Auro 3D

[jakkedtide]

I can cross mix. So no limitations at all with my A8A. So much choice and options and that's what is confusing. I don't want to always change my decoding. So leaving it on surround decode auto is nice as it picks Dsu, neural x or auro 3d automatically based on the content being played. Then if you want you can force it to play neural x on top of an Atmos track of you really want. I would say not being limited is nicer than the receiver not letting you do a bunch of things.

I emailed them back asking for more clarity, let's see what they say.

 

[Trebdp83]

Ok, now check those tracks and sound modes carefully. What is the source of your Dolby Atmos content? Disc? Bitstreamed? Streaming service? Streaming device? You cannot apply DTS Neural:X to a Dolby Atmos track on any receiver. If metadata is missing and it comes over as DTHD or DD+ without metadata, that is another story. But, according to Yamaha’s own manual, you should not be able to cross up mix still. The only exception would be a Dolby Digital 2.0 or Dolby Digital 5.1 track. The manual does not specifically include them in the list of tracks that cannot be up mixed by DTS Neural:X.

I get the OCD thing and the set it and forget it thing. I also get the “What happens if I do this?” thing and have played with various sound modes on various tracks. Yamaha has one of two things going on. They have a really expensive receiver with really hampered abilities OR they put out a really inaccurate manual. I hope for the sake of anybody who bought one that it is the latter. Those are some serious up mixing restrictions.

If somebody thinks they are applying DTS Neural:X to an Atmos track, I suggest that Atmos metadata is not making its way to the receiver. If Yamaha's manual is accurate, I'd suggest that Dolby is not making its way to the receiver at all and a converted PCM track is in play. There are quite a few proprietary processes in those Yamahas going on and the limits on others processing/decoding when Surround:AI is enabled are very interesting as well. See page 132 of the manual for that information.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Ok, now check those tracks and sound modes carefully. What is the source of your Dolby Atmos content? Disc? Bitstreamed? Streaming service? Streaming device? You cannot apply DTS Neural:X to a Dolby Atmos track on any receiver. If metadata is missing and it comes over as DTHD or DD+ without metadata, that is another story. But, according to Yamaha’s own manual, you should not be able to cross up mix still. The only exception would be a Dolby Digital 2.0 or Dolby Digital 5.1 track. The manual does not specifically include them in the list of tracks that cannot be up mixed by DTS Neural:X.

I get the OCD thing and the set it and forget it thing. I also get the “What happens if I do this?” thing and have played with various sound modes on various tracks. Yamaha has one of two things going on. They have a really expensive receiver with really hampered abilities OR they put out a really inaccurate manual. I hope for the sake of anybody who bought one that it is the latter. Those are some serious up mixing restrictions.

If somebody thinks they are applying DTS Neural:X to an Atmos track, I suggest that Atmos metadata is not making its way to the receiver. If Yamaha's manual is accurate, I'd suggest that Dolby is not making its way to the receiver at all and a converted PCM track is in play. There are quite a few proprietary processes in those Yamahas going on and the limits on others processing/decoding when Surround:AI is enabled are very interesting as well. See page 132 of the manual for that information.

Agreed with the above. And for clarity(as I thought I mentioned above) I DO NOT believe you can apply DTSnx to Atmos, or DSU to dtsX.

So I did get a few minutes to try some things. So, with my ATV, multichannel/pcm allowed cross upmixing while naturally, Atmos content(Finch) only allowed Atmos, folded down stereo multichannel and virtual.
DTS on war of the worlds allowed both upmixers.
DTSHDMA (Fury) allowed for both upmixers as well.
DtsX(atomic blonde) only allowed dtsx or the others that could apply to Atmos like stereo multi and virtual.
Atmos on BD(RP1) allows for stereo, trueHD Atmos, multi and virtual as well.
It also allows me to apply DTSnx to the core trueHD track. I did take screen pics of some options.
I think Yamaha screwed the pooch on their manual.

 

[Trebdp83]

Yes, those tracks and the modes applied to them are in line with what goes on in most new AVRs. Throw Atmos or DTS:X into the mix and the competing decoder cannot be applied to the track. Yamaha needs to be clearer about what its receivers can do. Who knows what kind of limitations were imposed upon them knowing Auro 3D was going to be put in the mix via future firmware update? Getting the desired sound decoding and resulting output is no small thing to consider when shopping for new speakers, devices, TVs and AVRs. Soooo much needs to be considered to be able to do exactly what it is one wants to do with their gear.

