Electric Vehicles?

[Mikado463]

Years ago, I remember some economist said that there's a price for gasoline (or anything else) that people would complain about, but still pay. And there's a higher price that would cause people to start changing what they drive. Evidently, premium gas at $4 a gallon isn't yet high enough where you live.

I hit my gas price threshold during the summer of 2022. I don't remember what that price was anymore, just that it seemed too high. And, that it didn't seem like it would go back down. That's a good part of what pushed me into buying an EV.

the trouble with your EV cost comparo currently is that in most cases the economics for EV's are only favorable for 'at home charging', take an extended trip with multiple on the road charges and all bets are off. That is but one reason why I'm not ready yet..........

 

[Swerd]

the trouble with your EV cost comparo currently is that in most cases the economics for EV's are only favorable for 'at home charging', take an extended trip with multiple on the road charges and all bets are off.

Any rational cost comparison combines both at home charging as well as road trip charging. Trying to keep them separate seems like working hard to avoid the obvious.

That is but one reason why I'm not ready yet..........

I get it, you're not ready yet. You may very well be among the last internal combustion engine users around. But trying to convince others that your own preferences are mainstream is wearing thin.

 

[Mikado463]

I get it, you're not ready yet. You may very well be among the last internal combustion engine users around.

too funny, safe to say , right now I'm still in the majority Now, 5-10 years from now ??

But trying to convince others that your own preferences are mainstream is wearing thin.

Don't know where you're thinking I'm trying to convince anyone ? Rather, during transitional times like this open discussion on all fronts is the best way to look at things IMO ..........

 

[NINaudio]

I get it, you're not ready yet. You may very well be among the last internal combustion engine users around. But trying to convince others that your own preferences are mainstream is wearing thin.

Hey, I'm not ready yet either. There are no good trackable ev's in the $50-60k range and under right now.

And to be fair, car buying percentages still show an overwhelming number of people buying gas cars and not ev's, so I don't think you can say that buying gas ISN'T mainstream right now.

 

[Trebdp83]

Can’t think of an electric car that isn’t delivered by a diesel powered truck to a location that doesn’t partially, if not entirely get its electricity from fossil fuels. If electric car adoption increased ten fold on each coast, coal mining in the east would increase and they’d probably have to put up a few more nuclear power plants on the west coast.

I guess they could just burn more fossil fuels in China to build more windmill parts and solar panels and burn more diesel to get em’ over here on the slow boat. Once here, they can get on diesel powered trucks and be shipped off to their new homes to suck up real estate. Somehow, all of this is supposed to save the planet as more consumers drive to Wal-Mart in electric cars and fill them with bottles, clothing, containers and appliances all made from plastic.

 

[j_garcia]

Can’t think of an electric car that isn’t delivered by a diesel powered truck to a location that doesn’t partially, if not entirely get its electricity from fossil fuels. If electric car adoption increased ten fold on each coast, coal mining in the east would increase and they’d probably have to put up a few more nuclear power plants on the west coast.

I guess they could just burn more fossil fuels in China to build more windmill parts and solar panels and burn more diesel to get em’ over here on the slow boat. Once here, they can get on diesel powered trucks and be shipped off to their new homes to suck up real estate. Somehow, all of this is supposed to save the planet as more consumers drive to Wal-Mart in electric cars and fill them with bottles, clothing, containers and appliances all made from plastic.

EVERY gas car is delivered by diesel ships and trucks, so that is really not a "negative", it is more of a wash. I am not sure why people keep mentioning it. If the cars that are being delivered produce zero emissions, there is still a net benefit to the planet. Delivery systems will change over to hybrid/electric also, but that will take longer than consumer level vehicles. The infrastructure and changes for electric delivery vehicles is more complex.

 

[Trebdp83]

Right, but there seems to be an attitude out there that an electric car somehow automatically means green all the way around. But, if an electric car is driven day and night and charged often at stations or homes that get their electricity from natural gas, a nuclear plant or coal, how is it green? Run the numbers against a new gas powered car driven moderately and you may find the electric car to be more polluting and both are using up finite resources. Oh, and concerning batteries, lithium is also a f#%kin' finite resource and electric car batteries aren't exactly efficient or easily recycled. There are trade offs and electric cars are not the miracle cure for our problems.

 

[Mikado463]

EVERY gas car is delivered by diesel ships and trucks,

Whoa........ not so fast there cowboy, did you forget about the railroads ? Basically a hybrid version of propulsion (diesel/electric), that's been around for over 80 years !

If the cars that are being delivered produce zero emissions, there is still a net benefit to the planet.

While that is the narrative we are being fed, I for one think it will take some time to prove this true. But I hope so !!

