Dolby Surround & DTS Neural:X "Upmixers" on New Denon X2800 in a 5.1 System

[Trebdp83]

The Limit Mode section of the Web Setup contains the HDMI input port settings that are essential in mixing old and new devices in a system. Older HDMI and HDCP specced devices can have issues when connecting to new HDMI 2.1/HDCP2.3 receivers and TVs. Some streaming devices will output a particular HDR format automatically when connected to certain TVs and some may not want them to do so. Next gen gaming consoles and PCs used for gaming will need particular HDMI 2.1 features set accordingly. The Limit Mode settings can accommodate all of them.

 

[Mike Up]

The Limit Mode section of the Web Setup contains the HDMI input port settings that are essential in mixing old and new devices in a system. Older HDMI and HDCP specced devices can have issues when connecting to new HDMI 2.1/HDCP2.3 receivers and TVs. Some streaming devices will output a particular HDR format automatically when connected to certain TVs and some may not want them to do so. Next gen gaming consoles and PCs used for gaming will need particular HDMI 2.1 features set accordingly. The Limit Mode settings can accommodate all of them.

Interesting. I now remember some of that as it was with the TX-NR6050 as well. I just though you could really screw up things by accidentally hitting one of the options and forgetting about it. One setting can really get lost in all that were offered. I just ran through all of them again on a youtube video, and a shame the basics are not even available through the normal receiver menus.

I also remember you had 2 levels of adjustments, one with the recommended Onkyo password and the other mentioned here which is like a developers or customizers password.

 

[John Lohmann]

Looks like the volume level for each individual input can be setup in by the web app. At least in the RZ70 according to Gene's Youtube video.

I believe the poster was wanting that feature but it's not available in the on-screen menu, as I looked. I have used it on occasion with the phono input on my Denons.

The feature you're referring to in the Onkyos is NOT the same thing as the feature I have been referring to that they removed -- the new feature you're talking about is called MY INPUT VOLUME, and it basically pre-sets a startup volume for each input. The previous INTELLIVOLUME feature allowed you to boost or cut preamp level gain for every source between -12dB and +12dB.

 

[John Lohmann]

Now that you know and understand how the Denon works, why wouldn't you just keep the Denon AVR-X2800H receiver. It's one of the best 7.1 receivers offered today.

Besides, good luck in finding an interested party to buy a now used receiver. Most people don't share our interest of this hobby. Those that could be interested, want to pay less than what a new soundbar would cost for everything, wire, speakers, and receiver.

I gave up trying to sell receivers. Back in the day in the late 90s and early 2000s, I knew many who would want my used, new looking gear. Now a days, no one is interested as this hobby has passed for cheaper, more personal options.

If you can sell it for what it's actually worth, Great. BTW, I grabbed my 'new' X2800H for $679 from Amazon on their Amazon day. Today they want $879 as of now.

I'm being told that I would get a PLETHORA of bites if I put the Denon up for sale -- it's not really that "used" in that we've been using it for, what, two months now? And it's still sold new, so it's not an outdated model.

I would price it accordingly.

 

[John Lohmann]

I'd definitely try the full reset first....

Instead of sending it for a repair, you mean?

 

[John Lohmann]

I mentioned on the other forum to try a reset as I have had to do one on my Denon AVR-2312ci and Onkyo TX-NR6050 after they glitched and didn't operate correctly. Mainly from power going off from a storm or someone hitting an electric pole where electric is on and off in quick cycles before going off completely.

Of course it will reset back to factory settings so you'll lose everything and have to setup as it's a new receiver again. That's what's nice about the Denon, you can backup all settings to a flash Drive. The Onkyo TX-NR6050 and TX-NR6100 don't have a settings backup option.

Good luck in whatever you do.

Thanks; yeah, I wouldn't mind setting everything up again on the Onkyo from scratch, if that fixed the issue. I just didn't think this glitch was something that could be "fixed" with a reset. Seemed like it was a bad HDMI port....

 

[lovinthehd]

Instead of sending it for a repair, you mean?

Yes. Beyond full reset not much the general consumer can do other than send it in....

