Behringer A500 Amplifier: Objective Test Results

majorloser

majorloser

Moderator
mtrycrafts said:
You are right. The other day I picked up an inexpensive Teflon coated pan and it warped on the first try. It was as if it was aluminum foil:D
I returned it and got a thicker pan; works like a charm:D
Let's just say that the B&K amp wasn't the best purchase I've ever made. More expensive doesn't mean better quality.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Overlord
rolyasm said:
Using an SPL I set all my listening volumes to 90dB, which is louder than I normally listen to.
Roly, if you were listening at 90 dB average, the peak SPL would probably exceed the point where the 3801 clipped and the power amp did not. Did you notice those peaks on your SPL meter? I hope you are going to do more comparisons at lower levels, e.g. 75 dB average and let us know the results.
 
R

rolyasm

Full Audioholic
Thanks for the support Mulester,
You're a great guy. Peng, what do I look for on my SPL to tell me if my receiver amp was clipping? Yes, there were times when the needle was more erratic one way or the other, but I don't know how to tell from the SPL what clipping looks like. Let me know and I will be sure to observe for it. Also, I did listen at lower levels, but not as critically. I will try that if I get some time today and see if there are any noticeable differences. When listening at leves around 75-80, I miss a lot of detail on my system of Denon and Polks. I didn't realize this until recently auditioning speakers for my dedicated HT. All the demos were louder than I usually listen to movies ( I said usually) and they all seemed to have more detail. Well, I came home and cranked up my Polks with the same reference movies. Guess what? They sounded more detailed. I could hear things I hadn't heard before on the soundtracks. Like Duh. Anyway, I believe my speakers are a weak point in my system and probably at lower output levels I won't hear much difference because my speakers are the limitation. When I start to push them is when I think I will hear more difference. As an analogy, at 40-50dB, I bet hardly anyone could make out a difference even between most speakers. Of course, I could be talking out of my butt and not know what the heck I am saying. :D
Roly
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Overlord
rolyasm said:
what do I look for on my SPL to tell me if my receiver amp was clipping?
Your meter won't tell you. I was just thinking that if you listen to a level with an average reading of 90 dB, you may in fact be listening at much higher; say 95 or even over 100 dB SPL peaks, depending on the source music. You should be able to see the needle swings pass 90 from time to time but you may not be able to see the absolute maximum peaks that tend to last for a very short time. Whether the receiver's amps clip or not, at that high a level they may sound harsh due to increased distortion. My 3805 on its own can sound a little harsh too, even at 90 dB (continuous/average).

I hope you are having fun doing such comparisons, but don't forget to enjoy your new amp and the improved sound!
 
mulester7

mulester7

Audioholic Samurai
.....Peng, what decibel level would you assign for let's say, "moderate-plus"?....60?....65?....70?.....
 
mulester7

mulester7

Audioholic Samurai
PENG said:
I hope you are having fun doing such comparisons, but don't forget to enjoy your new amp and the improved sound!
.....Peng, let's be careful to keep in mind that Rolyasm is using a Behringer EP2500 pulled away from sub duties and being used for full-range, not a Behringer A500....
 
mulester7

mulester7

Audioholic Samurai
rolyasm said:
Thanks for the support Mulester, you're a great guy.
.....Rolyasm, you need to trust me when I tell ya' I'm worthless as pond scum....I took an aptitude test the other day and they told me the best I could hope for would be using one hand to pitch corn to chickens.....
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Audioholic Slumlord
beppe61 said:
Following it I will check my speakers and their position in the room.
beppe61 said:
Speaker position is the easiest to correct but not the be all end all solution. You still have the room to contend with and the speakers themselves.

My current digital source is a Pioneer DV-717 dvd player (to be replaced ?).
Could a better source smooth that slightly rasping midrange (distortion?) I am hearing now?


No, it will not affect it. Is this mid-range raspiness on everything you listen to or just on some. If the latter, then it is a recording problem. If you have the issue on everything you listen to, then it is a speaker, room acoustics or a combination. Maybe your mid-range driver is defective???


I am quite sure that with a vinyl source the problems would be fewer.

If, that solves this issue, it is due to the limitations of the vinyl medium rolling off the offending bands, not due to the CD medium. It could be the way it was mastered to CD though for sure.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Audioholic Slumlord
majorloser said:
Let's just say that the B&K amp wasn't the best purchase I've ever made. More expensive doesn't mean better quality.

Well, the pan I bought wasn't the really expensive ones:D I tried one of those. No better than the lesser ones but certainly better than the foil job:D :D
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Audioholic Slumlord
rolyasm said:
. After my disapproving look reminded her this was for science, she quickly removed her fingers.
Tomorrow we repeat the test. Roly

What you may want to do is use a test tone on each amp to see where that spl level is with the volume control versus the other amp at the same volume control. You may have to change the volume setting for each amp.
Music is a poor source to use to level match and compare.
 
