Onkyo Tx-Rz50 vs Denon X3800H

[Trell]

Gross… I know I was veto born in the wrong part of the world!!! lol

Veto born?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I have this feeling I will like the Denon as well. Will see how that goes.
So I now have put the crossover on the sub back to 120Hz, and the Heights to 150Hz.
With the subwoofer at 120Hz and the subs volume knob sitting at about 1 o’clock (this was the position when I ran the AccuEQ), if I want to adjust the bass so I'm hearing a bit more, do I simply turn the volume dial on sub a bit higher? Or what’s the best way to adjust the bass?

Best way is to adjust the trim level in the AVR. That way you can see how much you’re adjusting and always have a consistent “bassline” lol. Pun intended.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Veto born?

Fixed. My fingers are blind and can’t hit the damn buttons…

 

[Trell]

Fixed. My fingers are blind and can’t hit the damn buttons…

And here I was hoping for some salacious details, only to have my hopes dashed!

 

[snakeeyes]

IMHO, you can get away with 120hz crossovers easier with dual subs. This is because of localization. You start to notice the sound is coming from the single sub if you go that high. 100hz should be fine though.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

And here I was hoping for some salacious details, only to have my hopes dashed!

Lol. Maybe next time!

 

[PENG]

Thank you for those numbers. $20 isn’t too bad for an app I’ll potentially use often.

Does anyone know of a good video that really explains the basics of Hz and dB? I’m slowly starting to understand these numbers and how they work together, but a lot of it still goes over my head. I feel like I have a lot of great pieces already, but the few missing pieces keep it from making sense. I believe I’m understanding that hz is frequency, and dB is volume, but how they work together and how to adjust them is still foggy. The current understanding is when I set the crossover at xxHz, it’s only because I read that’s the number I’m supposed to use. As to understanding why it’s that number, that’s the information I don’t have or understand. In the calibration section where I can go + or - dB, that’s a bit limited for me as well. I’m excited to learn these things and I’ve already learned a lot, but I started with no knowledge and jumped in the deep end. So I’m learning from all different directions and some of the basics have even been missed. Everyone has been super helpful so far. @PENG, when you mention “Manufacturer's 70 Hz -30 dB is most likely on the optimistic side” that’s something I’m not understanding? When you say to move down from 200 to 150, that’s easy and I can adjust that number.

I think some of this will make a lot more sense as I go along and keep asking questions. The Audioholics videos I watched so far have been very helpful. If there are any other good beginners videos, please feel free to share. I started with a lot of the advanced videos and it looks like now I need to start working backwards. Haha

Sorry, I meant -3 dB, not -30 dB. See William's post on the meaning of -3 dB.

dB is of course, a log scale.

You can also do a search and will find something like the following:


Decibel Scale - Explanation, Working, Measurement, and FAQs (vedantu.com)
Decibel - Wikipedia

Frequency response - Wikipedia
The frequency response is characterized by the magnitude, typically in decibels (dB) or as a generic amplitude of the dependent variable, and the phase, in radians or degrees, measured against frequency, in radian/s, Hertz (Hz) or as a fraction of the sampling frequency.

 

[Danzilla31]

I agree it should go back up to 120. I’ll elaborate for the OP so this small clarification is aimed at him. The only way he’s “killing” bass is not in the subwoofer channel, and I think the verbiage is a little confusing and should be expanded a little, since it’s a small frequency range that might not get much content based on the individual soundtrack, and is only related to .1, and not any bass below XO points.
What the subwoofer is responsible for playing back is twofold. One, it plays all of the redirected bass below the XO points of the other speakers. Two, it plays the .1 LFE channel that’s encoded into movies. (This specific channel carries content from 1-120hz and the LPF just sets the ceiling of that content.)
IE 5.1, 7.1, 7.1.4 etc. while they both are played by the subwoofer, they’re are NOT related. Music doesn’t have a .1 in it, only movies do.
The only time imo that it makes sense to lower the LPF of LFE is if there’s an issue with localization of the subwoofer.
Seems this is a movie centric system, but I thought some clearing of the water might be useful, even at the risk of being pedantic lol.
I also mentioned lowering the heights XO to 100hz. While I still that’s true, I failed to mention what you and @lovinthehd did about the lack of EQ between 100 and 200hz. Oopsies! @PENG might have the right idea in trying 150hz. And as much as I’d love to try Dirac, I think the denon will be a much better solution. Although I’ve seen a few people that love their RZ50’s.