 

[John Lohmann]

I'm also having some reservations now about keeping the Denon because I've been getting somewhat poor results with the Dolby Surround upmixer on certain 2.0 signals, and I know the source can deliver more because I recall better results when using Pro Logic II in the previous AVR...

Over the weekend, I did a Friday the 13th marathon up to the first six films, and I watched the old discs from my original Paramount From Crystal Lake to Manhattan DVD box set. When I got to part six last night, which is encoded with an "Ultra Stereo" soundtrack, the Denon's Dolby Surround mode kicked on, as it should have, but there was like no surround information, and there should have been, because when my Onkyo decoded this track via PLII, it definitely sounded quasi-aggressive in the rear. This isn't the first two-channel track that played back with such surround-lacking results via the Denon.

 

[John Lohmann]

Yes. Beyond full reset not much the general consumer can do other than send it in....

Yes, I understand that; was just asking for clarification. As I said, the reason why I didn't try a reset at first was because it seemed to me that this port was simply dying; nothing else was wrong with the unit. I don't know what a factory reset could do to fix this distorted setup menu and/or the weird behavior with the front left speaker during the channel trim checks, but if I do put it back in, I'll do it.

 

[lovinthehd]

Yes, I understand that; was just asking for clarification. As I said, the reason why I didn't try a reset at first was because it seemed to me that this port was simply dying; nothing else was wrong with the unit. I don't know what a factory reset could do to fix this distorted setup menu and/or the weird behavior with the front left speaker during the channel trim checks, but if I do put it back in, I'll do it.

It's possible that the hdmi port is just damaged, they aren't the most robust. It could be a glitch solvable by rebooting, that's all....one way to find out before packing it up.

 

[John Lohmann]

It's possible that the hdmi port is just damaged, they aren't the most robust. It could be a glitch solvable by rebooting, that's all....one way to find out before packing it up.

Understood; gonna try it if I reinstall it. Thanks.

 

[John Lohmann]

Earlier in this thread, I was referring to a strange behavior -- I believe I was originally asking Treb about it -- that the X2800 was engaging in, where it would be displaying the sound mode and the upmixer next to it on the display, as it normally did, but when I stopped a Blu-ray (not a DVD), the front panel would drop the "+Upmixer" designation and just show the original core signal (so "Dolby D," "DTS," "DTS-HD" etc.).

Recently, the AVR has been acting differently (I think it had something to do with when I was watching a Fleetwood Mac concert DVD and switched from the Dolby Surround mode to DTS Neural:X as an experiment; I since tried to get the Denon back to defaults by selecting Auto detect under the Pure remote button menus) in that suddenly, the front panel ISN'T dropping the "+Upmixer" designation when a disc is stopped. In other words, now, when I press stop on the disc player, the Denon is continuing to read "DTSHD + Neural:X" or whatever it is.

This, of course, is no big deal, but I just find it weird that the behavior changed; as I said, I attempted to get everything back to "normal" by selecting AUTO under the PURE remote button menus, but it's not acting like it did originally (dropping the "+Upmixer" designation when I press stop on Blu-rays).

There may indeed be some kind of bug in the unit I got; on top of that, the Dolby Surround upmixer doesn't seem to be working all that well compared to the results I used to get using Pro Logic II on DVD 2.0 stereo soundtracks.

 

[lovinthehd]

Earlier in this thread, I was referring to a strange behavior -- I believe I was originally asking Treb about it -- that the X2800 was engaging in, where it would be displaying the sound mode and the upmixer next to it on the display, as it normally did, but when I stopped a Blu-ray (not a DVD), the front panel would drop the "+Upmixer" designation and just show the original core signal (so "Dolby D," "DTS," "DTS-HD" etc.).

Recently, the AVR has been acting differently (I think it had something to do with when I was watching a Fleetwood Mac concert DVD and switched from the Dolby Surround mode to DTS Neural:X as an experiment; I since tried to get the Denon back to defaults by selecting Auto detect under the Pure remote button menus) in that suddenly, the front panel ISN'T dropping the "+Upmixer" designation when a disc is stopped. In other words, now, when I press stop on the disc player, the Denon is continuing to read "DTSHD + Neural:X" or whatever it is.