The Apple TV 4K and XBOX Series X use Dolby MAT. Basically, a converted Dolby Digital Plus track with atmos metadata that has been converted to PCM but retains the metadata that flags it for Atmos decoding. Turn Atmos metadata off in the Apple TV 4K, and you get a 2.0 or more channels PCM track that you can decode just about any way you like it. Some may be doing this and think their AVR can cross up mix Dolby Atmos but that is simply not the case.

 

[Trebdp83]

If one thinks they are getting a Dolby Atmos track from their source and into their receiver, they need to check the incoming codec and channel information. If you see Atmos/PCM, Atmos/DD+ or Atmos/TrueHD then you are getting Atmos metadata and will not be able to apply DTS Neural:X up mixing in ANY receiver. If you do not see the word "Atmos" and see channel information such as 3/4/0.1 or 3/2/0.1 instead of a series of dashes, then you are not getting Atmos metadata and DTS Neural:X may be applicable depending upon the restrictions of the receiver in use.

 

[Trebdp83]

If things aren't confusing enough already, there is also the issue of speaker configuration and assignment. Atmos metadata may be in the track BUT it will NOT be flagged for decoding and processed if one has a 5.1 setup and has NOT turned on virtual height speakers. This would also be the case if somebody mistakenly designated a 7.1 speaker setup in the receiver instead of a 5.1.2 setup. You need to have real or virtual height speaker assignments or Atmos metadata will be ignored. The lack of Atmos metadata recognition will allow for DTS Neural:X processing of Dolby tracks since the Atmos metadata is not locking DTS processing out.

I'm going to take a moment and edit myself so I'm not filling up this joint with info that may not be representative of the behavior of a receiver belonging to somebody else. While the behavior above may apply to one receiver, it may not apply to another. I'll just give some examples of what goes on in my current situation. My new Onkyo TX-NR6050 does not work exactly like my two other Onkyo's, the Denon I recently returned or the finicky little cyclops I keep around from Yamaha. So, using the Onkyo TX-NR6050 and receiving a Dolby Atmos signal from any source, Atmos metadata is recognized and processed if the speaker configuration is 2.1.2, 3.1.2, 4.1.2 and 5.1.2. Metadata is ignored if the speaker configuration is 2.1, 3.1, 4.1 or 5.1 and Speaker Virtualizer is OFF. If I leave the Speaker Virtualizer OFF and change the configuration to 6.1 or 7.1, then Atmos/PCM, Atmos/DD+ or Atmos/DTHD is displayed. If I hit a sound mode button and accidentally go into STEREO mode, "Atmos" goes away and only PCM, DD+ or DTHD are displayed. So, yeah, results will vary. No matter what I do with any receiver, I cannot apply DTS Neural:X to an Atmos track when Atmos metadata is recognized and in the mix. My apologies for any misinformation. See Yamaha, that's how it's done.

 

[SithZedi]

Thanks for some interesting discussion.
Am running a 5.2.2 (external amp for front LR) setup and have designated the receiver as 7.2.4(ex Fr) and it seems to be working.
Playing the Who's Quadrophenia right now on Auro and it's a bit of revelation. Did Dion "Runaround" earlier and wow.

 

[Trebdp83]

Every receiver is different and when using external amps, some receivers will leave internal amps on even if using external amps for certain channels. They've gotten better about it lately. You don't want more amps on than you need if the speakers aren't there. If you are running 5.2.2, which means five ear level channels, two subs and two height/Presence speakers, setting the speaker configuration to 7.1.4/7.2.4 will turn on internal amps for speakers that may not be connected to the designated terminals. Just make sure you don't have more amps turned on than you need or you will be powering terminals for nothing and actually lose information because the receiver will not reroute info to other speakers because it thinks you are using more of them than you are actually using. If you only have a 5.2.2 speaker setup, then that should be the configuration set for processing or your receiver will send info to Surround Back and second Height/Presence Speakers that aren't there.