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

For me(and I think many others), there’s just nothing that an EV solves. All the vehicles in my household are relatively new, and paid off. The investment in purchasing an EV, adding the proper electrical service, charger and added KW to my monthly bill just don’t make sense. Our house is heated by an electric boiler which heats the slab of the house. While efficient, winters here can be brutal and it’s costly enough without charging my EV that would probably need to be charged after a 15mi trip to town in -20f weather. My daily driver is a diesel pickup, and while it’s not a “work truck” I regularly haul things in it, and also tow a 7500lb camper. Sometimes if we decide to take the boat out of the lift and haul it to a different lake, my truck tows it. I’ve also not seen compelling evidence that harvesting lithium to make these batteries is anything but harmful to the earth, and surrounding areas. Not to mention, afaik, the ability for replacing them or recycling them is almost non existent. Also, we live in a semi rural area and the support for charging isn’t good here. We did have a charging station but it was removed for some odd reason.
If EV’s work for some people, that’s great. They just don’t fit my use case or lifestyle, and widespread adoption seems mythical at best.

 

[Swerd]

Hey, I'm not ready yet either. There are no good trackable ev's in the $50-60k range and under right now.

I bought mine with the belief that prices will continue to rise. Fair to assume – but not a guaranteed certainty.

And to be fair, car buying percentages still show an overwhelming number of people buying gas cars and not ev's, so I don't think you can say that buying gas ISN'T mainstream right now.

Those percentages are a snapshot of what's happening now. They don't predict the future. The shift to EV was very low at first, and is now happening faster. I believe that pace will continue to accelerate, especially with the continued high gas prices.

 

[j_garcia]

Whoa........ not so fast there cowboy, did you forget about the railroads ? Basically a hybrid version of propulsion (diesel/electric), that's been around for over 80 years !

Nope I know trains are hybrid and have been around that long so didn't mention it; figured that is common knowledge. Just opening a new can of worms for the fact that it HAS been around that long.

While that is the narrative we are being fed, I for one think it will take some time to prove this true. But I hope so !!

It isn't going to come quickly, as with anything of this magnitude. Gas cars didn't come quickly and we know some of the earliest cars were electric and didn't catch on due to tech of the time. Switching to electricity will be something similar to what oil has now and will bring the same issues faced by gas back in the day. To me, no emissions from the vehicles is a good start, but is not the only answer.

 

[Mikado463]

I bought mine with the belief that prices will continue to rise. Fair to assume – but not a guaranteed certainty.
Those percentages are a snapshot of what's happening now. They don't predict the future. The shift to EV was very low at first, and is now happening faster. I believe that pace will continue to accelerate, especially with the continued high gas prices.

good points to which I'm in agreement. Another reason I'm not ready to jump on board yet is the evolving battery tech. My thinking is ten years from now it will look totally different and a vehicle bought today will have what kind of residual ??

 

[Swerd]

For me(and I think many others), there’s just nothing that an EV solves …

I never said that EV adoption is widespread now. But I do maintain that their adoption, or that of plug-in hybrids, is picking up and will become widespread sooner than many people now believe. Your other points are fair, and I've responded to some.

All the vehicles in my household are relatively new, and paid off.

My two vehicles were 20 & 22 years old and paid off. I've been looking & thinking for replacements for over a year. My new EV may be the last car I'll ever buy. Not everyone is in the same position.

The investment in purchasing an EV, adding the proper electrical service, charger and added KW to my monthly bill just don’t make sense.

It does come down to your local electricity rates and your present usage.

Our house is heated by an electric boiler which heats the slab of the house. While efficient, winters here can be brutal and it’s costly enough without charging my EV that would probably need to be charged after a 15mi trip to town in -20f weather.

Ouch! An electric boiler for heat can get expensive. In contrast, I have natural gas fired forced air heat. Charging an EV at home will add to your electricity bill while, at the same time, lower or eliminate your gas station bills. I've done the numbers for my own conditions. An EV costs less for me to run and significantly less to maintain.

My daily driver is a diesel pickup, and while it’s not a “work truck” I regularly haul things in it, and also tow a 7500lb camper. Sometimes if we decide to take the boat out of the lift and haul it to a different lake, my truck tows it.

I agree. EV's are not now good choices for towing heavy campers or boats. They may never be, or not in the foreseeable future. I didn't look into plug-in hybrids. I don't know if they a better option for towing.

I’ve also not seen compelling evidence that harvesting lithium to make these batteries is anything but harmful to the earth, and surrounding areas.

Harvesting lithium is harmful, but so is drilling for and refining oil.

Also, we live in a semi rural area and the support for charging isn’t good here. We did have a charging station but it was removed for some odd reason.