I know you may not have any concept of this living in the great state of Texas. But it’s currently -7F with 22mph winds, and a wind chill factor between -30 and -40. I think I’ll com stay with you. Until about may!

I know you may not have any concept of this living in the great state of Texas. But it’s currently -7F with 22mph winds, and a wind chill factor between -30 and -40. I think I’ll com stay with you. Until about may!

Bruh come on I have an extra bedroom just waiting. When we are not hitting the town we will be living in the theater room!

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I know you may not have any concept of this living in the great state of Texas. But it’s currently -7F with 22mph winds, and a wind chill factor between -30 and -40. I think I’ll com stay with you. Until about may!

Bruh come on I have an extra bedroom just waiting. When we are not hitting the town we will be living in the theater room!

Nice! I’ll bring my gear and then I can have a bedroom theater. You know, for alone time. Lol. I’d love to check out your theater btw. I love what you’ve done.

 

[Danzilla31]

Nice! I’ll bring my gear and then I can have a bedroom theater. You know, for alone time. Lol. I’d love to check out your theater btw. I love what you’ve done.

Thanks man I'd love to have a friend from this hobby not only enjoy it but also give me some honest feedback. It is my first serious attempt my first dedicated room so I'm sure there is room for improvement!

 

[Danzilla31]

Nice! I’ll bring my gear and then I can have a bedroom theater. You know, for alone time. Lol. I’d love to check out your theater btw. I love what you’ve done.

Well set up a 14.5.6 setup in your bedroom that should hold you over

 

[Danzilla31]

Nice! I’ll bring my gear and then I can have a bedroom theater. You know, for alone time. Lol. I’d love to check out your theater btw. I love what you’ve done.

On a serious note in the summers my family is gone for traveling sp if you ever feel like a road trip come on down well hit the town and you can check out the theater just hit me up with a PM

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Well set up a 14.5.6 setup in your bedroom that should hold you over

Ooh spoil me!

Thanks man I'd love to have a friend from this hobby not only enjoy it but also give me some honest feedback. It is my first serious attempt my first dedicated room so I'm sure there is room for improvement!

It’s definitely fun to have friends to share and compare with. I only have a few, so it would be so awesome to visit. I loved eppies story about meeting with swerd.

 

[lovinthehd]

I have this feeling I will like the Denon as well. Will see how that goes.
So I now have put the crossover on the sub back to 120Hz, and the Heights to 150Hz.
With the subwoofer at 120Hz and the subs volume knob sitting at about 1 o’clock (this was the position when I ran the AccuEQ), if I want to adjust the bass so I'm hearing a bit more, do I simply turn the volume dial on sub a bit higher? Or what’s the best way to adjust the bass?

The LPF of LFE is a setting in the avr. If you're talking about the low pass filter (often incorrectly labeled crossover on subs), that should either not be in use (and using the LFE input on some subs does that automatically) or maxed out (and is usually higher than 120).

 

[Rylan]

The LPF of LFE is a setting in the avr. If you're talking about the low pass filter (often incorrectly labeled crossover on subs), that should either not be in use (and using the LFE input on some subs does that automatically) or maxed out (and is usually higher than 120).

This is the volume control i am referring to. This picture was taken before I had changed my settings. Volume control is currently set to 1 o’clock and I did turn the volume up to test it, to about 3 o’clock, and the bass definitely increased. Just wondering if it’s OK to use that dial to increase the bass as needed?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

This is the volume control i am referring to. This picture was taken before I had changed my settings. Volume control is currently set to 1 o’clock and I did turn the volume up to test it, to about 3 o’clock, and the bass definitely increased. Just wondering if it’s OK to use that dial to increase the bass as needed?

No. As I mentioned before, you’ll want to adjust that in the AVR.

 

[Rylan]

No. As I mentioned before, you’ll want to adjust that in the AVR.

