Denon New AV Receivers have 4 Features Nobody Else Has!

Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Warlord
That's cute @Pogre . I figured you wouldn't reply. It's okay.
I have this rule (which I'm breaking right now) about wrassling with turds. There's never a "winner". You just end up covered in crap.

I read plenty of your replies over at asr yesterday. Well, at least the ones that got quoted since you deleted a bunch out of shame... I'm good. I don't need to engage with you. I already saw enough.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Spartan
It is not unusual for them to remove such white paper a few years after launch, knowing that they would be hosted by other 3 rd party sites.

I actually downloaded all the white papers I could find at the time but for download links, below are the only ones I could find.

Only the first one is for home theaters.

@PENG
Thanks for this. Only the first link works for me.
However!!! On Dolby’s site, if you go into the professional area, and scroll down most of what I was look for is there.

I like that these illustrate that there’s a range of placement options, and how to calculate them. Instead of the graphics available right on the front page that make it seem like those placements are etched in stone and many people feel like Atmos won’t work if they waiver from those locations even a little bit.
 
S

Skylarlove1999

Audioholic Intern
I have this rule (which I'm breaking right now) about wrassling with turds. There's never a "winner". You just end up covered in crap.

I read plenty of your replies over at asr yesterday. Well, at least the ones that got quoted since you deleted a bunch out of shame... I'm good. I don't need to engage with you. I already saw enough.
I get it. You attacked me. You think you are some type of bigshot on here. So I was supposed to just sit down and be quiet. You can't come with an intelligent rebuttal so now you are resorting to name calling. Does that about cover it?
 
Timforhifi

Timforhifi

Audioholic
It’s funny how people are excited about preamp mode.
Pioneer elite has been doing this since 2011 but they implement it way better. You can choose fronts, fronts and center or all channels in pre amp mode. In 2016 onkyo and integra both offer this feature and it works great. Since the merger they’ve become an outstanding choice.

I have a denon 6700 on the way to test against my onkyo rz920. I use a 7ch nad t977 power amp with an interesting speaker configuration. 3 canton vento up front, 6 canton in ceiling and 2 canton 8” in wall for surrounds. It’s a 5.2.6 setup so I’m looking forward to using the 6 Atmos speakers as intended. Right now my top rear and top middle play together and it does sound great.
 
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John Galt

John Galt

Junior Audioholic
It’s funny how people are excited about preamp mode.
Pioneer elite has been doing this since 2011 but they implement it way better. You can choose fronts, fronts and center or all channels in pre amp mode. In 2016 onkyo and integra both offer this feature and it works great. Since the merger they’ve began an outstanding choice.

I have a denon 6700 on the way to test against my onkyo rz920. I use a 7ch nad t977 power amp with an interesting speaker configuration. 3 canton vento up front, 6 canton in ceiling and 2 canton 8” in wall for surrounds. It’s a 5.2.6 setup so I’m looking forward to using the 6 Atmos speakers as intended. Right now my top rear and top middle play together and it does sound great.
Interesting. How do they objectively measure? Dual sub bass management?
 
Timforhifi

Timforhifi

Audioholic
Independent dual sub control yes but I couldn’t tell you how this rz920 measures. I do know that the similar integra drx7 was measured and pre amp was extremely good for modern avrs. Something like 4-4.5v on pre out before any distortion or clipping. I think gene tested that on his integra gear as well. Said the preamp stage is excellent.
 
Gmoney

Gmoney

Audioholic Samurai
Your limited knowledge and experience??? LOL. I would hate to see your response after you have more experience and knowledge. LOL. Thanks for being so thorough in helping this retired professor. Very kind of you.
OP has gotten some great advice, Have you read the postups between PENG and Bruno? Check them out, like having a Front row seat in a classroom of meeting of the minds. Gene and PENG have had some really good Conversations between the two. If your lucky to run across those Conversations as they are happening you won't be Disappointed.
 
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Gmoney

Gmoney

Audioholic Samurai
Because........some cult leader said that a dongle has better numbers? :D
Funny thing is Amir has said this exact same thing to me about Gene's testing. Guess he forgot about that before I blocked him.