I strongly advise getting your own at-home recharging. On-the-road recharging is only needed when an overnight recharge at home isn't possible. It requires a 240V and ≥50A line, plus a home-type charger. Usually, they use a 4-prong NEMA 14-50 outlet (below).

If you tow a camper, what type of electrical outlet do you plug into? Do camper plug-in outlets provide 240V 50A?

 

[mtrycrafts]

... Our house is heated by an electric boiler which heats the slab of the house. ...

Is that electric boiler a resistance type or one of those hybrid water heaters. Thay can save a good amount of money.
Do you have tiered electric rates? What is your highest rate cost in the wintertime, not your bill.
That would be the cost of more electricity usage for an EV.

 

[Swerd]

For what it's worth, recharging my EV at home, during the summer, costs more than running my air conditioner for one day. But in the summer, AC is essential most every day, and I recharge the car 2 or 3 times a month.

Today, I shut off the AC and opened my windows for the first time in over 2 weeks.

 

[j_garcia]

House passes bill targeting California’s EV mandate

The U.S. House of Representatives on Thursday passed a bill targeting California’s efforts to phase out gas-powered cars. The legislation, which passed the House 222-190, would bar states from limi…

thehill.com

BUT the Senate is Democratic, so this is not expected to become law.

 

[Mikado463]

Interesting piece on CBS Saturday Morning if anyone caught it about the school bus transformation to EV.....

 

[cpp]

For what it's worth, recharging my EV at home, during the summer, costs more than running my air conditioner for one day. But in the summer, AC is essential most every day, and I recharge the car 2 or 3 times a month.

Today, I shut off the AC and opened my windows for the first time in over 2 weeks.

We found the same thing, but in Fla, you only shut the AC off, around Jan and Feb. EV cost is a hidden commodity until the buyer gets it home and after a few months, bingo the truth about EV comes out. OH PS : "The Department of Energy estimates that fully charging an all-electric vehicle with a 100-mile range would cost the equivalent of running air conditioning for six hours. "

"A J.D. Power study of EV owners who use Level 2 home-charging stations found that overall satisfaction in the home charging experiences declined 12 points since last year due mainly to the increase in electricity prices that are starting to hit home.Mar 29, 2023 "

In our area, FLA Power and Light is talking about upping their rates, to "help with the cost from hurricane restorations" . BS.

 

[Swerd]

Thanks for those interesting points.

We found the same thing, but in Fla, you only shut the AC off, around Jan and Feb. EV cost is a hidden commodity until the buyer gets it home and after a few months, bingo the truth about EV comes out. OH PS : "The Department of Energy estimates that fully charging an all-electric vehicle with a 100-mile range would cost the equivalent of running air conditioning for six hours. "

Finding out what the real costs of EV ownership are is why I started this thread. Purchasing is only the first step. For any car, the cost of driving, maintaining, and insuring become much more important over the years. EV costs are so different from ICE car costs, that I found most of my assumptions about cost didn't work.

"A J.D. Power study of EV owners who use Level 2 home-charging stations found that overall satisfaction in the home charging experiences declined 12 points since last year due mainly to the increase in electricity prices that are starting to hit home.Mar 29, 2023 "

That JD Power report didn't compare rising electricity prices to rising gas/diesel prices over the same time frame. If people were dissatisfied because electricity rates rose, how would they feel about rising gas prices? To address that question, JD Power would probably have to do that comparison state-by-state or region-by-region because of different electricity rates and gas taxes. I'm not sure they'd want to do all that, as JD Power seems to be primarily interested in customer satisfaction, or lack of it, with new car purchases. It depends on who pays JD Powers for its work.

In our area, FLA Power and Light is talking about upping their rates, to "help with the cost from hurricane restorations" . BS.

At least local electric power companies are subject to some kind of state or local government approval or regulation. How effective that is can vary widely around the USA. But voters, if they're highly motivated & organized, can have a say in this.

In contrast, gas/diesel prices are not regulated by local or state governments. If anything, they are subsidized by federal and some state governments. Voters get shut out of this process.

 

[highfigh]

Scary thought, will the higher petrol prices further the 'Trump cause' ?

Whoever wins the election needs to get a handle on the energy policies and fuel supply- this is becoming unsustainable for too many people and it's just another political football that shouldn't be kicked back & forth.

The guy with hair plugs says inflation isn't a problem and they talk about Bidenomics as if it's a good thing but my utility bill, gasoline and food costs have doubled and now my homeowner's insurance is set to increase by 36%, even though I have had zero claims. The zip code where I live is shared by a part of Milwaukee that has a lot of problems, many of which have been caused by lax prosecution and lack of law enforcement officers, so we get screwed.

I used to wonder why people moved out of the US- that isn't the case, now.