Comparison between the Hsu VTF-3 HO and the SVS PB12-Ultra

[craigsub]

I see. thanks craig, carry on!

For now, I am lurking in your thread. Pretty cool stuff - as soon as I can find something meaningful to add, I will chime in. Of course, that could take months ...

 

[zonomorph]

Is the PB-12 Plus/2 as good as the HO and Ultra sound quality wise, or does that extra output come at a price?

 

[JonnyOzero3]

Wow.

This is one serious subwoofer. Just hooked it up, listened for a min, wasn't satisfied...realized my settings were all wrong, then ran my HK AVR-435's Auto EQ (which actually helped), and sat down to:

- Nickleback - All the Right Reasons
- Shinedown - Us And Them
- Jacques Loussier Trio - Baroque Favorites
- Hsu/BAS CD sampler (at first I thought they misspelled "bass" haha)

Then:
- Finding Nemo - Sharks and Darla
- Incredibles - Rocket Scene
- War of the Worlds - Lightning and Machine Rises

It's 1am. I have to be up early for work, but I don't care. Frankly, I am amazed. Upon my first listen, the HO seems to have articulation and detail on par with my previous sub, the Onix Rocket UFW-10. But, it also extends way...way deeper, and can play much louder. I don't think I could pressurize my room this much with a pair of the UFW-10s.

The music I listened to just sounded plain "great". Everything was natural yet had this addiciting slam. More so than I've been used to lately. Very nice. I'm hesitant to get too enthusiastic, but I had a nagging thought that the Hsu blended with my Ascends better than did the Rocket. It didn't draw attention to itself at all. I don't think you'd ever guess it was behind you unless you knew it was there. Of course, it vibrates the couch a lot, so maybe you could guess

The movies, well...wow. My ears are tired and I didn't even get the amp warm to the touch. My UFW-10 on the other hand sometimes smells like it's cooking. Big difference there. I've played the Darla scene several times on my Rocket and I had no idea what it was really supposed to sound like. I also peaked over 100db on WOTW at the machine rises (just SPL meter). I don't know what to say...it sounds excellent. I listened to this scene on my buddy's VTF-2MKII and it was making port noise or something. I didn't get any here. I've only been into this HT for a few years, but I feel very, very good about this purchase.

Random notes: The packaging was sufficient. Some of the styrofoam flaked and got all over the turbo, that was annoying. Fit and finish look great to me, exact match for my stealthy ascends Port bung looks...bung-y. And damn, this thing is huge (to me). I could fit 2 1/2 UFW-10s inside it! Looks cool though, the turbo has a "whoa...what?" factor that I kind of like. I have friends coming over tomorrow for Hump-Day-Halo, so we'll see what comments they make. I think, "Dude...you're nuts" will be one of them.

More to follow when I have time. Just wanted to share that I am very happy with my purchase at first glance. Can't wait to BFD/REqW it.

 

[w8liftr]

Great thread. I've been struggling with deciding which sub to buy and the other forums get turned into flame wars too qiuck. Thanks for providing some unbiased test/opinions on these great products. i look forward to reading more.

 

[Manic Miner]

What Ilkka did was that he calculated the difference between the GP, and Craigs inroom FR for the Ultra. By doing that he now knows how the room affects the FR, and that could then be removed from the HOs inroom FR to give us a quasi GP FR for the HO.

Now that quasi GP FR for the HO does not look to good, so the question is why.

 

[Audioholics]

1) Craig, thanks for the thread. It's wildly popular and you are to be congratulated for your efforts.

2) Ilkka - if you have a technical question or argument do it nicely and leave the person and history out of it. Ask once and shut up - you don't "deserve" an answer.

3) Craig you need thicker skin, but I understand there is a "history" here I am not privy to. Nevertheless, suck it up - ignore the personal stuff and address the issues/questions. Or don't. But there's no need to whine or make demands. You are bigger than that.

4) Ilkka and all - if I have to do this much stinking work to clean up a thread again I'm going to hit the ban button with a vengeance. We don't play those games here so get with the program or go somewhere else. We have better things to do with our time than babysit.

Keep it impersonal and about the data. If you have a beef go to the Steam vent and post a link to it without commentary that derails the entire thread. If you have a personal beef, write a letter.

You're all like a bunch of freaking toddlers.

Carry on...

 

[Ilkka]

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21176

Okay, the posts were moved there. Better than the lock and delete tactics on another board.

But still I find this thread a little bit strange, if one can't criticize any posts or measurements done?

 

[Manic Miner]

Clint That was a lot better than what we are used to, having threads locked and deleted. Ilkka raised some interesting questions, but he probably could have been a bit more polite about it. I hope Craig will answer, if not it is up to those following the thread to make their own judgement

 

[Sheep]

Good job Clint.

So, whats next in the test?

SheepStar

 

[craigsub]

Tonight, I have to put together a temp system due to some construction we have going on ...

Hopefully, that won't take too long ... then we will explore a few more graphs.

 

[Ron Temple]

Thanks Clint

 

[ssabripo]

i just installed the hacked.....uhm, I mean, "fully open" version ( ) of TrueRTA. Got the 8 channel I/O 24bit soundcard on hand, and will soon start doing some measurements and tests, and maybe I will start to understand all the ins/outs of all this debates.

good graphs and good info thus far fellas...lets keep it going. Thanks Clint for not closing the thread, as there is good info in here so far.

 

[Ilkka]

Since Clint allowed me to do one technical question, here it comes.

If both subs were placed side by side and were totally non-equalized, how come we see such a boost in both HSU graphs? And remember that we know what Ultra's GP response looks like, it's already boosted in 20-60 Hz range.

If the mic wasn't at the same place both times, can we see 1/24 oct. graphs mic at the same place?

