Denon New AV Receivers have 4 Features Nobody Else Has!

Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Warlord
The best I could do on my own is to use my Umik-1 mic, that I am sure hears better than me.:D With HVAC off, here's what I have managed:

I highly doubt anyone in my room can hear any sort of harmonics at levels below -70 dB from 11 feet regardless of the frequency range, but I think it is a good idea to stick to gear that can do -75 or even -80 dB THD+N. Unfortunately that would rule out a lot of AVR, integrated amps and many separates, based on measurements I have seen.

That's just me, being a crazy audioholics. Practically speaking, I firmly believe for videos and even many music genres, -65 dB would probably be enough to guarantee most people will fail in DBT sessions for amp A vs amp B. Now, obviously I can hear distortions from my speakers as those are above the noise floor for sure.

This is only in terms of THD+N and noise floor, obviously there are many other factors.

By the way, I am sure you have read it, but for those interested, AH seems to have never failed to have a good article on just about everything we need. Here's one on human hearing sensitivity:


and below are the noise floor, 1/48 smoothing and no smoothing, for my HT room:

View attachment 37632

View attachment 37633
I can get it that quiet in my room too, when the hvac isn't running, but that's not very often this time of the year. Even just the fridge kicking on adds noise. With the hvac on I'm at about 40 - 45 dB.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I can get it that quiet in my room too, when the hvac isn't running, but that's not very often this time of the year. Even just the fridge kicking on adds noise. With the hvac on I'm at about 40 - 45 dB.
That's one reason why I think in the real world, 65 dB SINAD is quite adequate. Also, most loudspeakers have distortions way worse, further clouding the whole audibility thing in DBTs but that's not an excuse for amps to add any distortions of their own.
 
VMPS-TIII

VMPS-TIII

Audioholic Chief
My basement measures 36.3db. That's with no one talking and AC off.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
With HVAC off.......
HVAC off ? Not gonna happen during the summer for most of us. :D

It ridiculous how some people talk about 0.1% audible distortion and their University of Google hypotheses and totally ignore basic life essentials like HVAC noise, refrigerator noise, people noise, and other noises and distortions (speakers, room acoustics, etc,) on top of 90dB+ noise from the movies.
 
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Trebdp83

Audioholic Chief
Add a bowl of chili before a music listening session and forget about it. :oops:
 
RichB

RichB

Audioholic Field Marshall
I think you told me that before, I guess I should really do some research on my own on this topic and will think harder about the points you highlighted in this post. The good thing is, say you are 100% correct, I still have no worry because I don't own any gear that couldn't do better than 0.01% at their rated output and I can't stand any louder than 80 dB average sitting 11 ft from my speakers in any of my rooms.:D:D
Guy
It really isn't hard to get gear that can do <0.01% THD+N, 20-20,000 Hz, same for IMD, at rated output as well as at below 100 mW, 8 or 4 ohms.
I think you will be hard pressed to find amplifiers showing measurements at 100 mW that measure 0.01 or -80 dB SINAD.
But if you do, that will be single tone. Measurements provided manufacturers will be Pure Direct analog in and out, unless otherwise specified.
Not the HDMI signal path and not with complex signals, and we can see, that there is usual some impact on SINAD.

This is simply not the goals of many products. The science tells us that these products are not transparent.
I skew toward headroom, I'd like to see products approaching 100 dB SINAD for my main system allowing for 20 dB of attenuation for DSP processing (bass management and REQ/PEQ).

Then there are other products that are similarly spec'ed like the ATI AT4000 and ATI AT522NC which I had no trouble identifying in a SBT (voltage level matched). The specified THD 0.03 or -70 dB SINAD. So for me, there are differences that sweep or single tone measurements suggest should be inaudible.

I used to think power amplifiers were difficult to make low distortion. It has become apparent that source components require greater scrutiny.

- Rich
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I think you will be hard pressed to find amplifiers showing measurements at 100 mW that measure 0.01 or -80 dB SINAD.
But if you do, that will be single tone. Measurements provided manufacturers will be Pure Direct analog in and out, unless otherwise specified.
I bet you are right, so let me increase it to 0.05%, that is -66 dB at the 100 mW level, that way even the RX-A1080 can pass. The Denons would past 0.02%

And you are also right it would be single tone, as I have never seen any 32 tones test done at such low output level. Keep in mind at 100 mW, the volume would be in the neighborhood of -30 (in my HT room for eample), for a Denon AVR such as the X3600H.

