Danley DTS-10, or other?

[adwilk]

(which is why the Samson is still in the box).

You have a gadget thats still in the box? C'mon, Meat! Put that thing in the chain NOW.

Actually, it does sound like you might benefit from it. A stronger signal to the amp should make balancing the system at any volume level much easier.

 

[jostenmeat]

You have a gadget thats still in the box? C'mon, Meat! Put that thing in the chain NOW.

Actually, it does sound like you might benefit from it. A stronger signal to the amp should make balancing the system at any volume level much easier.

I have a couple of friends over, and one brought The Doors. It's running right now, but before that I checked levels again with RS meter. I think to get it at 75, slow C, it needs to run about -13 db colder than the fronts. I went about halfway down for the moment, and it's just too hot for some previews. The DTSMA thingy at the start of the movie had my friends cracking up.

I wonder, with so much output ease, if I even need to sweat any of this stuff. I also wonder just how much EQ will change levels, as perhaps the RS meter is picking up a lot of higher ringing tones. Thanks . . . back to movie . . .

 

[MidnightSensi]

Ok, MS, so I did it. However, even at +10, playing full range pink noise, the amp meters are basically at the second light, -20, and maybe just a few times hit the -10 (3rd light). It never hit the clip, let alone thermal. Oh, that's with the knobs at max.

Would this mean that I would benefit from the Samson? Someone was saying that Onkyos in general (and I think perhaps either specifically 875/876 or something, which is very similar to mine), have plenty of preout voltage to drive commercial amps (which is why the Samson is still in the box). I guess I could raise the gain (or whatever the right term is), in the receiver menu too?

As always, appreciate the feedback man.

Nod. The receiver isn't outputting enough to drive the amplifier to full power. I think when you connect the Samson things might fall into place. No boost should be needed at the receiver.

As far as the sound, it might take some tinkering. With subwoofers you want and want and want more bass, then when you have it... it is more about keeping the room under control. Lights rattling, windows rattling, walls shaking, room modes, etc. Getting this horn loaded subwoofer to blend with your mains will require some delay of your LCRs I would bet.

Welcome to step 2.

Glad your having fun!

 

[jostenmeat]

Ok, MS, so I did it. However, even at +10, playing full range pink noise, the amp meters are basically at the second light, -20, and maybe just a few times hit the -10 (3rd light). It never hit the clip, let alone thermal. Oh, that's with the knobs at max.

Would this mean that I would benefit from the Samson? Someone was saying that Onkyos in general (and I think perhaps either specifically 875/876 or something, which is very similar to mine), have plenty of preout voltage to drive commercial amps (which is why the Samson is still in the box). I guess I could raise the gain (or whatever the right term is), in the receiver menu too?

As always, appreciate the feedback man.

Midnight, I'm still getting the same results with the Samson (just got my cabling in), BUT I did lower the sub's gain in receiver by a few db's (because it was simply too hot, at least w/o any EQ).

I hope I know what I'm doing. I started a query here, where for now I am using the second stated method . . . Thanks . . .

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65935

It's ok to put the Samson's knob at max, or "+6"? since I still can't get it to clip right now . . . I might assume the 6 means DBs, because it has a "-10" underneath/designating the knob . . . the other extreme, lowest, is an infinity sign.


edit: OK, Holy #&!$, I thought the house was going to fall down when I threw on ROTK. I so don't understand what's going on. I had to quickly mute. Even at the middle setting, or slightly below, it's pretty insane! whoa . . . (yet I still can't make amp clip with full band pink noise . . . . hmmmm)

edit #2: I just unplugged the Samson, and went back to the orig configuration. I really don't think I need the Samson! There must be some other underlying reason why I can't clip the amp, and jeez louise this thing can shake the house. I'm going to try first a run of Audyssey for it, and I'm crossing my fingers for silence in the area, as this is easily the earliest in the night that I've tried it. Too impatient!

