Cheap preamp/amp on high end speakers?

[ellisr63]

Can you expand on that? I see you still have those 2208s, never found a good use for mine....yet.

I dont have the 2208 anymore...I did not like it due to a constant in fan, so I sold it. We now have a DIY 14 channel amp built with B&O amp modules.

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[lovinthehd]

I dont have the 2208 anymore...I did not like it due to a constant in fan, so I sold it. We now have a DIY 14 channel amp built with B&O amp modules.

Sent from my SM-T550 using Tapatalk

They're still in your signature...and now that you mention it I think I already knew that at one point LOL. Nice job on the amp! Got pics or a build thread? Hope all is well.

 

[ellisr63]

They're still in your signature...and now that you mention it I think I already knew that at one point LOL. Nice job on the amp! Got pics or a build thread? Hope all is well.

I will post up some pics when I get it out of storage from our move.

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[ellisr63]

Actually In am ashamed to say I was mistaken... the 2208 was sitting in storage. I do not like it due to fan noise where as the p2500, and p7000 were excellent amps with zero fan noise. Since I am in Mexico now, and most likely will not find a buyer for the 2208... I will most likely use it for my height channels, and it will be behind me on a loft behind a short wall so fan noise should not be a problem.

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[Cjamrr]

I was trying to get a listening session on the 1038’s but my dealer didn’t have any. I was going to buy them at upscale audio for a discounted price.

I recently purchased a pair of Focal Kanta No. 2.
My dealer recommended the Anthem MCA325 amp to go with the Kanta. What is your opinion on that amp? Is it enough or do you recommend more.

What Amp are you using with your 1038‘S ?

 

[PENG]

I am not familiar with the Kanta but I know the MCA325 is definitely powerful enough for the 1038 Be even if you sit 4 meters from them.

 

[Cjamrr]

Help me me understand this. I’m hearing 225 watt amp is plenty for a 45-300 watt speaker. Then I’m hearing 600 watts amp is better for the 45-300 watt speaker. I’m confused. Been watching Gene’s video on amps and get it right.

 

[PENG]

Help me me understand this. I’m hearing 225 watt amp is plenty for a 45-300 watt speaker. Then I’m hearing 600 watts amp is better for the 45-300 watt speaker. I’m confused. Been watching Gene’s video on amps and get it right.

Have you tried the often linked speak spl calculator to figure out your need yet? The thing is, if you have watched Gene's video, you will know that there is no magical way to "match" amp power to speakers, for the reasons he explained in that video. One technical reason cited in the video has to do with the power ratings of speakers, that manufacturers (less so for pro audios) don't follow the same standards and measuring methodologies in terms of power rating. Power handling aside, your actual power need depends on many factors, including but not limited to the target spl you desired, sitting distance, your speaker's sensitivity, placement, room dimensions etc.

As an example, I have used my diy 5 watts per channel amp to drive my 1028 Be, side by side with my 300W/500W 8/4 ohms 4BSST without feeling wanting, sitting distance is about 8 ft in that case. I normally listen to 68 to 73 dB average only, and that's the main reason. If I were to listen to 85 dB average, or even 75 dB average sitting 12 ft from the speakers, the 5 W amp would have been clipping like crazy when listening to classical music that has more than 15 dB peaks.

So not knowing your listening habit, environment and type/model of speakers, it will be right to tell you to get as much power as you can afford and willing to spend, but the fact is, you may only need 50 W or less for those Focal speakers to sound great in your room. It is also true to say more power than you need should never hurt because most speakers will let you know when it is time to dial back the volume. So if money is not an issue, I would say go for a 300/500W (8/4ohms) good quality amp, otherwise, use a good peak spl calculator such as the one that has been linked to on a daily basis to figure your need, and then double it for more than enough safety margin.

 

[Cjamrr]

Thank you. I do have better understanding now, I watched Gene’s video before and just watched it again. Great info. I can get a little over a grand off the Anthem SRT power amp which would be 400W 8ohms. Or $700 off the Anthem MCA 325.
In your opinion, where could I expect the difference be in sound quality between the two?

 

[Joe B]

Can I ask a question? Why go with a 3 channel amp to drive 2 speakers? Is it the discount? Why not go with a MCA 225? And those Kanta 2 speakers, at 91 db sensitivity, would have no problem being driven by an Anthem amp rated at 225 watts. But, if you can spring for the STR, go for it!
PS: I listened to a pair of Kanta's and Sopra's this summer.....wonderful!