This, of course, is no big deal, but I just find it weird that the behavior changed; as I said, I attempted to get everything back to "normal" by selecting AUTO under the PURE remote button menus, but it's not acting like it did originally (dropping the "+Upmixer" designation when I press stop on Blu-rays).

There may indeed be some kind of bug in the unit I got; on top of that, the Dolby Surround upmixer doesn't seem to be working all that well compared to the results I used to get using Pro Logic II on DVD 2.0 stereo soundtracks.

Sounds like it's the memory of last used being employed. I wouldn't expect it to change just because I stopped a disc, tho. If you play a codec on a dvd, and it was Dolby Digital, you can add something like Dolby Surround if that's how you generally want to play that codec, or change it back to just the basic Dolby Digital (with the sound mode buttons on the remote) if that's how you generally want to play it.

 

[John Lohmann]

Sounds like it's the memory of last used being employed. I wouldn't expect it to change just because I stopped a disc, tho. If you play a codec on a dvd, and it was Dolby Digital, you can add something like Dolby Surround if that's how you generally want to play that codec, or change it back to just the basic Dolby Digital (with the sound mode buttons on the remote) if that's how you generally want to play it.

Thanks for the reply, Lovin'.

Let me explain what happened exactly, in more detail, because it kind of got buried in a couple of previous pages...

After the back-and-forthing with Treb in this thread and speaking with the Denon/Marantz Tier 2 engineer I got in contact with, it was established that by leaving the upmixers (both Dolby Surround and DTS: Neural) ON all the time, the 5.1 tracks would not be affected in any way playing back on my 5.1 system -- but they WOULD automatically engage when I needed them, such as for 2.0 channel signals (stereo or mono).

So, to reiterate, whenever I watch anything with multichannel content, the Denon shows this on the front:

Dolby Digital: "DD + DSurr"
Dolby TrueHD: "DTHD + DSurr"
Dolby Atmos: "DTHD + DSurr"
Dolby 2.0: "Dolby Surround"

DTS: "DTS + Neural:X"
DTS HD Master: "DTSHD + Neural:X"
DTS 2.0: "DTS Neural:X"

Now, I learned to accept this even though I HATE having to see the "+Upmixer" designation, as it is worth it to me for the upmixers to automatically kick in for stereo or mono stuff, but the original quirk I asked about was this: for whatever reason, when I stopped playback of a Blu-ray or UHD Blu-ray (but NOT a DVD), the Denon's front panel dropped the "+Upmixer" designation and just showed the "Dolby D," "DTS-HD," "Dolby TrueHD" logo/indicator WITHOUT the "+DSurr" or "+Neural."

See what I'm saying? I just thought that was weird, even though it didn't affect performance in any way.

Just recently, the AVR started leaving the "+Upmixer" on the display when I stop all discs, and I simply don't know why -- again, this is not a big deal, but I was just wondering if there's a bug in my unit (I believe I'm up to date with firmware). In other words, when I used to press stop on my Panasonic UHD BD player's remote after watching a Blu-ray or 4K disc, the Denon would drop the "+DSurr" or "+Neural:X" indicator on the front and just show "Dolby D," "DTS-HD" etc. NOW, suddenly, the display is LEAVING the "+DSurr" or "+Neural" indicator when discs are finally stopped.

I tried playing both Dolby and DTS sources and making sure both were switched to the AUTO decode mode as they played, to kind of "reset" the system, but it's still not behaving as it did in the past.

 

[lovinthehd]

Thanks for the reply, Lovin'.

Let me explain what happened exactly, in more detail, because it kind of got buried in a couple of previous pages...

After the back-and-forthing with Treb in this thread and speaking with the Denon/Marantz Tier 2 engineer I got in contact with, it was established that by leaving the upmixers (both Dolby Surround and DTS: Neural) ON all the time, the 5.1 tracks would not be affected in any way playing back on my 5.1 system -- but they WOULD automatically engage when I needed them, such as for 2.0 channel signals (stereo or mono).