 

[jostenmeat]

update

Man, I like what Audyssey has done. I can see why some people think it "kills" LFE, but even if it does, it's doing so much good. I was quite worried on round 1 of 8 on the calibration, because the sub makes this funky resonance that almost sounds like a rattle. I looked all around, saw some touching speaker wire at sub's corner (wire has caused me a rattle with the left front at one point), and resumed calibration, but that funky sound was still there. I took off the hatch, checked out if any loose wires were there, or if the driver looked damaged, and it's all good I think. One driver is upside down, and would require me to remove it to see if that one is still fine. However, I never noticed this rattling type of resonance with any other test tone or movie sequences.

Well, because Audyssey does limit the natural ability of the sub, in some way, I have it boosted by 4.5 now. I tried boosting by 6, and it's too much compromise to the rest of the sound, and ROTK does seem limited. I put in Star Trek, and didn't get to the movie (because of an amp issue I will talk about), but the Transformers preview had my riser shaking like it's never shook before. I may further reduce the hotness, because obviously +4.5 from the calibration is plenty of power for certain scenes.

The calibration put my sub as 17 db colder than my mains! wow. And my mains are decently sensitive, around 91ish.

The amp issue is how bright it is. It's making a nice large rectangle lit up on the upper part of my screen. So, I oriented the amp sideways (and had to redo wires so that there is barely enough slack), but it makes the corner of my room lit up, and it is a significant detractor to contrast. I will have to double check for backlight settings, but didn't notice any when I first hooked it up.

So I put some dark window tint on the front. Still not enough. I'm going to try solid black electrical tape next. Hopefully* that will be enough, because there is light bleed thru from the numerous vented holes in the front, and then some more light from the two amp meters.

I'm going to return the Samson. It's too insane when it's plugged in, which leads me to believe that maybe what I read about Onkyo preout voltage being good enough is true. I thought the clip limiters were by default as defeated, but I should see if that's not the case, because I couldn't make it clip, not even close.

That is all.

Thanks again to Warp for talking me into this. I'm a whole lot closer to what I originally wanted. I have yet to get to music BD material, but then again this rig is 99% for movies.

-j


edit: darn, it looks like it's too late to return the Samson. oh well.

 

[rmk]

I know a couple of locals who have the DTS-10's and have heard mixed results in regard to SQ. All report the setup is critical. The size limits placement options and so Audyssey’s ability to time align the sub can be a big help. I'm guessing Audyssey set your DTS-10 to the max distance on your processor, no?

Both the Pro version and the MultEQ-XT did that with my Spuds. With more processing horsepower, either Audyssey SubEQ or the SMS version might be an interesting option if you really want to optimize the SQ of the Spud.

 

[jostenmeat]

I know a couple of locals who have the DTS-10's and have heard mixed results in regard to SQ. All report the setup is critical. The size limits placement options and so Audyssey’s ability to time align the sub can be a big help. I'm guessing Audyssey set your DTS-10 to the max distance on your processor, no?

Both the Pro version and the MultEQ-XT did that with my Spuds. With more processing horsepower, either Audyssey SubEQ or the SMS version might be an interesting option if you really want to optimize the SQ of the Spud.

I was expecting the distance to be much greater, however, it wasn't really at all, compared to front stage. Hm. I also don't even know what the max distance is, however, front stage and sub, as a whole, had the largest distances I've received with XT.

I simultaneously appreciate and resent your friendly reminder to exhaust physical setup limitations. I'll get to that after my back is fully healed (almost there as of yesterday, feels good atm), with help at the ready.

I've drooled over the ASEQ1/SubEQ for what feels like years, haha. Now there is the BassQ. BassQ is nice for someone like you, ok at least it WAS, since it can handle 4 subs. SubEQ is nice for me, but it's hard to swallow the price of the Pro kit when I don't have a pro capable processor. The ASEQ1 is said to be mega bright, and because of my issue with the Crown amp, it's an issue that has risen to the forefront (where I didn't think I'd care too much before).