 

[Cjamrr]

I thought the 3 channel amp would be good for my front and center for HT. My center speaker is Focal chorus cc700.

 

[Cjamrr]

Would you use a 3 channel amp for HT fronts and let the AVP run the rear surround. With the option to use music on 2 channel. That is my quess. Although I like the idea of the STR Amp 2 channel for my Focal Kanta’s playing music. I’m into classic rock from 60’s- 80’s. I sit about 14 -30 ‘ away from front speakers. Once in awhile I turn up music loud. Not crazy loud. Action Movies I like loud. I’m ready to purchase a amp now, just need to make the right choice. Help

 

[PENG]

Thank you. I do have better understanding now, I watched Gene’s video before and just watched it again. Great info. I can get a little over a grand off the Anthem SRT power amp which would be 400W 8ohms. Or $700 off the Anthem MCA 325.
In your opinion, where could I expect the difference be in sound quality between the two?

I expect no difference in sound quality, only different in output that is moot if either has more than enough for your application.

 

[MrBoat]

I recall a day when 200wpc was approaching absurdity in a residential setting. I own an older, 200W Adcom, that I had paired with Cerwin Vega D9's (may be resurrecting these speakers soon) and it was ridiculously loud, even outdoors. That combination lived most of it's life at no more than about 1/4th of it's capability, and that, when I used to listen to loud music most of the time.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Help me me understand this. I’m hearing 225 watt amp is plenty for a 45-300 watt speaker. Then I’m hearing 600 watts amp is better for the 45-300 watt speaker. I’m confused. Been watching Gene’s video on amps and get it right.

If I owned speakers rated for 45-300W, I would be good with 100-200 WPC amp.

The salient thing is to never play extremely loud.

But if you're asking if too much power is more dangerous for your speakers, that's another hot topic that's been debated forever.

This is my take on this subject based on my studies at the University of Google (like that? @PENG)

What damages speakers?

1. The actual clipping or distortion?
2. The actual POWER/ENERGY being sent to the speakers?

The answer is the actual ENERGY/POWER being sent to the speakers causing Thermal and/or Mechanical damages.

For example, if a speakers has been tested to truly handle 900W, a 10 WPC amp will NEVER be able to damage the speaker. However, a 500W amp could damage this speakers if the amp clips.

What happens to the POWER output to the speakers when the amp clips? The power output could DOUBLE. So a 300W amp could output 600W when it clips. A 500W amp could output 1000W.

So if your speakers can handle 300W and your 300W amp clips, your speakers could get 600W of "clipped" power/ENERGY. Thus, your speakers would be fried.

That's my take from my studies at the University of Google.

Would also like to hear what other members think (@TLS Guy, @M Code, @shadyJ, @TechHDS, and others).

Is there already a thread or article about "What causes speaker damages"?

For full disclosure, I have never ever blown a speaker in my life.

 

[shadyJ]

If I owned speakers rated for 45-300W, I would be good with 100-200 WPC amp.

The salient thing is to never play extremely loud.

But if you're asking if too much power is more dangerous for your speakers, that's another hot topic that's been debated forever.

This is my take on this subject based on my studies at the University of Google (like that? @PENG)

What damages speakers?

1. The actual clipping or distortion?
2. The actual POWER/ENERGY being sent to the speakers?

The answer is the actual ENERGY/POWER being sent to the speakers causing Thermal and/or Mechanical damages.

For example, if a speakers has been tested to truly handle 900W, a 10 WPC amp will NEVER be able to damage the speaker. However, a 500W amp could damage this speakers if the amp clips.

What happens to the POWER output to the speakers when the amp clips? The power output could DOUBLE. So a 300W amp could output 600W when it clips. A 500W amp could output 1000W.

So if your speakers can handle 300W and your 300W amp clips, your speakers could get 600W of "clipped" power/ENERGY. Thus, your speakers would be fried.

That's my take from my studies at the University of Google.

Would also like to hear what other members think (@TLS Guy, @M Code, @shadyJ, @TechHDS, and others).

Is there already a thread or article about "What causes speaker damages"?

For full disclosure, I have never ever blown a speaker in my life.