My vol is normally at -20 most of the time and -15 occasionally. At such levels, -66 dB will definitely be inaudible in my HT room regardless of frequency.
 
CajunLB

CajunLB

Full Audioholic
I bet you are right, so let me increase it to 0.05%, that is -66 dB at the 100 mW level, that way even the RX-A1080 can pass. The Denons would past 0.02%

And you are also right it would be single tone, as I have never seen any 32 tones test done at such low output level. Keep in mind at 100 mW, the volume would be in the neighborhood of -30 (in my HT room for eample), for a Denon AVR such as the X3600H.

My vol is normally at -20 most of the time and -15 occasionally. At such levels, -66 dB will definitely be inaudible in my HT room regardless of frequency.
Same for me -20.
 
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Skylarlove1999

Audioholic Intern
Sounds like Amir and Sound United are working on figuring out why Amir got the results that he did.


Now all we need is Amir to apologize to Gene publicly for accusing Gene of being a paid shill and we can all move on.
 
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roadwarrior

Audioholic
Sounds like Amir and Sound United are working on figuring out why Amir got the results that he did.


Now all we need is Amir to apologize to Gene publicly for accusing Gene of being a paid shill and we can all move on.
Gene doesn't need anyone's apology. He's been at this a long time and i doubt he has any worries about what other people people say about him. It wouldn't be genuine anyway.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Same for me -20.
Since we are on topic of the practical meaning of AVR's THD+N being as high as/or as low as that measured on some Denon models, I think what we are discussing still pertains to this thread.:D

Just for clarity, as RichB mentioned before that we have to look at the speaker's sensitivity too. -20 in my HT room may not have the same spl as it is in your room unless both systems are calibrated to produce the same spl at the MMP. In my case, vol 0 happens to produce just about 85 dB at my mmp so -20 would be about 65 dB with peaks to about 85 dB for THX standard movies.

So say, if I play Telarc's Copland Fanfare for the Common Man that has some high dynamics from cymbal crashes and that it would get the spl to 85 dB at my mmp. The spl of the harmonics from distortions, based on -65 dB would be 85-65 = 20 dB, that is well below the noise floor in my HT room. I guess that's more or less my counter point to RichB's after I have time to think it through, or at least I think I have think it through.:D

I know his point about humans are more sensitive to a certain range of frequencies, but I highly doubt anyone can hear a 20 dB tone, or multi-tones in the 2 to 6K range in a room within noise floor of 30 dB. One may hear something, but it would likely be harmonics from distortions of the speakers, that may have spl > the 30 dB noise floor.

Example: At about 1kHz, the Wilson puppy 8's THD+N was shown in the Soundstage (https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/wilson_wattpuppy8/)measurements to be about -36 dB, so what would be the effects of the Amp's -65 dB on top? I would like to hear from Dr. Floyd on this. Note that this is for a very expensive speaker.


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tparm

Audioholic
Sounds like Amir and Sound United are working on figuring out why Amir got the results that he did.


Now all we need is Amir to apologize to Gene publicly for accusing Gene of being a paid shill and we can all move on.
Will be interesting to see if Amir's testing methodology for AVRs is flawed (totally possible) or Denon's pre-to-market testing not thorough enough (less likely as I am sure their QC is damn good and good enough for audible results) but I don't think anyone owes Gene anything, he is in this to make money and get clicks just like all the other web-based click-based and review sites with his own interest and bias.
 
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Skylarlove1999

Audioholic Intern
Will be interesting to see if Amir's testing methodology for AVRs is flawed (totally possible) or Denon's pre-to-market testing not thorough enough (less likely as I am sure their QC is damn good and good enough for audible results) but I don't think anyone owes Gene anything, he is in this to make money and get clicks just like all the other web-based click-based and review sites with his own interest and bias.
So if someone publicly accused you of being a paid shill and compromising your integrity for monetary compensation you would be perfectly relaxed about it?

