Dolby Surround & DTS Neural:X "Upmixers" on New Denon X2800 in a 5.1 System

[Trebdp83]

The Dolby Surround up mixer is ON by default when playing Dolby signals but you can continue to press the MOVIE button to get to the straight decode of it without the up mixer.

So, if playing a DTHD 5.1 or 7.1 disc, it will display as DTHD + DSurr by default. Just cycle through the sound modes using the MOVIE button and you should be able to select a straight decode of DTHD and have it display on the front panel.

It can be annoying to see the + DSurr on the display. Even more annoying is the abbreviated display on all new Denon models below the X4800H. But, I digress.

Do not worry about the up mixers doing anything to the sound as long as the Speaker Virtualizer is OFF. If using a straight decode of 7.1 signals, the Surround Back information is folded into the Surround channels and is not lost.

 

[John Lohmann]

The Dolby Surround up mixer is ON by default when playing Dolby signals but you can continue to press the MOVIE button to get to the straight decode of it without the up mixer.

Yes, I'm aware. But what I was saying was that when I do that, the upmixers won't automatically engage for TWO-CHANNEL content, which is what I am after.

So, if playing a DTHD 5.1 or 7.1 disc, it will display as DTHD + DSurr by default. Just cycle through the sound modes using the MOVIE button and you should be able to select a straight decode of DTHD and have it display on the front panel.

Again, see above; the only reason I am forced to keep the upmixers on is because I want them to engage with 2.0-channel content, without me having to press the MOVIE button every time we watch a disc with a two-channel soundtrack.

It can be annoying to see the + DSurr on the display. Even more annoying is the abbreviated display on all new Denon models below the X4800H. But, I digress.

Totally agree -- I recall seeing a post of yours in this forum where you mentioned to someone that he should "save his complaints for the Denon" (he purchased), after which you went on to talk about how annoying the abbreviations on the Denons are. I completely agree. I HATE seeing "DTHD" and "DTSHD" instead of the way my old Onkyo did it with "Dolby TrueHD" and "DTS-HD MSTR;" it's something I merely can't get used to with this new model.

Do not worry about the up mixers doing anything to the sound as long as the Speaker Virtualizer is OFF. If using a straight decode of 7.1 signals, the Surround Back information is folded into the Surround channels and is not lost.

Understood about the 7.1 tracks folding down into our 5.1 array; it's the way we've been running a system now for decades. I appreciate your confirmation regarding the upmixers and not worrying about them if the Virtualizer is off.

Another quick question: I threw in an old Blu-ray of No Country For Old Men last night, and it contains an Uncompressed PCM 5.1 soundtrack. The Denon read "Multi In," which is correct for such a signal (my Onkyo used to read "Multich"), but it DIDN'T automatically engage an upmixer -- do you know why? I assumed with EVERY signal decoded by the Denon it's going to use an upmixer by default....is this because it wasn't a Dolby or DTS bitstreamed signal?

 

[Trebdp83]

Unfortunately using a straight decode of a 5.1 track and then switching to a 2.0 track means Stereo mode is the default. Multichannel PCM signals default to Multi Ch In while ALL Dolby signals save for Atmos will default to using the Dolby Surround up mixer and DTS signals will default to DTS Neural:X save for DTS:X.The default sound mode for a given signal is indicated by a black circle on the charts I posted on the previous page.

I’m frequently pressing the MOVIE/TV button on my Onkyo remote controller as I change input sources and signals. It is what it is.

 

[John Lohmann]

Unfortunately using a straight decode of a 5.1 track and then switching to a 2.0 track means Stereo mode is the default. Multichannel PCM signals default to Multi Ch In while ALL Dolby signals save for Atmos will default to using the Dolby Surround up mixer and DTS signals will default to DTS Neural:X save for DTS:X.The default sound mode for a given signal is indicated by a black circle on the charts I posted on the previous page.

I’m frequently pressing the MOVIE/TV button on my Onkyo remote controller as I change input sources and signals. It is what it is.