The brightness of the Crown is a real bummer. Hmm. I can pull out EVERYTHING from the rack, unplug everything, and attempt to rearrange stacking order so that it sits low as possible . . . that would take hours just by itself, grrrrrr . . . and it still may not be a 100% cure anyways . . . .

rmk, what pro amps do you use, and I know they're hidden so you may not even have noticed, but any of them that are dim, yet good?

edit: oh yeah, some people like pulling the sub away a bit from wall, and have the horn fire AT the wall. Ivan or maybe it could have even been Tom, but someone important from Danley, said to have horn fire away, at corner. I figure they know best. I have neither really, because while corner placed, the mouth is furthest away from corner. (I have deep fear/apprehension of corner placement already with perceived modal issues from experiments past, but now I also have fear for the large windows along that side wall, haha).

 

[rmk]

I was expecting the distance to be much greater, however, it wasn't really at all, compared to front stage. Hm. I also don't even know what the max distance is, however, front stage and sub, as a whole, had the largest distances I've received with XT.

I simultaneously appreciate and resent your friendly reminder to exhaust physical setup limitations. I'll get to that after my back is fully healed (almost there as of yesterday, feels good atm), with help at the ready.

I've drooled over the ASEQ1/SubEQ for what feels like years, haha. Now there is the BassQ. BassQ is nice for someone like you, ok at least it WAS, since it can handle 4 subs. SubEQ is nice for me, but it's hard to swallow the price of the Pro kit when I don't have a pro capable processor. The ASEQ1 is said to be mega bright, and because of my issue with the Crown amp, it's an issue that has risen to the forefront (where I didn't think I'd care too much before).

The brightness of the Crown is a real bummer. Hmm. I can pull out EVERYTHING from the rack, unplug everything, and attempt to rearrange stacking order so that it sits low as possible . . . that would take hours just by itself, grrrrrr . . . and it still may not be a 100% cure anyways . . . .

rmk, what pro amps do you use, and I know they're hidden so you may not even have noticed, but any of them that are dim, yet good?

edit: oh yeah, some people like pulling the sub away a bit from wall, and have the horn fire AT the wall. Ivan or maybe it could have even been Tom, but someone important from Danley, said to have horn fire away, at corner. I figure they know best. I have neither really, because while corner placed, the mouth is furthest away from corner. (I have deep fear/apprehension of corner placement already with perceived modal issues from experiments past, but now I also have fear for the large windows along that side wall, haha).

Ouch! I completely forgot about your infirmity .. oh well enough about you

I have/had the Crest CC4000 driving my JTR Captivators and my equip closet looks like a disco (do they still have those ) with all the blinking lights. Sensi recommened that amp and I think he likes the light show since he DJ's . I also had a QSC and it was better (smaller lights) but I would not be able to live in the same room with them due the light show and fan noise. My new subs are powered and since I'm down to only two the point is moot

Thanks for the tip on BassQ, I was thinking of doing the Pro Kit (again) and Sub EQ so other options are always good to have.

 

[jostenmeat]

You are funny.

Yeah, the BassQ is cool, because I think it's supposed to be the easiest thing ever. No computer required. I think it might* be a true plug 'n play.

In your case, however, you've had the capability of Pro for a while now. I guess it comes down to whether you think you'll be back to 4 subs again. Knowing you . . . . hmmm . . . .

I think you should go do your best Travolta impersonation in the disco room, and then see how you feel.

 

[rmk]

You are funny.

I'm funny how? I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you?

 

[jostenmeat]

I'm funny how? I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you?

Yes, exactly, awesome!

 

[rmk]

The likeness is uncanny.

 

[MidnightSensi]

Sorry for the delayed response (business trip )

Pro-amps aren't designed for being in front of a home theater. For music, I don't mind the lights, for home theater I tolerate them off to the side. I wish I had an equipment rack built into my side closet, with A/C ducted to the floor and a return out the top, with a nice dark frosted door on the front. Just wasn't within my budget, maybe one day.