R

rolyasm

Full Audioholic
.....Rolyasm, you need to trust me when I tell ya' I'm worthless as pond scum....I took an aptitude test the other day and they told me the best I could hope for would be using one hand to pitch corn to chickens.....
Today 12:24 PM
You are a hoot. Unfortunately, I am a professional corn chucker, so Mtrycrafts, you'll have to give me some more info on why to do this. My mamma said I wasn't none to smart.
I am leaving the gains on the Behringer at mid-point and using only the volume control on the Denon to control the volume. I am not sure why it matters whether or not I use test tones to generate a 80 dB reading or a music/movie source. Are you just implying that by using the music as the test material that I may be actually adding a dB or two to one amp or the other, and thereby creating a disadvantage? So set the test tones first and leave the volume knob alone after that?
I might have to find some better test material then. Some of the songs are much quieter than the others.
Roly
 
highfihoney

highfihoney

Audioholic Samurai
beppe61 said:
2) I am somewhat scared by tone controls. I would prefer to succeed without using them.
Hi beppe,please dont think i was slamming your bryston preamp because that was not the case,bryston makes quality gear,what i was questioning about the bryston is why you feel that tone controls are a bad thing & what negative aspect do you think will be added to your listening experience from the use of tone control ?

Tone controls do not adversly effect a systems sound in any way they simply do the job that they were designed for & in most cases can immensly help the overall sound,if you have harsh highs the solution is as easy as turning a knob,no hideous room treatments,no equipment changes or expensive upgrades,no tube rolling,no tweeking & most importantly no cable upgrades.

Weather you know it or not most preamps effect the sound more than any other peice of gear in the system,the one & only way to get a 100% neutral presentation is to run your source directly from the amplifier or with a passive preamp(fancy word for external volume control),all preamps color the sound weather they are tone control preamps or non tone control preamps.

I see you heading down all the wrong roads chasing a perfection that will never be found,your source is most likely not the culprit nor is the amplifier,amplification is important but not nearly as important as preamplification,other than speakers there is no more important peice in a system than the preamp.

Im not trying to bust your balls but this is something that i feel strongly about because ive tried the things that you are thinking about like upgrading my preamp to a more expensive model or a model reccomended by a friend as being the best,ive also been through countless & extremely expensive changes in my source components over the years & all have made very little impact in the overall listening pleasure i get from my system.

Ive ran non tone control preamps ranging in price & (supposed quality) from krell,mcintosh,pass labs,conrad johnson,audio research,cary audio & quite a few others,all of which were big bucks & highly touted as the next best thing to being at a live concert but not a single non tone control preamp made my music sound completely satisfing.

Please dont base your system upon the boasts of audiophiles claiming that the shortest signal path is the best route because it isnt,taking the audiophile approach to music & system building will only lead to listening to a VERY SHORT LIST of audiophile approved recordings.

When building a system the end result(overall sound) is what is important not how you got there:)
 
highfihoney

highfihoney

Audioholic Samurai
mtrycrafts said:
Music is a poor source to use to level match and compare.
HUH! Music should be the only source to compare,i have never met a single person who sits in their listening room smoking a bad one,drinking a beer & listening to test tones.
 
B

beppe61

Junior Audioholic
mtrycrafts said:
beppe61 said:
Following it I will check my speakers and their position in the room.
beppe61 said:
Speaker position is the easiest to correct but not the be all end all solution. You still have the room to contend with and the speakers themselves.
My current digital source is a Pioneer DV-717 dvd player (to be replaced ?).
Could a better source smooth that slightly rasping midrange (distortion?) I am hearing now?

No, it will not affect it. Is this mid-range raspiness on everything you listen to or just on some. If the latter, then it is a recording problem. If you have the issue on everything you listen to, then it is a speaker, room acoustics or a combination. Maybe your mid-range driver is defective???
I am quite sure that with a vinyl source the problems would be fewer.
If, that solves this issue, it is due to the limitations of the vinyl medium rolling off the offending bands, not due to the CD medium.
It could be the way it was mastered to CD though for sure.
Thanks again for the kind and helpful reply.
The mid-range raspiness (could it be distortion perhaps?) I hear is with every CDs.
Actually my speakers are old JBL L16 Decade modified by a technician (substitution of the original broken tweeters with different ones and crossover changes). Maybe he did something wrong.
I will try the amp with other speakers before giving other wrong comments.
It could be that the amp is just fine and the speakers are badly affecting the sound.
Nevertheless I still deem the low bass (<100Hz) a little weak to be authoritative enough.
Maybe I am asking too much from an amp so cheap.

