Onkyo Tx-Rz50 vs Denon X3800H

[Rylan]

Make sense now. I guess they originally had a 10S sub but it’s been upgraded and here are the current manuals for all of my speakers

CG3 - CG23 Manual

https://rslspeakers.com/?attachment_id=29814&download_file=5b6def25bb0dd&wcpoa_attachment_order_id=53846&rsl_order_number=53846

Speedwoofer 10S MK2 Manual

https://rslspeakers.com/?attachment_id=53502&download_file=u6da950z2ptda&wcpoa_attachment_order_id=53846&rsl_order_number=53846

C34E MK2 Manual

https://rslspeakers.com/?attachment_id=48378&download_file=llyklxqia9f7n&wcpoa_attachment_order_id=53846&rsl_order_number=53846

 

[lovinthehd]

LOL I missed that the sub had mk2 right there on the amp....

 

[Rylan]

LOL I missed that the sub had mk2 right there on the amp....

Haha! Welcome to my world

 

[lovinthehd]

Haha! Welcome to my world

It is a world of minutiae in many ways....

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Sorry guess I missed that part. My mistake. Sounds good. Thank you.

No worries!

 

[Rylan]

Which is a better setting to use for volume, Absolute, or Relatlve? What do each of you prefer?
I watched a good video on this

It makes sense setting it on relative in regards to the studio reference level mentioned in this video, but just curious what seems to be recommended on here? Is using 0 as the starting point hard to get used to?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I’ve always used relative, and I’m pretty sure most of us nerds do. Once in a while a noob will ask why his volume has to go up to number 80 to get loud. Lol.
You can use whatever is familiar to you but if yo RSL me you watched a movie at MV -15, that tells me more than if you watched at MV 85 even though it might be the same thing.

 

[lovinthehd]

Which is a better setting to use for volume, Absolute, or Relatlve? What do each of you prefer?
I watched a good video on this

It makes sense setting it on relative in regards to the studio reference level mentioned in this video, but just curious what seems to be recommended on here? Is using 0 as the starting point hard to get used to?

I prefer relative and I think more use that so easier to share info. I wouldn't call 0 a starting point but rather an end point....I rarely get volume up that high and set volume limits in my avr so that isn't accidentally exceeded.

ps we have our own set of instructional articles/videos....

 

[Rylan]

I prefer relative and I think more use that so easier to share info. I wouldn't call 0 a starting point but rather an end point....I rarely get volume up that high and set volume limits in my avr so that isn't accidentally exceeded.

ps we have our own set of instructional articles/videos....

Great. That makes sense saying it’s an end point. I didn’t see any videos on this on audioholics. I will need to do some more searching

 

[lovinthehd]

Great. That makes sense saying it’s an end point. I didn’t see any videos on this on audioholics. I will need to do some more searching

I don't use videos much, it's probably covered in an article....maybe somewhere in this search

An article on relative vs absolute scales here https://support.denon.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/136/~/relative-and-absolute-volume-ranges

 

[Rylan]

Okay the LPF of LFE needs to go back up to 120hz don't ever touch that it should never go below 120hz that's a feature that should never have been given to us consumers. I'll explain more why later but you're killing any bass above 80hz in your subwoofer channel. LPF of LFE needs to always be set to the highest it can go which is 120hz

I liked how Youthman explains the LPF of LFE in this video at min 15:45. He also says what you said @Danzilla31, and another reason to keep it at 120Hz

 

[lovinthehd]

Not such a complex subject to need a video, but...

 

[Rylan]

Not such a complex subject to need a video, but...

I learn watching videos and asking questions. I just watched 5 calibration videos. This was a point I had never heard before. From what I understood, I didn’t realize there was content that potentially could be missed (if I was at 80Hz) that was studio recorded intended for the LFE that was separate from the crossover. For me, it was another reason to add to what Danzilla31 had mentioned about keeping it at 120Hz

 

[lovinthehd]

I learn watching videos and asking questions. I just watched 5 calibration videos. This was a point I had never heard before. From what I understood, I didn’t realize there was content that potentially could be missed (if I was at 80Hz) that was studio recorded intended for the LFE that was separate from the crossover. For me, it was another reason to add to what Danzilla31 had mentioned about keeping it at 120Hz

Not sure what you're talking about there, but the LFE channel is normally limited to 120....but some recordings may not adhere to that practice. There are no firm rules for it. Videos can be okay as long as they are of good grounding....I haven't found many of those about audio to be particularly good, aside those here, audiosciencereview and erin's audio corner. Never used a video in running calibration setups myself.

 

[PENG]

I learn watching videos and asking questions. I just watched 5 calibration videos. This was a point I had never heard before. From what I understood, I didn’t realize there was content that potentially could be missed (if I was at 80Hz) that was studio recorded intended for the LFE that was separate from the crossover. For me, it was another reason to add to what Danzilla31 had mentioned about keeping it at 120Hz

Like HD, I have yet to find one video on youtube that does a good job on room correction with Audyssey, Dirac Live or Anthem ARC. One just have to read a ton of stuff. Having said that, just to learn how to run such calibration, you only have to read the owner's manual and follow the instructions.

