Dolby Surround & DTS Neural:X "Upmixers" on New Denon X2800 in a 5.1 System

[Mike Up]

I was incorrect, I guess a DD 2.0 signal and DD 5.1 will both use DD + Dolby Surround. I was thinking my source material was DD 2.0 when it turned out to be PCM 2.0 instead.

I think I may have found out why the upmixers are always on. Going back through my Denon AVR-2312ci manual, when using a Dolby Digital 3.0, 4.0, 5.0 or 5.1 audio signal, to use Dolby Prologic IIx, the back surround speakers must be turned on in the setup menu. If turned off, then DD + DPLx is not available for a Dolby Digital 3.0 input signal. So to get Dolby Digital 3.0 signal decoded to higher speaker count, it required a 7.1 speaker setup.

I bet the Dolby Surround and DTS Neural:X upmixers are always available to up mix to "ANY" speaker output configuration, including up mixing a Dolby Digital 3.0 or DTS 3.0 signal to a 5.1 speaker output.

With my Denon AVR-2312ci (2011/2012 model Year), you would only get a 3.0 speaker output from a dolby digital 3.0 signal. A 5.1 speaker configuration left you at a 3.0 speaker output, where a 7.1 speaker configuration let you have a 7.1 speaker output.

 

[John Lohmann]

I don’t know if all new receivers have gone the way of abbreviating Dolby signals. Check the sound mode chart in the manual on page 282 for the applicable modes for two channel signals.

Thanks.

 

[John Lohmann]

I was incorrect, I guess a DD 2.0 signal and DD 5.1 will both use DD + Dolby Surround. I was thinking my source material was DD 2.0 when it turned out to be PCM 2.0 instead.

But that's not how it's been working on my 2800 -- when I watch discs with 2.0 signals, ONLY the name of the upmixer stays on ("Dolby Surr" or "DTS Neural:X"), and when I watch discs with MULTICHANNEL content, the name of the base incoming codec AND upmixer (which is not being used in this instance) is shown ("DD + DSurr" or "DTS + Neural:X").

When I watched Exorcist III the other night, I tried running the DTS-HD MA 2.0 track, and the Denon refused to show just "DTS Neural:X," which it should have -- it showed "DTHD + Neural:X." My engineer contact at Denon is saying that it's possible this showed this way based on how the track was put into a container by the studio, but that's just weird to me.

ALL examples I have been referring to and referencing have been BITSTREAMED signals from my Panasonic UHD BD player to the Denon...no PCM at all.

I think I may have found out why the upmixers are always on. Going back through my Denon AVR-2312ci manual, when using a Dolby Digital 3.0, 4.0, 5.0 or 5.1 audio signal, to use Dolby Prologic IIx, the back surround speakers must be turned on in the setup menu. If turned off, then DD + DPLx is not available for a Dolby Digital 3.0 input signal. So to get Dolby Digital 3.0 signal decoded to higher speaker count, it required a 7.1 speaker setup.

I bet the Dolby Surround and DTS Neural:X upmixers are always available to up mix to "ANY" speaker output configuration, including up mixing a Dolby Digital 3.0 or DTS 3.0 signal to a 5.1 speaker output.

Right -- but that doesn't explain why they're on for 5.1 content on a 5.1 SYSTEM. They shouldn't be. The only reason they should be illuminated or engaged on such a setup (like mine) is for when 2.0 signals need to be "matrixed" properly (I won't call it being "upmixed" in this case).

 

[Trebdp83]

The up mixers are ON by default for Dolby and DTS signals regardless of the channels involved. If you want a straight decode of Dolby or DTS multichannel signals, you will simply have to use the MOVIE button to cycle through the sound modes for a straight decode of multichannel signals after up mixing two channel signals.

If you do not want to fuss with changing sound modes when going from Dolby or DTS 2.0 to 5.1/7.1 signals, try setting the player to output PCM. It should decode the signal and send Multichannel PCM to the receiver. You should be able to up mix PCM 2.0 and also have a straight decode of multichannel PCM after setup and not have to fuss with changing the sound mode whenever the signal goes from 2.0 to 5.1/7.1.

Results will vary of course as many devices cannot output multichannel PCM and different AVRs have different default settings. I can set my Sony UBP-X800M2 to decode everything and output PCM. I can set the Onkyo to up mix PCM 2.0 and output multichannel PCM 5.1/7.1 without the up mixer. While this works, I prefer a bitstream of signals from the disc player and just tap the MOVIE/TV button as needed for different sound modes for different signals as I use the Speaker Virtualizer in my 5.1 setup and Dolby Height Virtualization and DTS Virtual:X are different beasts.

 

[Mike Up]

But that's not how it's been working on my 2800 -- when I watch discs with 2.0 signals, ONLY the name of the upmixer stays on ("Dolby Surr" or "DTS Neural:X"), and when I watch discs with MULTICHANNEL content, the name of the base incoming codec AND upmixer (which is not being used in this instance) is shown ("DD + DSurr" or "DTS + Neural:X").