So, to reiterate, whenever I watch anything with multichannel content, the Denon shows this on the front:

Dolby Digital: "DD + DSurr"
Dolby TrueHD: "DTHD + DSurr"
Dolby Atmos: "DTHD + DSurr"
Dolby 2.0: "Dolby Surround"

DTS: "DTS + Neural:X"
DTS HD Master: "DTSHD + Neural:X"
DTS 2.0: "DTS Neural:X"

Now, I learned to accept this even though I HATE having to see the "+Upmixer" designation, as it is worth it to me for the upmixers to automatically kick in for stereo or mono stuff, but the original quirk I asked about was this: for whatever reason, when I stopped playback of a Blu-ray or UHD Blu-ray (but NOT a DVD), the Denon's front panel dropped the "+Upmixer" designation and just showed the "Dolby D," "DTS-HD," "Dolby TrueHD" logo/indicator WITHOUT the "+DSurr" or "+Neural."

See what I'm saying? I just thought that was weird, even though it didn't affect performance in any way.

Just recently, the AVR started leaving the "+Upmixer" on the display when I stop all discs, and I simply don't know why -- again, this is not a big deal, but I was just wondering if there's a bug in my unit (I believe I'm up to date with firmware). In other words, when I used to press stop on my Panasonic UHD BD player's remote after watching a Blu-ray or 4K disc, the Denon would drop the "+DSurr" or "+Neural:X" indicator on the front and just show "Dolby D," "DTS-HD" etc. NOW, suddenly, the display is LEAVING the "+DSurr" or "+Neural" indicator when discs are finally stopped.

I tried playing both Dolby and DTS sources and making sure both were switched to the AUTO decode mode as they played, to kind of "reset" the system, but it's still not behaving as it did in the past.

That it deleted the designated upmixer not on a dvd but did on other discs I do find odd. My experience is that it simply keeps using whatever supplemental sound mode (on top of the codec being played) until you change it (but will be per input). Can't say that's happened on any of my Denons that I can think of at least. It is different from how I can setup my Onkyo, tho.

 

[John Lohmann]

That it deleted the designated upmixer not on a dvd but did on other discs I do find odd. My experience is that it simply keeps using whatever supplemental sound mode (on top of the codec being played) until you change it (but will be per input). Can't say that's happened on any of my Denons that I can think of at least. It is different from how I can setup my Onkyo, tho.

It was indeed odd from the beginning; I wish I could find a way to love this AVR, but it just seems quirky and...I don't know....somehow overkill for our needs, given the nature of the upmixers (they were really designed to expand 5.1 content across an Atmos layout, not the way I'm using them).

 

[lovinthehd]

It was indeed odd from the beginning; I wish I could find a way to love this AVR, but it just seems quirky and...I don't know....somehow overkill for our needs, given the nature of the upmixers (they were really designed to expand 5.1 content across an Atmos layout, not the way I'm using them).

Most avrs are full of things you might not need or use, especially if you only have a 5.1 setup...and learning how they work can be....fun? I'm used to Denon to an extent, altho the most recent, a 4700, is a bit different from my older two (3808 and 4520).

 

[John Lohmann]

Most avrs are full of things you might not need or use, especially if you only have a 5.1 setup...and learning how they work can be....fun? I'm used to Denon to an extent, altho the most recent, a 4700, is a bit different from my older two (3808 and 4520).

Unfortunately, that's true.

They still make five-channel receivers, some even without Atmos or DTS:X support (but WITH 4K video passthrough with HDR/Dolby Vision), but based on the research I did via sites like Crutchfield.com, these models are hideously cheap -- from the size and build quality to the rated power. I guess it's just the price you pay, so to speak, if you're not moving into the world of immersive audio. My wish is that at least one manufacturer made a powerhouse of an AVR but without 13 channel support, Atmos/DTS:X, multi-zone capability, Alexa protocols, et al, for some rare customers out there (like me) who wanted a battleship build amp geared more towards 5.1/7.1 channel systems that are still running Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio.