I think there's a bit of a disconnect at this point with regard to what I'm saying I understand and what you keep trying to explain; no worries -- I DO understand how the straight decode works, but what I am trying to explain is that by leaving the upmixers on all the time, the AVR then automatically engages when I want it to (for 2.0 signals) instead of me having to press that MOVIE button on the Denon's remote. That's all I'm saying.

If I switch to a straight decode -- say, like Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD without an upmixer -- then I will have to press that MOVIE button every time I play a 2.0 soundtrack, and that's inconvenient to me because we do a lot of mixed format viewing. I understand that you feel like "it is what it is" with your Onkyo, but this is a dealbreaker for me; this is why I kept stressing to you (and others) that I need to know whether the upmixers are affecting 5.1 signals on my setup or not, because I need to leave the upmixers ON so they automatically engage for two-channel stuff.

Thanks for your confirmation regarding Multi In and PCM; are you suggesting the Multi In mode didn't use an upmixer because there's no Dolby or DTS encoding attached to a PCM stream?

I'd also like to pick your brain about the way your Onkyo works in terms of the upmixers, in case I decide to sell the Denon and move to my once-favorite brand, but I fear that I may ask about scenarios you do not engage in (with regard to using the upmixers for certain sources).

 

[Trebdp83]

There is no disconnect. I get that you want to up mix two channel signals but do NOT want the up mixers to alter multichannel signals. They will NOT do so if using a 5.1 speaker configuration and the Speaker Virtualizer is OFF.

Multichannel PCM signals will not trigger the Dolby or DTS up mixers because they contain no info for Dolby or DTS to flag but you can apply either up mixer to multichannel PCM signals.

I’ve used all kinds of signals with my Onkyo so ask me anything about it.

 

[John Lohmann]

There is no disconnect. I get that you want to up mix two channel signals but do NOT want the up mixers to alter multichannel signals. They will NOT do so if using a 5.1 speaker configuration and the Speaker Virtualizer is OFF.

Multichannel PCM signals will not trigger the Dolby or DTS up mixers because they contain no info for Dolby or DTS to flag but you can apply either up mixer to multichannel PCM signals.

I’ve used all kinds of signals with my Onkyo so ask me anything about it.

Thanks for all the confirmation and understanding, brother.

I get the way the PCM decoding works now.

I am cooking up questions about your Onk -- thanks again.

 

[Mark E. Long]

Just a thought since you have ceiling speaker already you could add real surrounds and go 5-1-2 would seen to fix some of the issues I would think .

 

[John Lohmann]

Just a thought since you have ceiling speaker already you could add real surrounds and go 5-1-2 would seen to fix some of the issues I would think .

Thanks for your input, Mark.

We definitely considered that, as it was suggested by more than one person. The issue is that we simply can't add bed-level surrounds to this setup based on the room layout and couch positions; it has to stay 5.1 in this house, at least (possibly 7.1, as we have extra in-ceiling speakers that can be moved to behind our listening position, but still in the ceiling, of course).

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Just a thought since you have ceiling speaker already you could add real surrounds and go 5-1-2 would seen to fix some of the issues I would think .

Another problem is that depending on where the current surrounds are, they might function very well as overhead speakers. A single pair of overhead speakers should be just in front of the lister by roughly a couple of feet.

 

[John Lohmann]

Another problem is that depending on where the current surrounds are, they might function very well as overhead speakers. A single pair of overhead speakers should be just in front of the lister by roughly a couple of feet.

The way the room is set up, these in-ceiling surrounds would still be pretty much right over our heads if we used them for Atmos channels (adding the ear-level bed surrounds).

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

The way the room is set up, these in-ceiling surrounds would still be pretty much right over our heads if we used them for Atmos channels (adding the ear-level bed surrounds).

Ok that would probably be close enough. For some reason in my mind they were farther back.

 

[John Lohmann]

Ok that would probably be close enough. For some reason in my mind they were farther back.

Oh; I was thinking this WOULDN'T be an ideal setup. So if the bed-level/ear-level surrounds were added, the two overheads could be pretty much right above the listening position?