Ok, I mistyped. I get the same.

When I watched Exorcist III the other night, I tried running the DTS-HD MA 2.0 track, and the Denon refused to show just "DTS Neural:X," which it should have -- it showed "DTHD + Neural:X." My engineer contact at Denon is saying that it's possible this showed this way based on how the track was put into a container by the studio, but that's just weird to me.
.

I don't have any tracks in just DTS-HD 2.0. All 2.0 tracks are in DD.

Right -- but that doesn't explain why they're on for 5.1 content on a 5.1 SYSTEM. They shouldn't be. The only reason they should be illuminated or engaged on such a setup (like mine) is for when 2.0 signals need to be "matrixed" properly (I won't call it being "upmixed" in this case).

With my AVR-2312ci and Dolby Multichannel plus DPL IIx, it will only decode with DPL IIx with a 5.1 input signal so it's simple to turn back surround speakers on and off as needed.

With the new Dolby and DTS upmixers, there are so many combination of input signals and output speaker combinations that the upmixers work with, it was probably easiest and designed to just display and use the upmixer whether it's active or not.

My Denon contact said the upmixer does little with a 5.1 signal input and 5.1 speaker output, looking for a surround parameter to use (the virtualizer). We mainly discussed Dolby.

You could have any of these input signals, 3.0/3.1, 4.0/4.1, 5.0/5.1 or 7.0/7.1 upmixed to any of the speaker output configurations, 4.0/4.1, 5.0/5.1, 7.0/7.1, 5.1.2.

Lots and lots of variables compared to the only one, 5.1 input signal that was upmixed (decoded) to the one 7.1 speaker configuration with the Dolby Prologic IIx decoder.

It at least makes a lot more sense to me after having these discussions.

I did just disengage the Dolby Virtualizer as I didn't care for the over exaggerated rear soundfield that it created over the discrete rear soundfield.

 

[Trebdp83]

The up mixers do not have to be ON all of the time. They simply default to ON. If it is a bother using a 5.1 configuration, one can use a straight decode for 5.1/7.1 signals by cycling through the sound modes after using the up mixers for two channel signals.

While using Dolby Surround for the new up mixer may have been confusing at first, it is good for all speaker configurations. In the case of the 2312CI, Pro Logic and Pro Logic II Cinema/Music/Game would be used for PCM 2.0 and DD 2.0, Pro Logic IIx Cinema/Music/Game for 7.1 and Pro Logic IIz for 5.1.2 which was called 7.1 Height back in the day. There was also Dolby Digital EX. A single Dolby Surround up mixer now cleans things up.

 

[John Lohmann]

I understand the upmixers don't NEED to be on -- or displayed, in my case -- and that you can just switch to the "straight decode" mode, but, for ME, because I don't want to press a button on the remote every time I watch a trailer that switches to 2.0 or watch extra content with 2.0 (or a full film in stereo or mono), I HAVE to keep the "+Upmixer" engaged on the display. This is the ONLY way to get Dolby Surround to activate for 2.0 Dolby sources and DTS Neural to engage for 2.0 DTS sources AUTOMATICALLY when they are sensed by the AVR.

Additionally, I'm not going to switch the output of the player to PCM, as I just prefer a bitstreamed output for a signal to be processed by the AVR.

This is the same thing that was suggested to me back when I was using my Onkyo 605 and running 2.0 DTS-HD MA tracks through it -- because the AVR didn't have the processing horsepower to matrix 2.0 DTS-HD Master signals, I was forced to watch Blu-rays with those types of soundtracks in the receiver's Stereo mode, and this forced dialogue through the front left and right channels (very offputting due to a comb filtering effect). People suggested I switch my player's output to PCM, as it would allow me to use the Onkyo's matrixing modes, but if the solution is to set a player's output to PCM to correct for these stumbling blocks, I can't help but feel it's not worth it. I've been bitstreaming data from DVD and BD players the whole time I've been engrossed in the hobby, and suddenly, because things have gotten too complicated, I have to PCM it?

There needs to be a solution like the old Onkyos offered (I don't believe Denon ever offered such a menu on their old AVRs, according to my Denon contact at least) where a Listening Mode Preset could be set for EVERY INDIVIDUAL CODEC -- so you could tell the AVR how to handle Dolby Digital, DTS, two-channel, Atmos, DTS:X, etc.

 

[John Lohmann]

I don't have any tracks in just DTS-HD 2.0. All 2.0 tracks are in DD.

Unfortunately, I do have a lot of Blu-rays -- mainly older titles put out by Scream/Shout Factory -- that come with 2.0 Master Audio tracks, either stereo or mono. And we watch them often. A lot of my DVDs have 2.0 Dolby Stereo tracks.

I did just disengage the Dolby Virtualizer as I didn't care for the over exaggerated rear soundfield that it created over the discrete rear soundfield.