Sorry guess I missed that part. My mistake. Sounds good. Thank you.

 

[lovinthehd]

This is the volume control i am referring to. This picture was taken before I had changed my settings. Volume control is currently set to 1 o’clock and I did turn the volume up to test it, to about 3 o’clock, and the bass definitely increased. Just wondering if it’s OK to use that dial to increase the bass as needed?

I forgot about your volume question altogether That sort of volume control isn't particularly precise in terms of repeatability in say going back to a calibrated level. The best/easiest way to change the level of the sub is using the avr's subwoofer level adjustment, far more repeatable, too.

Your picture shows the "crossover" (only a low pass filter) set to 40, I'd set that to max. I looked at a 10S manual just now and seems some have a specific switch to eliminate the sub's crossover/low pass filter.

 

[Rylan]

I forgot about your volume question altogether That sort of volume control isn't particularly precise in terms of repeatability in say going back to a calibrated level. The best/easiest way to change the level of the sub is using the avr's subwoofer level adjustment, far more repeatable, too.

Your picture shows the "crossover" (only a low pass filter) set to 40, I'd set that to max. I looked at a 10S manual just now and seems some have a specific switch to eliminate the sub's crossover/low pass filter.

Below is from the manual. The reason it’s at 40 is because that in the “clicked position” which turns on the LFE Mode

“The crossover knob selects both the crossover frequency and also lets you select from two DSP sound modes. If the knob is turned fully counterclockwise until it clicks (LFE enabled), the internal crossover of the Speedwoofer is bypassed and the crossover function will be handled by your home theater receiver or processor. Also, with the Speedwoofer’s

crossover bypassed, the DSP mode will extend the Speedwoofer’s bass response, which can be ideal for movies.

If the knob is rotated clockwise off the bypass position, the Speedwoofer’s crossover is active, and you can select the appropriate frequency. For example, an 80Hz setting means your Speedwoofer will handle all frequencies at 80Hz and below. An 80Hz setting is recommended for larger

bookshelf speakers. For smaller bookshelf speakers, we recommend a setting of 90-100Hz. We also suggest trying different crossover settings so that the Speedwoofer integrates seamlessly with the rest of your system.

When the internal crossover is active, the DSP will enable your Speedwoofer to deliver the same performance as our original Speedwoofer 10S. This may be a good choice if you primarily listen to music or if you wish to limit the bass that is transmitted to other rooms. To use this mode with your home theater receiver’s internal crossover also active, turn the crossover knob fully

clockwise. This will prevent the Speedwoofer’s crossover from interfering with your home theater receiver’s crossover.”

 

[lovinthehd]

Below is from the manual. The reason it’s at 40 is because that in the “clicked position” which turns on the LFE Mode

“The crossover knob selects both the crossover frequency and also lets you select from two DSP sound modes. If the knob is turned fully counterclockwise until it clicks (LFE enabled), the internal crossover of the Speedwoofer is bypassed and the crossover function will be handled by your home theater receiver or processor. Also, with the Speedwoofer’s

crossover bypassed, the DSP mode will extend the Speedwoofer’s bass response, which can be ideal for movies.

If the knob is rotated clockwise off the bypass position, the Speedwoofer’s crossover is active, and you can select the appropriate frequency. For example, an 80Hz setting means your Speedwoofer will handle all frequencies at 80Hz and below. An 80Hz setting is recommended for larger

bookshelf speakers. For smaller bookshelf speakers, we recommend a setting of 90-100Hz. We also suggest trying different crossover settings so that the Speedwoofer integrates seamlessly with the rest of your system.

When the internal crossover is active, the DSP will enable your Speedwoofer to deliver the same performance as our original Speedwoofer 10S. This may be a good choice if you primarily listen to music or if you wish to limit the bass that is transmitted to other rooms. To use this mode with your home theater receiver’s internal crossover also active, turn the crossover knob fully

clockwise. This will prevent the Speedwoofer’s crossover from interfering with your home theater receiver’s crossover.”

Good to know, thanks. Definitely a different manual I found. Guess they changed sub amps at some point....the manual I looked at had a toggle switch for it like your autopower switch.