If we went with a standard 7.1 setup with the two extra in-ceiling surrounds, yes, those would be further back.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Oh; I was thinking this WOULDN'T be an ideal setup. So if the bed-level/ear-level surrounds were added, the two overheads could be pretty much right above the listening position?

If we went with a standard 7.1 setup with the two extra in-ceiling surrounds, yes, those would be further back.

Well not ideal but close enough to the spec.

 

[John Lohmann]

There is no disconnect. I get that you want to up mix two channel signals but do NOT want the up mixers to alter multichannel signals. They will NOT do so if using a 5.1 speaker configuration and the Speaker Virtualizer is OFF.

Multichannel PCM signals will not trigger the Dolby or DTS up mixers because they contain no info for Dolby or DTS to flag but you can apply either up mixer to multichannel PCM signals.

I’ve used all kinds of signals with my Onkyo so ask me anything about it.

Okay Treb,

Had a moment to get back to you regarding the Onkyo questions (I'm pretty straight on the other stuff you answered for me regarding the upmixers and how they're implemented in a 5.1 setup)....

Alright, so, as we were discussing on the Denons, I could leave the upmixers engaged with all content so that Dolby Surround automatically kicks on for two-channel Dolby content and DTS Neural kicks on for two-channel DTS content (even though I hate seeing the "+Upmixer" on the display next to the core signal). The question now becomes, how does this all work on the newer Onkyos?

I know the Onkyos, for a few generations now, don't allow you to see the codec/sound mode information along with the input name at the same time on the front panel -- the biggest thing that drove me to a Denon, and I was a rabid Onkyo fan before that -- so how are the upmixers and sound modes applied via the remotes' "MOVIE/TV" selector button?

In other words, if I watch a disc that has a two-channel DTS Master Audio soundtrack and I want Neural:X to matrix it so dialogue goes into the center, etc., how do the newer Onkyos handle this? Do you press the MOVIE/TV button until you see "Neural:X" or, in the case of 2.0 Dolby signals, "DSurr" on the display? If so, will the Onkyo remember to use this for the next 2.0 signal that comes in?

To this end, what happens when 5.1 tracks are played on my 5.1 system on these models? Will the AVR remember to kick back into the proper "Dolby TrueHD," "DTS-HD MSTR," "Dolby D" or "DTS" mode without applying the upmixer? Is this confirmed by pressing the remote's INFO button?

The biggest issue for me is the fact that Voxx/Sharp/Premium Audio Company or whatever they're calling themselves now removed the way the Onkyo displays show information on them, specifically with regard to codec/sound mode. In the past, you were able to see the name of the input ("DVD," "Cable Box," etc.) AND the surround codec in use ("DTS," "Dolby D," etc.) AT THE SAME TIME. These new models only show the input name and volume number constantly, unless you press the "i" button on the remote, after which you could scroll through different layouts until you see the sound mode being used. However, the screen goes back to the input name and volume after a few seconds...that's absolutely ridiculous, and something so many Onkyo fans have complained about. There was even a petition on AVS signed to get the company to fix this through a firmware update, and I have spoken via email to at least two reps from Premium Audio about it...I don't think they even care.

What's sad is that there is SO much room on the AVRs' front displays -- especially the RZ models -- to incorporate both the input name AND codec, so I don't know why they dropped this. They also removed the helpful "IntelliVolume" input leveling system, which was a big head-scratcher; I mean, Denon still offers this on their models, though they call it "Input Level Adjust" or some such name.

 

[Trebdp83]

Have to get familiar with system behavior again after being on vacation for a long time. I’ll also have to turn the Speaker Virtualizer OFF as Dolby Atmos metadata processing changes things a bit when switching source signals. I’ll be back.

Front panel displays from Denon and Onkyo aren’t great these days. But, I’ll take the new Onkyo display over the abbreviated display on most new Denon models. Just look at the X2800H compared to the older 2808CI. Actually, the 2808CI was better looking all the way around.

 

[John Lohmann]

Have to get familiar with system behavior again after being on vacation for a long time. I’ll also have to turn the Speaker Virtualizer OFF as Dolby Atmos metadata processing changes things a bit when switching source signals. I’ll be back.