That's because Gene wants to test ACD in receivers. Oddly enough when Amir was at a training program for the AP analyzer he struggled to grasp some of the things they were trying to teach in that class. He's had similar problems figuring out the MiniDSP HD as well. Performance standards are not just for the testing equipment.



Testing receiver DAC's against phone dongles and using words like sad all the time to describe lesser performers doesn't trump peer reviewed articles and a completely open process as to AH's testing methods IMHO. You can literally watch Gene on video showing what he does testing amps and pre pros and how ho does it.



Gene's "lowered standards" literally pushed one AV make into totally revamping its line and offering a series aimed at higher sound and build standards assembled on a dedicated production line and more recently cajoled Denon into offering a full pre amp disconnect mode which they did on all models within about a year of his asking for such a feature.



Pushing Gene doesn't seem to ever go very far. Think Denon knows that by now after decades of dealing with him. This is all just getting a bit silly. Gene has been testing and notifying AV manufacturers about issues with their gear for over 20 years. Difference is Gene has turned AH into a fully formed business and business's need revenue to pay employees to test and review gear and publish articles, travel to trade shows, interview manufacturers etc... and when you aren't selling actual products you need ad revenue to pay the bills. If a forum sponsor like RBH built an inferior speaker and tried to get Gene to measure it in a favorable manner I have no doubt what the response would be and several expletives would have to be edited out of the transcripts for the family hour for sure. Having relationships with manufacturers doesn't automatically make you a shill anymore than not having relationships makes you a truth teller. It's your personal integrity that determines how you act and if I remember right Gene's integrity got him banned from a recent trade show for not going along with the Koolaid crowd holding the event. What a shill !
Gene, got banned? Where! what show! All us AH members need to go Peacefully protest. :mad: Seems like Gene is the lone "House of Truth in Audio"
Hence the acronyms AH. Gene will Not Compromise his integrity, Not when his name is on his Editorial or test Results. In the Audio World of Media Mongols the one's Fighting him or not allowing Gene in only shows Buyer beware of what Gene stands for his Pursuit in finding truth in audio.
 
R

roadwarrior

Audioholic
Gene, got banned? Where! what show! All us AH members need to go Peacefully protest. :mad: Seems like Gene is the lone "House of Truth in Audio"
Hence the acronyms AH. Gene will Not Compromise his integrity, Not when his name is on his Editorial or test Results. In the Audio World of Media Mongols the one's Fighting him or not allowing Gene in only shows Buyer beware of what Gene stands for his Pursuit in finding truth in audio.
I think a show in Florida. He talked about it in one of his videos recently but I forgot which one.
 
Gmoney

Gmoney

Audioholic Samurai
It’s funny how people are excited about preamp mode.
Pioneer elite has been doing this since 2011 but they implement it way better. You can choose fronts, fronts and center or all channels in pre amp mode. In 2016 onkyo and integra both offer this feature and it works great. Since the merger they’ve become an outstanding choice.

I have a denon 6700 on the way to test against my onkyo rz920. I use a 7ch nad t977 power amp with an interesting speaker configuration. 3 canton vento up front, 6 canton in ceiling and 2 canton 8” in wall for surrounds. It’s a 5.2.6 setup so I’m looking forward to using the 6 Atmos speakers as intended. Right now my top rear and top middle play together and it does sound great.
How are you liking your RZ920? Onkyo has a way of putting out some nice AVR,s was it the 900 that had a nice power supply? I believe it was that model. Small Individual amp boards. Power supply was up front Flanked by two more smaller power supplies. I had my eye on that 900. Can't remember if it had Atmos? don't think it did. Scratch the last sentence I just went to check it out it is Atmos. Still a sweet AVR
 