Since posting on this, my unit has been doing additional strange stuff, including showing the wrong upmixer attached to a certain signal -- for example, I pressed stop on a new UHD Blu-ray we just received yesterday, Bad Boys Ride or Die, when we finished watching it last night, and the receiver showed "DTHD + Neural:X" which is NOT correct. During the playing of the film, the display correctly read "DTHD + DSurr," but it added the "+Neural" once the disc was stopped (the soundtrack was a Dolby Atmos mix, so that's why the Denon was decoding the core Dolby TrueHD signal).

This is the second time this has happened, and I don't know how to get the unit back to the previous state, where it showed the correct combination of upmixers and sound modes.

Putting my old unit in and attempting the factory reset is looking more and more tempting, I'll tell you.....

 

[lovinthehd]

Yeah, the 5ch avrs these days are the lowest rung units in all sorts of ways. Economies of scale don't make more than 5.1 channels all that much more expensive as long as they sell enough of them. In order to get the best power supplies/amp sections you generally need the flagship models, altho a mid-range with pre-outs gives a lot of amp flexibility at a reasonable price (compared to buying a pre-pro and amp separately). Then again you do benefit from those flagship models even if using only 5ch of amp. I'm still running 1080p, 7ch (but multiple subs) myself.

As to the change of display at end of disc....since nothing was playing is it particularly relevant? As long as it changes for the next item/codec played....

I do notice some discs use more than one codec (features aside from the body of the film particularly).

Even if you bought a new Onkyo you might not prefer the way it does things compared to old Onkyo....

 

[John Lohmann]

Yeah, the 5ch avrs these days are the lowest rung units in all sorts of ways. Economies of scale don't make more than 5.1 channels all that much more expensive as long as they sell enough of them. In order to get the best power supplies/amp sections you generally need the flagship models, altho a mid-range with pre-outs gives a lot of amp flexibility at a reasonable price (compared to buying a pre-pro and amp separately). Then again you do benefit from those flagship models even if using only 5ch of amp. I'm still running 1080p, 7ch (but multiple subs) myself.

Can't agree more with your assessment of the 5.1 channel situation. As for using a flagship with just five channels, yeah, I thought about this, but beyond the most advanced room correction system and higher power, what would be the benefit of using such an AVR in that scenario? I realize that by not using those extra amp channels you theoretically are easing the headroom loads for the channels you DO use, but in my case, because I wouldn't be using, say, the most advanced type of Dirac or taking advantage of 20 channels, I don't suspect it would be of benefit.

That's one of the roadblocks I faced when I was considering the RZ50 -- I liked the PRODUCT itself in terms of its appearance, size and power, but didn't need what most people buy the model for: Dirac and high channel support.

As to the change of display at end of disc....since nothing was playing is it particularly relevant? As long as it changes for the next item/codec played....

No, it's not particularly relevant or important (I even mentioned in a previous post that this initially was "no big deal"), but it does make me wonder if something is wrong with the unit. It may just be an early symptom of something. Of course, right now, the codecs seem to be working correctly when discs play, but I'd like to know why this is suddenly occurring.

I guess I can run it past my Denon contact.

I do notice some discs use more than one codec (features aside from the body of the film particularly).

Yes; but I normally select the main soundtrack from the setup menu, as it's the "best" audio presentation. No matter what track I choose, though, the Denon is doing this weirdness with the mixed codec/upmixer combos.

Even if you bought a new Onkyo you might not prefer the way it does things compared to old Onkyo....

Oh, I won't prefer the way the new ones do things -- I already know that, which is why I haven't purchased one. I prefer the Onkyo brand over all else, but there's nothing drawing me to one of the new models; they still don't show the sound mode/codec in use alongside the input name on the front panel and they still don't include the IntelliVolume feature (which we talked about ad nauseum in the other thread).Additionally, I'd be right back to the upmixer problem in my situation (trying to figure out how I can get Dolby Surround and DTS Neural to kick in automatically when 2.0 tracks are detected).

It's coming back to putting my old TX-SR605 back into the system and just dealing with the failing onscreen menus until the unit eventually dies altogether.