I mean when I see a jackass braying in a field I don't really pay too much atention but if that same jackass grazed up on my porch and started braying I would certainly put him in his place. That's just me.
 
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roadwarrior

Audioholic
Will be interesting to see if Amir's testing methodology for AVRs is flawed (totally possible) or Denon's pre-to-market testing not thorough enough (less likely as I am sure their QC is damn good and good enough for audible results) but I don't think anyone owes Gene anything, he is in this to make money and get clicks just like all the other web-based click-based and review sites with his own interest and bias.
His only interest as an electrical engineer is to inform the public about what the technical specs mean for electronics and how to interpret them so newbs dont get taken by the audiophile shill sites that feed on ignorance. Just because he's been at it long enough and is successful enough to be able to have and pay employees to do wider testing and write more technical articles than just one person could doesn't mean those interests have changed. You can make a living and also keep your integrity by the way. Dr Floyd Toole would not be a contributing writer here over the years if what you say was true.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Will be interesting to see if Amir's testing methodology for AVRs is flawed (totally possible) or Denon's pre-to-market testing not thorough enough (less likely as I am sure their QC is damn good and good enough for audible results) but I don't think anyone owes Gene anything, he is in this to make money and get clicks just like all the other web-based click-based and review sites with his own interest and bias.
I don't remember seeing signs of his methodology being flaw except in the less popular tests such as the HDMI input 32 tones test and some jitter test conditions did seem to have get him some inexplicable weird, or seemingly too poor results. When he found the premature roll off in FR on the Marantz AV8805, he speculated that it was due to slow roll off filters being used, I email Marantz and requested that they forward it to their engineering team, and they responded, confirming the results were in fact due to their filter selection that was intentional on their part, i.e, it was a conscious decision they apparent made. (only for their recent models from what I can see). There were also other cases where manufacturers did confirm his findings).

In this case though, apparently ASR/Denon is still discussing certain things so we don't know, all I know from their site is that they agreed on the SINAD results when the optical inputs are used.

As to AH's testing methodology, imo I feel Gene is the best overall in this field. A degree in EE is a good quality insurance but it means little on its own . Gene obviously is not only an EE, he has a strong background in the related field and mostly importantly he does not jump to conclusions quickly and seems more transparent, willing to take the time to explain how he did his measurements and answer questions, though lately he seems not very accessible, too busy with the Y-tube thing I guess..:) I wish he would review/measure more AVR/AVP/AVCs. If he's too busy, I would volunteer my service, under his direction of course, and would need the AP and funding for the shipping costs. lol..:D
 
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Skylarlove1999

Audioholic Intern
Amir posted a second review. LOL. Surprise surprise his methodology was flawed and was the reason for the poor results NOT THE PERFORMANCE OF THE DENON 4700. I know some of you ASR cult members are over here. You can all suck on it. LOL. Denon rules!! Sound United rules!!

The one significant difference in our setup was that they used an APx585 analyzer which has built-in HDMI output and I was using my desktop workstation as video output. So we chased many paths to try to identify why we were seeing such drastically different results. Many hours were spent in this analysis followed by late night conference calls to sort through this. Right when we thought maybe the explanation is too hard to find, we had a breakthrough. I realized that in my testing I was setting the AVR for 2-channel configuration with Front right and left speakers set to Large, and all other channels configured as "None." The output path form my PC however was 8 channels (determined by Intel GPU HDMI implementation in my Intel CPU). I had turned off all channels beside left and right assuming that would simulate simple 2 channel playback. Well, turned out this was the problem!

 

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PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Amir posted a second review. LOL. Surprise surprise his methodology was flawed and was the reason for the poor results NOT THE PERFORMANCE OF THE DENON 4700. I know some of you ASR cult members are over here. You can all suck on it. LOL. Denon rules!! Sound United rules!!

The one significant difference in our setup was that they used an APx585 analyzer which has built-in HDMI output and I was using my desktop workstation as video output. So we chased many paths to try to identify why we were seeing such drastically different results. Many hours were spent in this analysis followed by late night conference calls to sort through this. Right when we thought maybe the explanation is too hard to find, we had a breakthrough. I realized that in my testing I was setting the AVR for 2-channel configuration with Front right and left speakers set to Large, and all other channels configured as "None." The output path form my PC however was 8 channels (determined by Intel GPU HDMI implementation in my Intel CPU). I had turned off all channels beside left and right assuming that would simulate simple 2 channel playback. Well, turned out this was the problem!

