Understanding speaker power rating vs sensitivity

[TLS Guy]

This was exactly how I was thinking about going about. The RF7 has both 100W higher power rating (250W) and higher sensitivity. So giving it an amp, rated for 250W, up from my 80W amp and lower sensitivity speaker should in my mind give me a lot of headroom. But I learn now from others, that this is not excactly how it works.

Your amp would headroom, but your speakers at lot less. That small tweeter dome and VC is going to be handling a huge portion of the music program. That is right in the main midrange power band, if you look at the chart I posted. There is a huge difference between crossing at 1.3KHz and 2.3KHz.

In days gone by Klipsch used to use diaphragm compression drivers at the throat of the horn. Then they cheapened it up and just put an MC dome tweeter at the throat of the horn. So they are now not what the marketers want you to think it is. In typical operating mode of those scoundrels it is disguised, and is now what is known as "mutton dressed up as lamb".

 

[ski2xblack]

This was exactly how I was thinking about going about. The RF7 has both 100W higher power rating (250W) and higher sensitivity. So giving it an amp, rated for 250W, up from my 80W amp and lower sensitivity speaker should in my mind give me a lot of headroom.

You are correct. Thr RF-7 is about 4db/w more sensitive than your rp280f. At 1m distance, and given 80 unclipped watts, your current speakers will put out about 107db, the RF-7's will put out 111+db. That's a considerable difference, without an amp upgrade. And, yes, they can take more power, should you deem that necessary.

TLS is incorrect about the RF-7. They indeed use compression drivers, and they're not as fragile as he suggests. (His criticism of Klipsch is valid regarding the lower models.)

 

[Petrolhead]

Your amp would headroom, but your speakers at lot less. That small tweeter dome and VC is going to be handling a huge portion of the music program. That is right in the main midrange power band, if you look at the chart I posted. There is a huge difference between crossing at 1.3KHz and 2.3KHz.

In days gone by Klipsch used to use diaphragm compression drivers at the throat of the horn. Then they cheapened it up and just put an MC dome tweeter at the throat of the horn. So they are now not what the marketers want you to think it is. In typical operating mode of those scoundrels it is disguised, and is now what is known as "mutton dressed up as lamb".

On the spec sheet the RF7 III it states that it has a 1 3/4’’ titanium diaphragm compression driver, and the RP-280F I have now a 1’’ linear travel suspension titanium tweeter.

 

[Petrolhead]

You are correct. Thr RF-7 is about 4db/w more sensitive than your rp280f. At 1m distance, and given 80 unclipped watts, your current speakers will put out about 107db, the RF-7's will put out 111+db. That's a considerable difference, without an amp upgrade. And, yes, they can take more power, should you deem that necessary.

TLS is incorrect about the RF-7. They indeed use compression drivers, and they're not as fragile as he suggests. (His criticism of Klipsch is valid regarding the lower models.)

If this is correct it would be what I want with quite some headroom.

 

[highfigh]

If this is correct it would be what I want with quite some headroom.

But a compression driver is basically a dome tweeter or midrange with a horn that provides the added efficiency, so it has power limitations if overpowered or hard clipping occurs. In a smaller room, headroom isn't hard to achieve. My speakers are 6-1/2" 2-1/2-way with Peerless woofers and Peerless or Vifa soft dome tweeters- they're not as sensitive as the Klipsch, but with the Parasound A24 power amp, SPL and headroom aren't a problem. However, my typical listening level is nowhere near 98dB because I value my hearing, which is much better than average for my age and even though I have been exposed to very high SPL in the past, I carry ear plugs wherever I go and that has allowed me to continue to work in the Audio/Video sales/installation/integration business for as long as I have since people who do this tend to have better credibility if they DON'T answer "Does this sound good?" with "Huh?".

I have cranked the level of my system, more for evaluation than general listening and it can really get up & go. I would argue that great speakers are more important than extreme sensitivity and SPL.

I have posted about it before- I went to a friends' higher-end audio store and while he set up some equipment, he had music playing at a low level. I walked closer to the speakers to listen for dispersion and frequency response, then asked if many people commented about the level of detail they heard at low SPL- he paused and said "come to think of it, they do".

Save your ears- if you want different sound, listen to more speakers. We only get one pair and when they go bad, they aren't replaceable.

BTW- bass makes the system sound louder- loudness isn't the same as intensity.

 

[Petrolhead]

But a compression driver is basically a dome tweeter or midrange with a horn that provides the added efficiency, so it has power limitations if overpowered or hard clipping occurs. In a smaller room, headroom isn't hard to achieve. My speakers are 6-1/2" 2-1/2-way with Peerless woofers and Peerless or Vifa soft dome tweeters- they're not as sensitive as the Klipsch, but with the Parasound A24 power amp, SPL and headroom aren't a problem. However, my typical listening level is nowhere near 98dB because I value my hearing, which is much better than average for my age and even though I have been exposed to very high SPL in the past, I carry ear plugs wherever I go and that has allowed me to continue to work in the Audio/Video sales/installation/integration business for as long as I have since people who do this tend to have better credibility if they DON'T answer "Does this sound good?" with "Huh?".

I have cranked the level of my system, more for evaluation than general listening and it can really get up & go. I would argue that great speakers are more important than extreme sensitivity and SPL.

I have posted about it before- I went to a friends' higher-end audio store and while he set up some equipment, he had music playing at a low level. I walked closer to the speakers to listen for dispersion and frequency response, then asked if many people commented about the level of detail they heard at low SPL- he paused and said "come to think of it, they do".

Save your ears- if you want different sound, listen to more speakers. We only get one pair and when they go bad, they aren't replaceable.

BTW- bass makes the system sound louder- loudness isn't the same as intensity.

This is really a good post. What I am looking for is a bit more intensity and not really loudness. I just always thought loudness and intensity was the same.

I really like when I can feel the sound a bit, not just hear it if you understand what I mean.

Would adding another subwoofer be more beneficial? I have one Klipsch R-115SW

 

[highfigh]

This is really a good post. What I am looking for is a bit more intensity and not really loudness. I just always thought loudness and intensity was the same.

I really like when I can feel the sound a bit, not just hear it if you understand what I mean.

Would adding another subwoofer be more beneficial? I have one Klipsch R-115SW

Intense sounds loud, even if the SPL isn't high, loudness can be considered 'full frequency level', if you want. A small siren can sound incredibly loud, but that's only because its frequency is in the range humans are most sensitive to and that's in the 3100Hz area. We aren't as sensitive to low and high frequencies and if you wondered why some equipment has a loudness control, it's there to increase bass and treble when we listen at low volume level. You know that piercing scream coming from little kids? That's intense. Same for electric guitars when the controls are set in specific ways. A full band with the levels set correctly can sound loud, but the measurable level isn't more than 95dB.

Definition of LOUDNESS

the attribute of a sound that determines the magnitude of the auditory sensation produced and that primarily depends on the amplitude of the sound wave involved… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Loud for the sake of loud isn't the point. Well, it is for some, but most people get over it.

 

[ski2xblack]

@Petrolhead Have you tried DynamicEQ on your Denon? I'm pretty sure it has it. That's loudness compensation EQ. It may put enough meat on the bones that you won't need to upgrade anything.

Highfigh is on target. If your average levels are 65-75 db (with some loudness eq to taste), maintaining *20db for peaks, it will be attainable without high sensitivity speakers or monster amps, and far easier on your ears, both immediately (listening pleasure) and long term (spls causing threshold shifts/hearing damage are avoded).