Front panel displays from Denon and Onkyo aren’t great these days. But, I’ll take the new Onkyo display over the abbreviated display on most new Denon models. Just look at the X2800H compared to the older 2808CI. Actually, the 2808CI was better looking all the way around. View attachment 69228
View attachment 69229

Thanks brother.

I totally agree about the displays, and believe me....I HATE looking at my 2800's front readout when checking to see if it's processing codecs properly. It's almost making me want to put my old Onk 605 back in, just for that...

One thing I don't care for on the old Denons are the knobs -- they made them look better on these newer models, though I prefer the one volume knob approach by Onkyo.

 

[Trebdp83]

So, what I found using my Onkyo with a 5.1 speaker configuration with the Speaker Virtualizer OFF and different source devices is that a straight decode of two channel Dolby or DTS signals will result in a straight decode of Dolby and DTS multichannel signals as well when making the switch to a multichannel track. This is true of both Dolby and DTS signals. But, up mix two channel signals and the up mixer stays on when switching to multichannel signals. Interestingly, this did not apply to DSD signals and multichannel tracks from SACDs were not up mixed if they were previously played with a straight decode even if an up mixer was applied to Dolby or DTS signals. Switch tracks on a movie disc from Dolby to DTS and the last mode used for each will be used for playback.

I also checked for any sound changes when applying Dolby Surround or DTS Neural:X to 5.1 or 7.1 signals using the 5.1 speaker configuration with the Speaker Virtualizer OFF. Because there are no physical or virtual height speakers in use, there is no change to the sound of multichannel tracks when using the 5.1 speaker configuration. It didn't matter if Dolby Surround or DTS Neural:X was in use playing multichannel Dolby, DTS or even DSD signals. Turn the Speaker Virtualizer ON, as I do, and there are different characteristics and sound concerning the up mixers. I often press the MOVIE/TV and MUSIC buttons to change the sound mode used for various source devices and their signals.

 

[John Lohmann]

So, what I found using my Onkyo with a 5.1 speaker configuration with the Speaker Virtualizer OFF and different source devices is that a straight decode of two channel Dolby or DTS signals will result in a straight decode of Dolby and DTS multichannel signals as well when making the switch to a multichannel track. This is true of both Dolby and DTS signals. But, up mix two channel signals and the up mixer stays on when switching to multichannel signals. Interestingly, this did not apply to DSD signals and multichannel tracks from SACDs were not up mixed if they were previously played with a straight decode even if an up mixer was applied to Dolby or DTS signals. Switch tracks on a movie disc from Dolby to DTS and the last mode used for each will be used for playback.

I also checked for any sound changes when applying Dolby Surround or DTS Neural:X to 5.1 or 7.1 signals using the 5.1 speaker configuration with the Speaker Virtualizer OFF. Because there are no physical or virtual height speakers in use, there is no change to the sound of multichannel tracks when using the 5.1 speaker configuration. It didn't matter if Dolby Surround or DTS Neural:X was in use playing multichannel Dolby, DTS or even DSD signals. Turn the Speaker Virtualizer ON, as I do, and there are different characteristics and sound concerning the up mixers. I often press the MOVIE/TV and MUSIC buttons to change the sound mode used for various source devices and their signals.

Thanks Treb -- looking it over now.....

 

[John Lohmann]

First of all, thanks again, my friend...I truly appreciate you taking the time to make these observations.

So, what I found using my Onkyo with a 5.1 speaker configuration with the Speaker Virtualizer OFF and different source devices is that a straight decode of two channel Dolby or DTS signals will result in a straight decode of Dolby and DTS multichannel signals as well when making the switch to a multichannel track.

Okay, so you DON'T have to press the MOVIE/TV button on the Onkyo's remote when a two-channel track is being played, whether DTS or Dolby, in order to engage D Surr or Neural:X? It will do this automatically, and then also switch back to a multichannel decode for multichannel Dolby and DTS?