I hear you, but I do give the guy credit for admitting his setting/connection related mistake and gave thanks and credit due to D+M and SU along with the willingness to accept flying eggs. Hopefully in future if he encounter some inexplicably bad results he would take the time investigate before........ People make mistakes, the important thing is to learn from mistakes, not dwell on..
 
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snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
I hear you, but I do give the guy credit for admitting his setting/connection related mistake and gave thanks and credit due to D+M and SU along with the willingness to accept flying eggs. Hopefully in future if he encounter some inexplicably bad results he would take the time investigate before........ People make mistakes, the important thing is to learn from mistakes, not dwell on..
Did he ever work with Yamaha engineers on his Yamaha results? Just curious that the Emotiva and Denon performance improved after working with engineers at each company.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Did he ever work with Yamaha engineers on his Yamaha results? Just curious that the Emotiva and Denon performance improved after working with engineers at each company.
The Yamaha he measured did not show such seemingly inexplicable huge discrepancy between using HDMI and Optical inputs. In fact, he had better readings with HDMI, also the fact that no issues found with the 32 tones test so I am quite sure the same odd way the Denon behaves in the two channel measurement (not a real issue, just has to be careful with the way he took the measurement). If you compare his test results on the RX-A1080, it was much better that Gene's on the RX-A860. The Yamaha WX-A50 and the R-N803 also measured quite well.

When something looked so obviously weird, he didn't even have to contact the manufacturers as some members would do it. In this case there were more than one member who did exactly that, i.e. contacted Denon for comments. When he found the slow filter issue with Marantz, I contacted Marantz customer support and requested that they get a response from their engineering team in Japan, and I let Amir know that too at the time and he had no issues with it (me contacting Marantz).

If you still have doubt about his measurements on the RX-A1080, feel free to contact Yamaha and ask if their internal measurements concur with ASR's, though you may want to give Amir a heads up and should just forward a link to that ASR test to Yamaha, i.e. always good to stay neutral..
 
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roadwarrior

Audioholic
Amir posted a second review. LOL. Surprise surprise his methodology was flawed and was the reason for the poor results NOT THE PERFORMANCE OF THE DENON 4700. I know some of you ASR cult members are over here. You can all suck on it. LOL. Denon rules!! Sound United rules!!

The one significant difference in our setup was that they used an APx585 analyzer which has built-in HDMI output and I was using my desktop workstation as video output. So we chased many paths to try to identify why we were seeing such drastically different results. Many hours were spent in this analysis followed by late night conference calls to sort through this. Right when we thought maybe the explanation is too hard to find, we had a breakthrough. I realized that in my testing I was setting the AVR for 2-channel configuration with Front right and left speakers set to Large, and all other channels configured as "None." The output path form my PC however was 8 channels (determined by Intel GPU HDMI implementation in my Intel CPU). I had turned off all channels beside left and right assuming that would simulate simple 2 channel playback. Well, turned out this was the problem!

For one I'm not a big fan of that guy for a multitude of reasons I wont get into here. I haven't even thought of joining that site because I'm not smart enough for that crowd to contribute much but I do lurk there and read the articles that get linked on Reddit (where I do hang out from time to time) but to be fair he did spend his own personal time going back and forth with Denon over many hours I assume knowing that there was a good chance he was going to get egg on his face and he did it anyways then posted a mea culpa review when it came true.

That's what we should want from those who have access to this expensive measuring equipment and the platform to make or lose sales for a manufacturer with a bad review and a large fan base. This also shows Denon that not just Gene is watching and testing their equipment and Amir has gotten some manufactures to upgrade their products where their tests revealed what Amir's did so there's that. Sucks for the folks who cancelled orders for the 4700 though and have probably bought something else by now. Some will have waited but not everyone. Some good that I hope comes out of this is a continuing dialogue between Amir and Denon so that products under test get a fair shake and Amir gets a look into Denon's testing practices so that he can reproduce issues if and when they arise to hold them accountable to their marketing of great sound quality and parts. Might be a win win.
 

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