All the pro-amps have bright lights, they are designed so you can see them from afar and with stage/floor lighting moving about. If the lights are dim, they are hard to see over strobes, lasers, long distances, smoke machines or whatever else. The older amps lights weren't and bright, but LEDs are insane now.

The fans are because in pro-sound you can have a ton of fan noise and it makes no difference because the levels are so loud, and convection cooling is the most efficient, effective, and cheapest to build...large enough heat sinks to not need a fan are expensive and their radiation pattern doesn't work great in the racks used in pro-sound. The fan noise bothered me on some of my amps but I replaced those with ball-bearing ones of similar cfm and amperage.

It comes down to the market is pretty small for our application, so you kinda have to make do.

What about hiding the amp behind the subwoofer or someplace else? I don't think I've ever seen your listening room to make any recommendations. Is all your stuff up front?

 

[jostenmeat]

No worries man, and thanks. I put black electrical tape, cut out, to fit over the main display, and power light. I thought the large lit up rectangle must have been the display, after all it's the display that is rectangular in shape. While covering the lights up, I discovered it was the itty bitty power light that made the very bright rectangle! I left both covered up. It's much better. While I was at it, I changed my bdp dimmer setting from auto to low, and pushed back my stack of sources a tad deeper into my rack/stand. Ambient lighting is now acceptable. Oh, everything is on the back wall, and most any of the lights are blocked by second row seating on a very tall riser anyways, but since the Crown sits on the very top of the rack (where there was nothing before), that little power light could shoot directly between two seat backs, on to the screen. The lit rectangle was at the very top of screen (left of center), and now I'm wondering if it was a direct reflection off of the ceiling. The little power light is so bright, I can still see the blue light through the black tape, if rather dim indeed.

I had a full house last night, but it was a comedy, so no bass. A friend wanted to hear the sub, so I put on that Transformers preview that I mentioned before, and it was not nearly as visceral this time after just taming it down -1.5db. So, I boosted it back up 1.5 more (4.5 above Audyssey's cal), and I haven't got to trying that again. I'm sure I'll be fiddling with that some more.

Of course, now I'm thinking of adding external EQ, to tailor LF to taste, post-Audyssey, however, I'm out of rack space. To add anything means taking everything out. Which I don't get excited about. Hm. I should read more about what the Crown EQ can do. If you got any tips, I'm all ears!

 

[MidnightSensi]

Glad you have it worked out!

I haven't been using Audyssey lately, but I actually like the levels it sets for the bass. If the bass is too high above the mains, I find the pressure is there but the slam is gone.

The built in EQ should be plenty to tailor to taste. Just remember you'll need to defeat it before running Audyssey again if your trying to tailor to taste post-audyssey.

You may want to have a few presets on the Crown. Like one with no EQ, one that is a bit warmer, a few difference curves... you can save a few for your different needs. Like if you have a party maybe a bit higher of a low-frequency cutoff

I'm also curious at rmk's question of if Audyssey is maxed out with the delay.

What mains do you have?

 

[jostenmeat]

I'm also curious at rmk's question of if Audyssey is maxed out with the delay.

What mains do you have?

If you read my response, I think I was trying to say that I don't even know what the max is to begin with (but all numbers are high, outside of surrounds), and that there really isn't any more delay compared to mains, believe it or not. I dunno man. This time I used the whole mic boom/adapters in attempting to get better results. The mains are PSB Image T55s.

However, I was wondering. . . the sub's bass sort of has to get past the riser/seating to hit the mic/ears at the front row, if not the back row's ears too. I wonder if this has anything to do with delay measurements. Maybe the bass waves have to "stretch around" the riser/seating to get to the mic? (Sub's mouth is at floor, on back wall.) Just pulling stuff outta my butt.

I will check out the Crown EQ at some point, don't know when. You can be sure I'll buggin you with more questions when that time comes. heh

 

[MidnightSensi]

If you read my response, I think I was trying to say that I don't even know what the max is to begin with (but all numbers are high, outside of surrounds), and that there really isn't any more delay compared to mains, believe it or not. I dunno man. This time I used the whole mic boom/adapters in attempting to get better results. The mains are PSB Image T55s.