It is to learn how to get the best out of such RC system that takes time to read more and experiment more. As far as setting LPF (Audyssey's) to 120 Hz, that has been a good guideline for years, and there isn't a good reason to go lower, or higher though going higher wouldn't change much if any, just nothing to gain.

If you want to get more from Audyssey, there are some good articles, guidelines etc., on the internet but many of them are filled with bad information so you need to be careful choosing what to read and believe. Below is one of the better site, I don't agree with all of things they said, but over all, they have done a good job. Please take the time to explore the site and read some of the other linked articles.

Configuring Audyssey – The Right Way – Simple Home Cinema

They apparently also sold a spreadsheet based UI that will let you take full advantage of Denon's $20 Mult EQ Editor App. I used Ratbuddysssey that is free but that could be a little complicated for a lot of people. Based on the information provided on this Beta product, I think it may not have as much flexibility of Ratbuddyssey, but would be easier to use so I wouldn't mind paying a reasonably fee for it. The author also provided a link to Ratbuddyessey at the bottom of the page.

Audyssey Curve Editor Excel Tool – Simple Home Cinema

 

[Rylan]

Like HD, I have yet to find one video on youtube that does a good job on room correction with Audyssey, Dirac Live or Anthem ARC. One just have to read a ton of stuff. Having said that, just to learn how to run such calibration, you only have to read the owner's manual and follow the instructions.

It is to learn how to get the best out of such RC system that takes time to read more and experiment more. As far as setting LPF (Audyssey's) to 120 Hz, that has been a good guideline for years, and there isn't a good reason to go lower, or higher though going higher wouldn't change much if any, just nothing to gain.

If you want to get more from Audyssey, there are some good articles, guidelines etc., on the internet but many of them are filled with bad information so you need to be careful choosing what to read and believe. Below is one of the better site, I don't agree with all of things they said, but over all, they have done a good job. Please take the time to explore the site and read some of the other linked articles.

Configuring Audyssey – The Right Way – Simple Home Cinema

They apparently also sold a spreadsheet based UI that will let you take full advantage of Denon's $20 Mult EQ Editor App. I used Ratbuddysssey that is free but that could be a little complicated for a lot of people. Based on the information provided on this Beta product, I think it may not have as much flexibility of Ratbuddyssey, but would be easier to use so I wouldn't mind paying a reasonably fee for it. The author also provided a link to Ratbuddyessey at the bottom of the page.

Audyssey Curve Editor Excel Tool – Simple Home Cinema

Well said @PENG. I appreciate the articles and will do some reading. Seems like it’s a bit challenging to get solid tips and setup videos done correctly. Your feedback as well as others in this forum helps keeping me moving the right direction

 

[Rylan]

Like HD, I have yet to find one video on youtube that does a good job on room correction with Audyssey, Dirac Live or Anthem ARC. One just have to read a ton of stuff. Having said that, just to learn how to run such calibration, you only have to read the owner's manual and follow the instructions.

It is to learn how to get the best out of such RC system that takes time to read more and experiment more. As far as setting LPF (Audyssey's) to 120 Hz, that has been a good guideline for years, and there isn't a good reason to go lower, or higher though going higher wouldn't change much if any, just nothing to gain.

If you want to get more from Audyssey, there are some good articles, guidelines etc., on the internet but many of them are filled with bad information so you need to be careful choosing what to read and believe. Below is one of the better site, I don't agree with all of things they said, but over all, they have done a good job. Please take the time to explore the site and read some of the other linked articles.

Configuring Audyssey – The Right Way – Simple Home Cinema

They apparently also sold a spreadsheet based UI that will let you take full advantage of Denon's $20 Mult EQ Editor App. I used Ratbuddysssey that is free but that could be a little complicated for a lot of people. Based on the information provided on this Beta product, I think it may not have as much flexibility of Ratbuddyssey, but would be easier to use so I wouldn't mind paying a reasonably fee for it. The author also provided a link to Ratbuddyessey at the bottom of the page.

Audyssey Curve Editor Excel Tool – Simple Home Cinema

“Configuring Audyssey the right way” was a good read. Everything in that article directs you to purchase the ebook “the Secrets of Audyssey guide”. Have you read this and do you recommend the purchase? Its inexpensive and I’d consider getting it if the information is going to get me set up properly

Simple Home Cinema - Bringing Your Entertainment to Life

Secrets of Audyssey: The Ultimate Setup Guide for Your Denon and Marantz Receiver

simplehomecinema.com

 

[Rylan]

I have the Denon 4700 now and I am trying out Audyssey. I have few questions. When setting reference, (I already changed to this setting) I keep hearing 2 different numbers thrown around in my research. Some say to set your reference at 75db, and others say 85db. I realize that Audyssey is supposed to set it for reference during the auto calibration, but when I used my phones app to check the levels from the sweet spot at seated ear height after calibration was done, they were between 68 and 71 db. I don’t have an actual SPL meter but i do have one that’s calibrated that will arrive in a week.