HSU HO with and without the turbo:

HSU HO without turbo and SVS Ultra 16 Hz

HSU HO with turbo and SVS Ultra 16 Hz

 

[silversurfer]

Correct me if I am wrong, but differences could be due to driver and port orientation, correct?

I know in my room, moving a sub just a few inches can cause a huge difference in FR in the listenning position.

 

[craigsub]

Correct me if I am wrong, but differences could be due to driver and port orientation, correct?

I know in my room, moving a sub just a few inches can cause a huge difference in FR in the listenning position.

Quicksweep is a pretty cool function - for starters, it is really quick. I took 50 or so sweeps on each sub from all around the room. Some of the graphs looked like a mountain range ... others were much smoother.

The three, as posted, were just three roughly average graphs. None of the three had the microphone in the same position.

And yes, just moving the microphone 3 inches can have a major effect.

 

[---k---]

Craig,

I've been there, and done that. I know when I was measuring my subs, I moved the mic all over the place and snapping graphs along the way. When I was finished, I had a ton of graphs. Unfortunately, it seemed like I didn't know what half the graphs I had made were, and the other half I knew what there were, but was wishing that I had saved a differnt graph, or did something differnt. So, I know how easy it is to skip around, get a real good feel for what is going on, and know in your head what the results should look like, but it is very difficult to take the results that you got and present it to everyone here in a perfect presentation.

I think people who haven't had multiple subs in their room at once and tried to experiment with mutliple placement, and computer graphing under-estimate how exhausting it is to do. And may be reading more into the graphs than what they should or expecting too much.

You could probably put more disclaimers, and provide more detail about how the graphs, and maybe that would quell the responses. Because, based on my experance, I don't think there is anything wrong with what you've done and I have no doubt about the validity of your hearing. But, I'm also not putting a lot of weight into your in-room graphs, because like you clarified, it is at differnt mic postions (which I assumed from the first time I saw them, I didn't need it pointed out to me) so not perfectly comparable.

 

[silversurfer]

The bottomline is sound is all about perception. These graphs from Craig's room are entertaining and imformative, but won't tell you much about how the subs will do in your own room and/or your perception of the sound quality. A few dB here or there, most people will not be able to tell the difference in the real world.

The best thing to come of this I think is the illustration that there are or there are not subjective differences, measureable or not.

 

[Ilkka]

I think people who haven't had multiple subs in their room at once and tried to experiment with mutliple placement, and computer graphing under-estimate how exhausting it is to do. And may be reading more into the graphs than what they should or expecting too much.

I'm not sure who you directed this, but I can assure that I've set multiple subs in many different rooms and taken hundreds measurements with TrueRTA. I know the problems, but when done correctly, they are a huge help when placing and tuning a subwoofer.

But, I'm also not putting a lot of weight into your in-room graphs, because like you clarified, it is at differnt mic postions (which I assumed from the first time I saw them, I didn't need it pointed out to me) so not perfectly comparable.

Sure, mic place can cause some differences, but when making a direct comparo like this, I think it should be an assumption that mic is kept at the same place. There is no point to even post incomparable graphs. It causes only confusion.

 

[Stone__Man]

It's taken me some time to get to this page {i read all the "moved" stuff as well}. And just as long to determine if I was going to post this.

I am VERY new to this scene, and as a n00b, I don't understand "JACK" about the graphs, I do understand people much better and the two main players in the "problem" both made mistakes, honestly or intentional, who cares . big deal. then others jump on the abuse band wagon ,maybe two wrongs make a right in this day and age? how on earth that was supposed to help is beyond me. Sorry, enough of that.

Personally I could care less WHO it is that is sharing thier,knowledge, questions, thoughts and views. I appreciate it all the same from any and all, from "best in the world" to "just sold my bose" and anyone inbetween. Why is everyone here? what is the common thread? Thirst for knowledge and the enjoyment of this most interesting um... hobby ,right? so let's all enjoy all that is shared in this thread from whomever the source, and if someone has a question , we should take it for what it is...a question and a chance to maybe see things from a different angle and hopefully gain a broader understanding of what is being presented. Quite honestly, my favorite parts in this [and any]thread have/has been when someone asks a question. Those such as myself , with limited knowledge, can learn more by someone posing questions, then with no questions at all. I know I'm blathering on here sorry .

With my limited knowledge, I gain more from spoken[typed hehe] word than i do from graphs, they are important I understand, to those that have some know-how. My frame of reference is all the so-called "professional" reviews done of AV products, they for the most part don't include much in the way of graphs, if any at all, why? u tell me? but I think its because a large number of the readers of those reviews are like myself, and gather more value from information that is presented in .... um simple english . . rather than graphs and all the acronyms & techno/audio jargon, that many like to throw around as they themselves gain a better understanding of the AV world.
Actually it would be nice if someone could share a AV jargon reference sheet of sorts, it wold help many readers i believe that are too afraid to ask and feel stupid about their lack of knowing the terms being used. And with graphs , a line that shows what the optimum or most desired reading is , would be most helpful.
Mod, if this type of post should not be here do with it as u will.

Share the knowledge . . . as you were .

 

[Josuah]

Well, for frequency response graphs, the optimum is simple: a perfectly flat horizontal line that is as high up in dB as possible. In reality, what you will aim for is as flat a horizontal line for as wide a range of frequencies as you can get, and push that line upwards in dB as far as it will go before it becomes non-flat anymore. That's dB value is where the sub has reached it maximum dB in optimal performance.

As you push in more power, you can get some frequencies to go higher in dB than others and lose the flatness, and that's a trade-off some people will make.

There's a whole bunch of other graphs that are important too, which are not being presented on this thread. I think a good place to look is the subwoofer shootouts at www.avtalk.co.uk and then Google the terms they use on those graphs.