 

[snakeeyes]

Ok ya just tested it on my Yamaha 2060 with FireCube on Disney plus. My speaker setup is 5.1.4 with object decoding enabled. (Think newer models don’t have to enable object decoding)

If you add NeuralX to an Atmos track you are actually taking the DD+ and upmixing it to NeuralX because it says “Digital +” in the “information” (5.1.4 for me) - Turn off NeuralX or return to DSU and it changes back to “Atmos/Digital +”

If you add DSU to an Atmos track you are doing nothing because it still says “Atmos/Digital +” in the “Information” (5.1.4 for me)

Same test on Disney plus on AppleTV 4K is different….. it will not let you use DSU or NeuralX on “Atmos/PCM”. Says “Not Available “ when you try to do the upmixer.

 

[Trebdp83]

Well, that raises more questions. Did the signal info from the Firecube display Atmos/DD+ before applying DTS Neural:X. Or was it always DD+? Never heard of a receiver turning its nose up at Atmos metadata so it could apply DTS Neural:X.

 

[snakeeyes]

Well, that raises more questions. Did the signal info from the Firecube display Atmos/DD+ before applying DTS Neural:X. Or was it always DD+? Never heard of a receiver turning its nose up at Atmos metadata so it could apply DTS Neural:X.

Atmos/Digital +

So I edited my post above to be more clear.

 

[Trebdp83]

So it ignored the metadata, which would change the signal info, after applying DTS Neural:X? That is interesting and would explain why some think they are cross upmixing Atmos when perhaps the receiver is ignoring the metadata and processing the DD+ or DTHD core.

 

[jakkedtide]

Yamaha called me instead of emailing back and said if it's a good Atmos track then leave it on STRAIGHT. He them said if it's not Atmos or a poor mixed Atmos then surround AI would be the preference over dsu/neural x.

I am using the new Yamaha a8a fyi

 

[Trebdp83]

Wow, what a mess. So, even though DSU does nothing, it could be applied to a "poor mixed Atmos" track to improve it? DTS Neural:X would be another option but the best option would be their proprietary AI process? I want to believe there was a miscommunication because if that is what they said, that person should never be allowed on the phones again. Yikes!

 

[jakkedtide]

Wow, what a mess. So, even though DSU does nothing, it could be applied to a "poor mixed Atmos" track to improve it? DTS Neural:X would be another option but the best option would be their proprietary AI process? I want to believe there was a miscommunication because if that is what they said, that person should never be allowed on the phones again. Yikes!

I think that's why he called me instead of email so there is no proof of what he said. He said for my Xbox series x I should use surround AI for gaming.

Interesting though

 

[gene]

The Yamahas let you apply DSU or NeuralX as “Surround Decode” to any material including Atmos or DTSX. The opposite of “Surround Decode” is “Straight” which turns off DSU or DTSX. (DSP is a completely different thing to use on the Yamaha but the “Straight” mode button turns that off too)

I believe what @gene was saying was that applying DSU when the material is already Atmos would just play the same Atmos and DSU would not alter the material. Is that right?

I’m using Yamaha RXA2060.

Yes if the signal says Atmos, there is no upmixer you can apply.

 

[Trebdp83]

Ok ya just tested it on my Yamaha 2060 with FireCube on Disney plus. My speaker setup is 5.1.4 with object decoding enabled. (Think newer models don’t have to enable object decoding)

If you add NeuralX to an Atmos track you are actually taking the DD+ and upmixing it to NeuralX because it says “Digital +” in the “information” (5.1.4 for me) - Turn off NeuralX or return to DSU and it changes back to “Atmos/Digital +”

If you add DSU to an Atmos track you are doing nothing because it still says “Atmos/Digital +” in the “Information” (5.1.4 for me)

Same test on Disney plus on AppleTV 4K is different….. it will not let you use DSU or NeuralX on “Atmos/PCM”. Says “Not Available “ when you try to do the upmixer.