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Auditor55

Auditor55

Audioholic Chief
I will admit I wasn't on my best behavior at first. I did sincerely apologize. My acting liking an ass doesn't excuse Amir for crapping all over Denon without even bothering to reach out. He only reached out after the fact. And his comments about Gene, I mean come on. That was super sleazy. Then near the end of the thread he tries pretending like he is the hero and all his cult members kiss his butt. If you start the fire and then put the fire out that doesn't make you a fireman it makes you an arsonist. Then he says his bad back prevented him from hooking the 4700 back up for additional testing and to actually use it for its purpose of home entertainment. He is a millionaire many times over and he takes donations for his site? He should be doing the donating. I could tell you more but I would probably get sued so I will leave it there. Think Tony Stark but without the charisma, charm or good looks. LOL. But it is definitely a cult mentality. Believe Amir is the all knowing one in all things audio . Give me a break. He was a Microsoft executive. Name me all of their amazing audio products. LOL.
Denon might step it up as result of the 4700 being completely ripped apart by Amir. I wouldn't buy it just because it has 8K on it.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I understand the sentiments regarding the "Dongle" thing, but if we can set aside the rhetoric, hyperbole here are some facts about the ASR reviews/measurements on AVPs and AVRs, network streamer with amps, based on the site's pink panther award and whether the device made to the recommended list:

Denon: ..................3 tested, 2 recommended
Marantz: ...............3 tested, 2 recommended
Yamaha: ...............3 tested, 2 recommended
Anthem: ................2 tested, 1 recommended
Arcam: ..................3 tested, none recommended
NAD: ......................3 tested, 1 recommended, 1 got the panther but did not make it to the recommended list
Pioneer:................. 4 tested, 1 got the panther, but did not make it to the recommended list

I am not putting any weight on the meaning of the pink panther award and their recommended list, but we can see that Sound United's D+M products actually did well relative to the other brands reviewed.

If it wasn't the X4700H's apparent poor results in the HDMI input 32 tones test and the not too good linearity test (unless we hear back from Denon/or AH on whatever they are doing on their own that may explain, or show something different), Denon would have scored 3 out of 3.

Edit: Yamaha....actually 3 reviewed (I forgot the 2ch receiver), 2 recommended.
 
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RichB

RichB

Audioholic Field Marshall
I don't think one can hear the difference between 0.1% and 0.02% pre amp output. Human ears/brains and most speakers in room with noise floor at 20 dB or higher will not allow discernment to be that good, especially when watching movies. We all want great measurements for other reasons. Lots of people own 200, 400, 1 kW amps when they only need 50 w, almost the same idea.
0 dB SPL is defined as the threshold of human hearing in the area that we are most sensitive.
It is not difficult to observe that bass sounds travel better room than the high-frequencies.
This is true of ambient noise. To understand the impact of the noise floor you must analyze the spectrum.
There are rooms with 40 dB ambient noise but 10 dB at 2 to 6 kHz where it matters most.

Anything above 0 SPL in the 2 to 6 kHz regions is possibly audible but not likely.
Distortions are also going to have the same issue. They may not be masked and within the most sensitive frequencies.
I would stay below 20 dB distortion is a max for critical users. That is SINAD of 70 dB or 0.03 THD+N from .1 to 1 watt as the max.
It is important to recognize that the distortion measurements are at 1 kHz so not indicative of the entire frequency range and intermodulation distortion is not present.

Next, you have to examine the speakers sensitivity. The higher the sensitivity the great the chance for audibility since many amps distortion numbers are at or near maximum output.

So that's just noise and distortion, next there needs to be an assessment of linearity into load.
We know a great deal about amplifier performance at 1khz signals into 8 and 4 Ohms.
Sometimes, 20 to 20kHz but even then bandwidth of the measurement can matter because some systems are sensitive to distortions above 20 kHz and can modulate that back into the audible range.

Basically, the numbers thrown around are rules of thumb only, but that does not necessarily make them invalid.

- Rich
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
0 dB SPL is defined as the threshold of human hearing in the area that we are most sensitive.
It is not difficult to observe that bass sounds travel better room than the high-frequencies.
This is true of ambient noise. To understand the impact of the noise floor you must analyze the spectrum.
There are rooms with 40 dB ambient noise but 10 dB at 2 to 6 kHz where it matters most.

Anything above 0 SPL in the 2 to 6 kHz regions is possibly audible but not likely.
Distortions are also going to have the same issue. They may not be masked and within the most sensitive frequencies.
I would stay below 20 dB distortion is a max for critical users. That is SINAD of 70 dB or 0.03 THD+N from .1 to 1 watt as the max.
It is important to recognize that the distortion measurements are at 1 kHz so not indicative of the entire frequency range and intermodulation distortion is not present.