Because the ONLY way this works on the Denon is to leave the upmixers engaged on the display all the time, as we have been discussing.

This is true of both Dolby and DTS signals. But, up mix two channel signals and the up mixer stays on when switching to multichannel signals.

Oh, okay -- I think you just answered my question above. Damn....if I am reading this right, then the upmixers, unfortunately, also stay on when multichannel content plays (notably right after two-channel content), even though they may not be affecting the surround track's sound.

So, this is just like the Denon, then....Jesus Christ....is this just a Dolby/DTS thing?

Interestingly, this did not apply to DSD signals and multichannel tracks from SACDs were not up mixed if they were previously played with a straight decode even if an up mixer was applied to Dolby or DTS signals. Switch tracks on a movie disc from Dolby to DTS and the last mode used for each will be used for playback.

Well, I wouldn't be spinning any SACDs in this system (heck, my Panasonic player doesn't even support em), but what you said at the end there concerns me very much -- the last used mode for each is used for DTS and Dolby. It sounds like it works the same way as with the Denons...

I also checked for any sound changes when applying Dolby Surround or DTS Neural:X to 5.1 or 7.1 signals using the 5.1 speaker configuration with the Speaker Virtualizer OFF. Because there are no physical or virtual height speakers in use, there is no change to the sound of multichannel tracks when using the 5.1 speaker configuration. It didn't matter if Dolby Surround or DTS Neural:X was in use playing multichannel Dolby, DTS or even DSD signals. Turn the Speaker Virtualizer ON, as I do, and there are different characteristics and sound concerning the up mixers. I often press the MOVIE/TV and MUSIC buttons to change the sound mode used for various source devices and their signals.

Gotcha -- thanks for confirming the sound doesn't change with the Virtualizer OFF.

At this point, Treb, I truly am considering trying to sell this Denon and going back to my old Onkyo 605 because it was SO much easier to operate day to day, without having to see weird upmixer indicators on the screen or worrying about a last-used decoder....I'd have to find someone willing to buy the X2800 to help offset the loss we would take, as we're long beyond the return window via Amazon.

It doesn't look like Onkyo is the way to go, now, either....and that's a shame because they were my defacto go-to brand. It seems like these new AVRs, beyond the basic models still out there that don't do Atmos (and which unfortunately come with ridiculously cheap build quality and low power ratings), are really not designed for simple setups like I'm running. We only want/need/can support 5.1 in this current home/room, and the majority of our disc collection is DVD and Blu-ray titles with simple 5.1/7.1 surround tracks....it's almost like it doesn't make sense to buy one of these new receivers in this scenario because they're just overkill.

The thing is, I'd have to deal with the shortcomings of my old Onkyo if I reinstall it -- an almost-dead HDMI out port, a dead original remote, no way to matrix or process two-channel DTS-HD content -- even though it was SO much easier to use compared to the Denon (and sounded better, too).

Something else I wanted to ask you about the Onkyo -- first of all, which model do you own again? Also, can you give me an idea of what the front panel of the AVR reads depending on what's being processed? In other words, if you're watching something in TrueHD, what does the Onkyo read when you press the "I" button on the remote? Does it say "DTHD" or does it indicate the UPMIXER ("DSur")?

Is there any way you can maybe take some pics of what the display looks like when you call up the playback info?

 

[Trebdp83]

I actually have three Onkyos. There is also a Yamaha that we will not discuss here. I have an Onkyo TX-NR777, TX-NR696 and TX-NR6050. The 777 turned itself ON this morning and displayed an available Firmware Update. So, I ran it, wirelessly. I fear no firmware update or wireless connection.

The TX-NR6050 is in the Main room and is used most of the time. For any signal using a straight decode, pressing the info button will display the incoming signal and input channels in the left side of the info box. The right side of the info box will display the selected sound mode and the output channels.

When using a straight decode of a DD 5.1 signal with a 5.1 speaker configuration, the input info will display Dolby Audio - DD 5.1 and Output will display Dolby Audio - DD 5.1. Use the Dolby Surround up mixer and the Output displays Dolby Audio - Surr.