The danger is that when an amplifier clips, the energy in the voltage waveform gets shifted up in frequency, and a lot more energy gets dumped into the tweeter which isn't able to handle nearly as much current as the woofer. Clipping causes harmonic distortion, and the more distortion there is in a signal, the more energy gets shifted upwards in frequency. While a speaker might be rated for 150 watts for example, that is probably a spec for a broadband signal. The tweeter in such a speaker might only be able to handle 10 or 20 watts, so if you feed it 150 watts, especially in a very high frequency, it will overheat the voice coil. Clipping kills tweeters.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The danger is that when an amplifier clips, the energy in the voltage waveform gets shifted up in frequency, and a lot more energy gets dumped into the tweeter which isn't able to handle nearly as much current as the woofer. Clipping causes harmonic distortion, and the more distortion there is in a signal, the more energy gets shifted upwards in frequency. While a speaker might be rated for 150 watts for example, that is probably a spec for a broadband signal. The tweeter in such a speaker might only be able to handle 10 or 20 watts, so if you feed it 150 watts, especially in a very high frequency, it will overheat the voice coil.

So the main problem is the energy going to the Tweeter.

If the amp clips, additional power may be shifted toward the Tweeter.

But even if the amp doesn't clip, the if the tweeter gets more than 20 or 30 Watts, it would still overheat the voice coil.

Case#1.
Speaker is rated for "500W". Amplifier is 200 Watts.

Silk Dome Tweeter Power Handling (ScanSpeak 9500):
https://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/pdf/d2905-950000.pdf

100h RMS noise test = 150 W
Long-term Max power = 460 W

If the amp clips, up to 400W goes to the total speaker (all drivers). But perhaps a lot of that 400W goes to the Tweeter.

In this case, the tweeter might possibly handle the clipped energy since the peak power handling is 460W.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Clipping kills tweeters.

Case#2.
Speaker is rated for "500W". Amplifier is 200 Watts.

Diamond Dome Tweeter Power Handling (Seas Excel T29D001):
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/diamond-dome-tweeters/seas-excel-t29d001-diamond-dome-tweeter-matched-pair/

Short-term = 150W
Long-term = 55W

If the 200W amp clips, a lot of the possible 400W could go to the Tweeter. Short-term or long-term, this tweeter is fried.

But what if the amp is 1,000W and doesn't clip, but volume is almost at max? Couldn't 200W of the 1,000W amp go to the tweeter anyway and fry the tweeter even if the amp NEVER clips?

Or for long-term, couldn't more than 75W of power go to the tweeter even if the amp never clips?

 

[M Code]

In my experience in working with some of the chief engineers for certain major well-respected audio brands of quality loudspeakers... They have all told me high output power is not what destroys a loudspeaker but rather distortion.... So in reality more loudspeakers are destroyed with low-powered amplifiers rather than high-powered... This is often debated by less experienced people.. But the standard use-case is when a low-powered AVR is pushed hard(tone controls on boost). And then will output alot of distortion and by the time listener has reacted the loudspeaker has already been damaged...

Just my $0.02...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

In my experience in working with some of the chief engineers for certain major well-respected audio brands of quality loudspeakers... They have all told me high output power is not what destroys a loudspeaker but rather distortion.... So in reality more loudspeakers are destroyed with low-powered amplifiers rather than high-powered... This is often debated by less experienced people.. But the standard use-case is when a low-powered AVR is pushed hard(tone controls on boost). And then will output alot of distortion and by the time listener has reacted the loudspeaker has already been damaged...

Just my $0.02...

Are they saying just the distortion itself, regardless of the Power or Energy going to the drivers, is causing all the damage?

I assume they mean "a lot of distortion" in the form of "clipping" that causes more ENERGY (and high-frequency energy shift) to go to the drivers (especially tweeters).

But it makes sense to me that the excess ENERGY is what causes the damage.

If distortion occurs but the resulting energy is less than the limits of the drivers, how would this damage the drivers?

Wouldn't AVRs have built-in speaker protection circuits that would cause the AVR to go into Protection Mode if clipping occurs?

The Tone Controls point is interesting. I do know some people who love to use Tone Controls and Manual EQ to boost certain frequencies. If they were to boost the Treble frequencies, that could definitely push even more Energy toward the tweeter.