My first question is what db should I set all my loudspeakers for when at reference? If 85, that means I need to really increase the db’s on all the loud speakers quite a bit.

Second question, when I started Audyssey, I had the gain set at 12 o’clock on my sub, audyssey said it was too high and had me lower it until it turned green on the screen. This brought the subs dial to about 9 o’clock. Then I was able to run the setup. Now my sub seems weak sounding. Am I ok to run the calibration with my gain at 12 o’clock when audyssey is saying not to? (I’ll attach pic of my measurements after running Audyssey, and these numbers are showing 68-71 db on my spl phone app)

Third question, what db should the sub be set too for reference? The same as the loudspeakers? (75, 85?) I did read that some say to run the sub +10 db hotter than the loudspeakers.

 

[lovinthehd]

I have the Denon 4700 now and I am trying out Audyssey. I have few questions. When setting reference, (I already changed to this setting) I keep hearing 2 different numbers thrown around in my research. Some say to set your reference at 75db, and others say 85db. I realize that Audyssey is supposed to set it for reference during the auto calibration, but when I used my phones app to check the levels from the sweet spot at seated ear height after calibration was done, they were between 68 and 71 db. I don’t have an actual SPL meter but i do have one that’s calibrated that will arrive in a week.

My first question is what db should I set all my loudspeakers for when at reference? If 85, that means I need to really increase the db’s on all the loud speakers quite a bit.

Second question, when I started Audyssey, I had the gain set at 12 o’clock on my sub, audyssey said it was too high and had me lower it until it turned green on the screen. This brought the subs dial to about 9 o’clock. Then I was able to run the setup. Now my sub seems weak sounding. Am I ok to run the calibration with my gain at 12 o’clock when audyssey is saying not to? (I’ll attach pic of my measurements after running Audyssey, and these numbers are showing 68-71 db on my spl phone app)

Third question, what db should the sub be set too for reference? The same as the loudspeakers? (75, 85?) I did read that some say to run the sub +10 db hotter than the loudspeakers.

If you're going to manually set levels you turn the avr to "0" on the relative scale and measure to 75dB (slow, c-weighted). The avr will adjust....once upon a time you did need to do it at 85dB but that turned out to be too loud for most people. OTOH not sure how good your phone app is for this. A measurement mic would be a good route, then you can also use REW software for further analysis as well as act as an spl meter. This article covers it a bit https://www.audioholics.com/home-theater-calibration/a-v-receiver-setup-crossover-distance-level-eq

The starting point for the gain on the sub is a guess....for my consumer subs plate amps that 9 o'clock position isn't unusual as to where it needs to match up for Audyssey. Many do bump up the sub trim level or use the editor app to create a house curve (did you buy the app? I would)....Audyssey aims for flat response and many prefer a bit of boost down low....your choice. 10dB might be a bit much, tho....I usually just raise 2-3dB afterwards.

Maybe the 10dB thing you're thinking of is that the THX spec is reference level being 85dB average level for the speakers (with allowance for 20dB peaks), but the LFE channel is 10dB higher?

 

[Rylan]

If you're going to manually set levels you turn the avr to "0" on the relative scale and measure to 75dB (slow, c-weighted). The avr will adjust....once upon a time you did need to do it at 85dB but that turned out to be too loud for most people. OTOH not sure how good your phone app is for this. A measurement mic would be a good route, then you can also use REW software for further analysis as well as act as an spl meter. This article covers it a bit https://www.audioholics.com/home-theater-calibration/a-v-receiver-setup-crossover-distance-level-eq

The starting point for the gain on the sub is a guess....for my consumer subs plate amps that 9 o'clock position isn't unusual as to where it needs to match up for Audyssey. Many do bump up the sub trim level or use the editor app to create a house curve (did you buy the app? I would)....Audyssey aims for flat response and many prefer a bit of boost down low....your choice. 10dB might be a bit much, tho....I usually just raise 2-3dB afterwards.

Maybe the 10dB thing you're thinking of is that the THX spec is reference level being 85dB average level for the speakers (with allowance for 20dB peaks), but the LFE channel is 10dB higher?

Thanks for that info. Yes what I had read was about the LFE channel being 10db higher with 20db allowance for peaks.

Also what I was referring to was not doing a manual set up, but still running Audyssey setup. Once it’s all done, I can then check the pink noise and see what the SPL meter is showing. So then my question is once I click on manual after I run Audyssey, can I then change and adjust settings from what Audyssey did in the manual set up? Do the settings from Audyssey show up under manual and that’s how I can make adjustments?

I don’t yet have the app but will purchase it