However, I was wondering. . . the sub's bass sort of has to get past the riser/seating to hit the mic/ears at the front row, if not the back row's ears too. I wonder if this has anything to do with delay measurements. Maybe the bass waves have to "stretch around" the riser/seating to get to the mic? (Sub's mouth is at floor, on back wall.) Just pulling stuff outta my butt.

I will check out the Crown EQ at some point, don't know when. You can be sure I'll buggin you with more questions when that time comes. heh

Nod, the reason I ask is your mains are direct radiating speakers and your subwoofer is a horn. With a horn, you add the scoop length, which audyssey probably measures so thats why your subwoofer may show at a greater distance than you'd measure it with a tape measure. I've generally used the rule of thumb that 1foot of horn length requires about 1ms of delay. I'm actually not sure if this works out because of driver phase over frequency, but I assume its close to the scoop length divided by the speed of sound. So that's meters / (meters/second). So (.33 m) / (340 m/s) is about 1ms.

Audyssey should automatically account for this, but sometimes you run out of delay. I'm not sure how much delay Audyssey can have, but rmk seems to have seen it maxed out before...which got me thinking.

I donno, I'm just rambling.

 

[rmk]

FWIW, both of my Integra's (9.8 & 80.1) Audyssey set the under riser Danley's to max distance (I think it's 25'). True distance from the horn exit to the #1 LP is <10'.

 

[jostenmeat]

You may want to have a few presets on the Crown. Like one with no EQ, one that is a bit warmer, a few difference curves... you can save a few for your different needs. Like if you have a party maybe a bit higher of a low-frequency cutoff.

Man, I had no idea how feature packed a $500, 800W x2 @ 4ohm (or is that wildly exaggerated, but anyhoo) pro amp could be! So, I DL'd Harman's Band Manager, and while just playing around with my first guesses at what I want to do with the EQ, here I am googling low shelf, high shelf, haven't hit sub synth yet.

I unplugged the speakons (these have become a real blessing, as I can't keep count how many times I've already plugged/unplugged, so thanks for that rec) before playing around.

While running searches on the types of filters, I see that dbx has come up as a well regarded product. Now I'm very curious what you have done with yours, and what model it might be.


Anyways, I am not sure if I should just use the shelving filters, before even plugging in frequencies of choice, tweakable by +/-15 db margins. It allows me to tweak 6 freq's of choice. Actually, I think maybe I should play with shelf-filters first. I am not measuring with software and mic here, but just want more visceral bass at this point, post-Audyssey.

Obviously you're more familiar with Crown than I am, wait I think you might own one(?), but you can't EQ below 20hz with a specified freq. When I plug in successive freq's chosen for instance, 3hz apart, it's never exactly 3hz, but something like 20, 23.106, 26.xxx, 28.xxx, etc. It seems to be pretty friendly software for sure. I hope I don't get confused when I get to loading my first preset here. Just blabbering. I should grab a beer.

Oh, I'm not looking to change presets for parties, or something. This is a pure HT machine, pretty much. The only other preset I can think of is for classical music concert blurays, as of right now.

 

[MidnightSensi]

It's not wildly exaggerated, Crown is good stuff.

Most the prosound EQs will only go down to 20Hz notches, so that is a limitation.

The speakon's are the way to go, huh? Haha. They make regular speaker connections seem silly and cumbersome.

dbX is good. I have a simple DriveRack PRO+ that I use for my left and right to blend with the left and right subwoofers. It allows for me to select my crossover slope, EQ, levels, limiting. You'd hate the bright LCD screen though. Those go through to Crest amps. My Crown XTi is for my center channel, and all the DSP functions I need are built right into the amp (as you have found!) I use the dbX as my bass management, RTA, mostly some cuts around modes in my room to flatten the response.


Glad your having fun, keep tinkering!