Kind regards,

beppe
 
mulester7

mulester7

Audioholic Samurai
beppe61 said:
mtrycrafts said:


Thanks again for the kind and helpful reply.
The mid-range raspiness (could it be distortion perhaps?) I hear is with every CDs.
Actually my speakers are old JBL L16 Decade modified by a technician (substitution of the original broken tweeters with different ones and crossover changes). Maybe he did something wrong.
I will try the amp with other speakers before giving other wrong comments.
It could be that the amp is just fine and the speakers are badly affecting the sound.
Nevertheless I still deem the low bass (<100Hz) a little weak to be authoritative enough.
Maybe I am asking too much from an amp so cheap.

Kind regards,

beppe
.....Beppe, you said in an earlier post you got the Behringer A500 a month ago....how long have you had the modified JBL speakers?....and, if you had the modified JBL speakers before the Behringer A500, what were you pushing the modified JBL's with before the Behringer?....finally, if all the "if's" are in play so far, how did the modified JBL's sound with whatever you were pushing them with before the Behringer?.....
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Overlord
mulester7 said:
.....Peng, what decibel level would you assign for let's say, "moderate-plus"?....60?....65?....70?.....
I guess we all hear things differently. To me, moderate-plus would be around 72 to 75 from the listening position. I find rock stuff are pretty steady, within 2 dB most of the time. Jazz would vary a little more. Classical music could swing 10 to 15 dB so if you listen to an average level of 90, you could peak at 105, or more in some cases.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Audioholic Slumlord
rolyasm said:
You are a hoot. Unfortunately, I am a professional corn chucker, so Mtrycrafts, you'll have to give me some more info on why to do this. My mamma said I wasn't none to smart.
I am leaving the gains on the Behringer at mid-point and using only the volume control on the Denon to control the volume. I am not sure why it matters whether or not I use test tones to generate a 80 dB reading or a music/movie source. Are you just implying that by using the music as the test material that I may be actually adding a dB or two to one amp or the other, and thereby creating a disadvantage? So set the test tones first and leave the volume knob alone after that?
I might have to find some better test material then. Some of the songs are much quieter than the others.
Roly

I was under the impression that you are trying to compare to amps? I may be wrong on this.
If you are, you need to be sure that when you swap the 2 amps, your levels will be the same. You need test tones to establish initially what volume control setting for each amp will do this.
If they are not equal in level, you are comparing two different volumes and will be biased more to one than the other. This is a prerequisite for a proper comparison. You also need to consider bias controls, or your perception will be biased, unknown to you and your conclusion will be unreliable.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Audioholic Slumlord
beppe61 said:
Thanks again for the kind and helpful reply.
The mid-range raspiness (could it be distortion perhaps?) I hear is with every CDs. Actually my speakers are old JBL L16 Decade modified by a technician (substitution of the original broken tweeters with different ones and crossover changes). Maybe he did something wrong.
beppe61 said:
Did this raspiness start with his replacement and alterations? That would be a clue that he did something wrong.


I will try the amp with other speakers before giving other wrong comments.
It could be that the amp is just fine and the speakers are badly affecting the sound.


Yes, try different speakers of known sound quality. I am willing to bet that your JBL has a problem. By the way, did the tech work on both left and right or just one side? Raspiness from the ones he worked on only in case he only altered one speaker?


Nevertheless I still deem the low bass (<100Hz) a little weak to be authoritative enough.
Maybe I am asking too much from an amp so cheap. Kind regards,
beppe


No, you are not asking too much from that amp, but your speakers. You need a good powered sub. That will give you the punch you seem to be seeking:D
SVS makes some very good ones for a reasonable price. Consider that first before swapping amps.
 
mulester7

mulester7

Audioholic Samurai
mtrycrafts said:
you need to be sure that when you swap the 2 amps, your levels will be the same. You need test tones to establish initially what volume control setting for each amp will do this.
If they are not equal in level, you are comparing two different volumes and will be biased more to one than the other. This is a prerequisite for a proper comparison. You also need to consider bias controls, or your perception will be biased, unknown to you and your conclusion will be unreliable.
.....Mtry, the mumbo-jumbo trickery pulled off by these lemmings you read about and worship is what keeps you at receiver level, congratulations.....99% of those who buy an amp or a pre-amp or even a new receiver, hook it up and immediately look for bring-it-home sweet spots....I'm proud to say nothing you will ever say will change that....people like you talk a few others into eventually trying a level-matching comparison, and thank goodness they quickly see the worthlessness thereof....you claim biased perception....I claim cheap carnival sideshow tricks that accomplish nothing....even audiophiles who really are audiophiles don't lend themselves to this crap....why do you keep wearing us out with it?.....
 
R

rolyasm

Full Audioholic
Hey, I feel like I kind of derailed the main point of this thread. Is there any way just to move my test to another thread and the responses to it? I know this started as a Behringer A500 thread and I should have put it somewhere else.
Sorry. Lets keep this civil gentlemen.
Roly
 

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