many friends over there you thought repeating the same behavior here would... yield the same great results? I've been to that site maybe a couple of times to look at some charts and you immediately labeled me a "cult member" for questioning your agenda. Which really did made me chuckle, btw...

Then you quoted me again and insulted me for that also.

Nice to meet you too.
@John Galt gave you a like. But he has me on ignore. LOL. He is very active on ASR and is a donor to that site. But he isn't a cult member. LOL.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Warlord
Come on guys, I don’t think Gene needs the assist. Have you seen those guns? I’ll bet he’s as proud of those things as I am with my dongle.:cool:
I’d like to see gene knock Amir’s a55 out. Then go Incredible Hulk and body slam each of his cheerleading dipshits one at a time. He wishes he was Gene! Maybe he should quit measuring HIS dongle...
 
R

roadwarrior

Audioholic
You literally made my day. Thanks so much for this post.
I do think it's a good thing that someone else is putting some skin in the game regarding testing gear with precision tools like AP analyzers. I don't however understand this fascination with DAC performance and its comparison to devices that are basically the DAC itself with a USB port and some plastic. They should measure better because there's less in the signal path. I'm of the mind that DAC's are for the most part irrelevant to sound quality if built to a decent standard but I get that Amir isn't testing for sound quality. I do think Denon should have to answer for some of these tests results on the X4700 and I firmly believe they will. I would also like to see more of their newest 2 channel gear being tested as well by both AH and ASR.

Information is power but good information is hard to come by. I also don't believe the X3600 tests were any more a fluke than the X4700's but people passing on the value that the 4000 series offers over some distortion and noise floor measurements valued by a design engineer miss out on more than just that part of a receivers performance metrics. I don't listen to test tones in an anechoic chamber and the noise floor in my room is like 46dB or more on any given day of the week depending on if the ceiling fan is on or not. Golden ears limited to about 12KHZ or so at 53 and that's not half bad based on the age group data I've read regarding hearing. This is without a lifetime of going to live concerts or working in a high decibel environment. Just age and natural hearing loss over time. We all have it. Just most don't want to admit to it.
 

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