Next, you have to examine the speakers sensitivity. The higher the sensitivity the great the chance for audibility since many amps distortion numbers are at or near maximum output.

So that's just noise and distortion, next there needs to be an assessment of linearity into load.
We know a great deal about amplifier performance at 1khz signals into 8 and 4 Ohms.
Sometimes, 20 to 20kHz but even then bandwidth of the measurement can matter because some systems are sensitive to distortions above 20 kHz and can modulate that back into the audible range.

Basically, the numbers thrown around are rules of thumb only, but that does not necessarily make them invalid.

- Rich
I think you told me that before, I guess I should really do some research on my own on this topic and will think harder about the points you highlighted in this post. The good thing is, say you are 100% correct, I still have no worry because I don't own any gear that couldn't do better than 0.01% at their rated output and I can't stand any louder than 80 dB average sitting 11 ft from my speakers in any of my rooms.:D:D
Guy
It really isn't hard to get gear that can do <0.01% THD+N, 20-20,000 Hz, same for IMD, at rated output as well as at below 100 mW, 8 or 4 ohms.
 
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M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
It’s funny how people are excited about preamp mode.
Pioneer elite has been doing this since 2011 but they implement it way better. You can choose fronts, fronts and center or all channels in pre amp mode. In 2016 onkyo and integra both offer this feature and it works great. Since the merger they’ve become an outstanding choice.

I have a denon 6700 on the way to test against my onkyo rz920. I use a 7ch nad t977 power amp with an interesting speaker configuration. 3 canton vento up front, 6 canton in ceiling and 2 canton 8” in wall for surrounds. It’s a 5.2.6 setup so I’m looking forward to using the 6 Atmos speakers as intended. Right now my top rear and top middle play together and it does sound great.
Many of the hyped Denon features are just marketing fluff..
EQ/Surround mode configurations for each source input was done by HK 15 years ago..
EQ/Surround mode presets were also done by HK 15 years ago..
Even the dual independent subwoofer settings were been done previously by HK...

But then again many of the Denon product development staff are ex-Harman alumni.. :)

Just my $0.02... ;)
 
Gmoney

Gmoney

Audioholic Samurai
Many of the hyped Denon features are just marketing fluff..
EQ/Surround mode configurations for each source input was done by HK 15 years ago..
EQ/Surround mode presets were also done by HK 15 years ago..
Even the dual independent subwoofer settings were been done previously by HK...

But then again many of the Denon product development staff are ex-Harman alumni.. :)

Just my $0.02... ;)
Thanks for that info, good to know.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
0 dB SPL is defined as the threshold of human hearing in the area that we are most sensitive.
It is not difficult to observe that bass sounds travel better room than the high-frequencies.
This is true of ambient noise. To understand the impact of the noise floor you must analyze the spectrum.
There are rooms with 40 dB ambient noise but 10 dB at 2 to 6 kHz where it matters most.
The best I could do on my own is to use my Umik-1 mic, that I am sure hears better than me.:D With HVAC off, here's what I have managed:

I highly doubt anyone in my room can hear any sort of harmonics at levels below -70 dB from 11 feet regardless of the frequency range, but I think it is a good idea to stick to gear that can do -75 or even -80 dB THD+N. Unfortunately that would rule out a lot of AVR, integrated amps and many separates, based on measurements I have seen.

That's just me, being a crazy audioholics. Practically speaking, I firmly believe for videos and even many music genres, -65 dB would probably be enough to guarantee most people will fail in DBT sessions for amp A vs amp B. Now, obviously I can hear distortions from my speakers as those are above the noise floor for sure.

This is only in terms of THD+N and noise floor, obviously there are many other factors.

By the way, I am sure you have read it, but for those interested, AH seems to have never failed to have a good article on just about everything we need. Here's one on human hearing sensitivity:


and below are the noise floor, 1/48 smoothing and no smoothing, for my HT room:

1593349067740.png


1593349097958.png
 

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