I keep the Virtualizer off because we have in-ceiling surrounds, and this doesn't really work unless you're running ear-level speakers; also, with the Virtualizer on, it was explained to me, the Dolby Surround upmixer does in fact affect the way the base 5.1 tracks on non-Atmos titles are played.

 

[Trebdp83]

I think all of your options have been put out there concerning use of the X2800. The least offensive setting for you seems to be leaving the up mixers ON for everything and just dealing with it until you get another receiver. Dolby and DTS do things a bit differently in different receivers. Pick your poison.

 

[John Lohmann]

I think all of your options have been put out there concerning use of the X2800. The least offensive setting for you seems to be leaving the up mixers ON for everything and just dealing with it until you get another receiver. Dolby and DTS do things a bit differently in different receivers. Pick your poison.

I was merely responding to your last post about how they don't necessarily have to be left on -- it seems in my case, it's the only way to get the upmixers to process and matrix 2.0 content properly and automatically.

I also think -- and I meant to mention this in a previous post -- that the "+Upmixer" designation on the screen is definitely a "Denon thing," in that I've seen images of some of their older AVRs back in the Pro Logic II days, and the displays always seemed to read "DOLBY DIGITAL + PL II CINEMA" or something along those lines. This whole "+Upmixer" or "+Matrixer" thing is something this particular brand does on the display, but this was my first time owning a product from Denon and I didn't know how they worked.

As you and I have been discussing, I loathe the way in which Denon abbreviates everything on these AVR displays -- on the models under the 4800 -- but on the flip side, I don't like the way the Onkyos force you to call up the sound mode you're in by pressing the info button on the remote. Nothing is intuitive or automated it seems with these new units.

It is for these reasons I have priced out a repair of my Onkyo 605, and the most local authorized Onkyo shop quoted me $140 to look at it (plus the shipping I'd have to pay). I was also advised by 11 Trading Company, apparently in control of Voxx/Sharp and the syndicate that owns Onk/Integra/Pioneer/Klipsch et al, that I can try a complete factory reset of the 605, which I may end up doing before I attempt the repair option.

I'd still have to find someone to buy the Denon 2800 to offset the cost of that AVR (we purchased it for a little under 1K via Amazon).

 

[lovinthehd]

I'd definitely try the full reset first....

 

[Trebdp83]

It's a pisser when good features get left behind. I'd also try a factory reset of the Onkyo and wouldn't spend the money on repair of an older unit these days.

 

[Mike Up]

Now that you know and understand how the Denon works, why wouldn't you just keep the Denon AVR-X2800H receiver. It's one of the best 7.1 receivers offered today.

Besides, good luck in finding an interested party to buy a now used receiver. Most people don't share our interest of this hobby. Those that could be interested, want to pay less than what a new soundbar would cost for everything, wire, speakers, and receiver.

I gave up trying to sell receivers. Back in the day in the late 90s and early 2000s, I knew many who would want my used, new looking gear. Now a days, no one is interested as this hobby has passed for cheaper, more personal options.

If you can sell it for what it's actually worth, Great. BTW, I grabbed my 'new' X2800H for $679 from Amazon on their Amazon day. Today they want $879 as of now.

 

[Mike Up]

I mentioned on the other forum to try a reset as I have had to do one on my Denon AVR-2312ci and Onkyo TX-NR6050 after they glitched and didn't operate correctly. Mainly from power going off from a storm or someone hitting an electric pole where electric is on and off in quick cycles before going off completely.

Of course it will reset back to factory settings so you'll lose everything and have to setup as it's a new receiver again. That's what's nice about the Denon, you can backup all settings to a flash Drive. The Onkyo TX-NR6050 and TX-NR6100 don't have a settings backup option.

Good luck in whatever you do.

 

[Trebdp83]

Network connectable Onkyo receivers do have a backup feature that can be accessed from the Web setup. I have my current configuration backed up and have uploaded it after a factory reset.

 

[Mike Up]

Network connectable Onkyo receivers do have a backup feature that can be accessed from the Web setup. I have my current configuration backed up and have uploaded it after a factory reset.
View attachment 69479

Ok, didn't remember that on the 6050, never used web control for 6100.

 

[Trebdp83]

There are features available in the Web Setup that are not available in the onscreen settings menu but you’d never know it reading that silly manual.

 

[Mike Up]

There are features available in the Web Setup that are not available in the onscreen settings menu but you’d never know it reading that silly manual.

What other features?

 

[isolar8001]

There are features available in the Web Setup that are not available in the onscreen settings menu but you’d never know it reading that silly manual.

Yep, and don't forget to tell them you have to log in with the username and pass of "ciuser" or you only see half of what's really there.
That's for all Onkyo/Pioneer/Integra.

 

[Mike Up]

Looks like the volume level for each individual input can be setup in by the web app. At least in the RZ70 according to Gene's Youtube video.

I believe the poster was wanting that feature but it's not available in the on-screen menu, as I looked. I have used it on occasion with the phono input on my Denons.