Ok, I dragged the little one eyed demon out for some experiments. I had some not altogether similar results. I played a disc with an Atmos/TrueHD track and tried speaker configurations of 7.1, 5.1.2 and 5.1 with Dolby Virtualization ON. I brought up the Channel In information and left it up while changing the surround decoder. Selecting Dsur and DTS Neural:X made no changes to the audio output or the input signal information. It just doesn't do anything even though it comes up in the lower right hand corner of the screen when selected. So, while nothing is actually applied and STRAIGHT/AUTO decoding continues, one can actually select and see Dsur and Neural:X. This is not the case with my Onkyo. It will skip DSU and DTSNX altogether and only its proprietary sound modes are available. Once I went passed Dsur and DTS Neural:X in the Yamaha and selected DTS Neo:6, the audio cut out for a second and the information switched from Atmos/TrueHD to just TrueHD and the dashes present with Atmos metadata playback were replaced with 3/4/0.1. So, I'm satisfied that nothing is going on when selecting Dsur or DTS Neural:X with Atmos tracks and Yamaha needs to clean things up. I'll test those other limitations detailed in my manual later but if what is written in the manual for the RX-V6A turns out to be entirely accurate, I'd be really concerned if the RX-A8A is also entirely accurate. Those are some heavy limitations for processing different kinds of codecs.

 

[Trebdp83]

Thanks for some interesting discussion.
Am running a 5.2.2 (external amp for front LR) setup and have designated the receiver as 7.2.4(ex Fr) and it seems to be working.
Playing the Who's Quadrophenia right now on Auro and it's a bit of revelation. Did Dion "Runaround" earlier and wow.

After experimenting with the little cyclops last night, I remembered how frustrating the settings in the Yamaha can be and remembered my post about amps and speakers. The basic(7.2.4) setting would be correct and one would make further adjustments in the Speaker Size settings. All speakers should be set at Small with the Crossover set to one’s liking. The subwoofer would of course be set to Use or a Large size setting would be forced on the Front speakers. Once set to Small, make sure Extra Bass is OFF. One would then set any speakers NOT present in the configuration to None. After doing so, the receiver will reroute info meant for those speakers to others in the current configuration.

As for using an external amplifier for the Front speakers, I think Yamaha has really come up short here. Some immediately connected external amps using the XLR pre outs on this thing. Nothing is really gained here and some things are lost.

Even being the flagship at a premium price, the Yamaha RX-A8A only processes as many channels as it powers. There are eleven channels of processing for eleven amps. It should have dumped a big bunch of its proprietary processes and included thirteen channels of processing so one could reassign the Front channel amps for a third pair of height/presence speakers in an Atmos/DTS:X configuration or Top Center/Voice Of God speakers in an Auro 3D configuration since they knew it was coming in an update.

Some might want to bi-amp and think they can use both pre outs and terminals and still get 11.1 but that is not the case. Bi-amp correctly and you lose two channels of processing. Again, too many limitations at that price point in favor of propriety processes that most do not use. Nobody is setting it and forgetting it in the "Hall In Munich" mode.

 

[SithZedi]

After experimenting with the little cyclops last night, I remembered how frustrating the settings in the Yamaha can be and remembered my post about amps and speakers. The basic(7.2.4) setting would be correct and one would make further adjustments in the Speaker Size settings. All speakers should be set at Small with the Crossover set to one’s liking. The subwoofer would of course be set to Use or a Large size setting would be forced on the Front speakers. Once set to Small, make sure Extra Bass is OFF. One would then set any speakers NOT present in the configuration to None. After doing so, the receiver will reroute info meant for those speakers to others in the current configuration.
View attachment 53767
As for using an external amplifier for the Front speakers, I think Yamaha has really come up short here. Some immediately connected external amps using the XLR pre outs on this thing. Nothing is really gained here and some things are lost.

Even being the flagship at a premium price, the Yamaha RX-A8A only processes as many channels as it powers. There are eleven channels of processing for eleven amps. It should have dumped a big bunch of its proprietary processes and included thirteen channels of processing so one could reassign the Front channel amps for a third pair of height/presence speakers in an Atmos/DTS:X configuration or Top Center/Sound O’ God speakers in an Auro 3D configuration since they knew it was coming in an update.

Some might want to bi-amp and think they can use both pre outs and terminals and still get 11.1 but that is not the case. Bi-amp correctly and you lose two channels of processing. Again, too many limitations at that price point in favor of propriety processes that most do not use. Nobody is setting it and forgetting it in the "Hall In Munich" mode.View attachment 53775

Thanks you so much for circling back. Am going to keep the 7.2.4 setting and try the adjustments. Yeah, the damn manual is challenging. Hall of Munich, ha. I was hoping they would have had a CBGB's setting for the old fans of that place....

 

[VonMagnum]

So much hate and ignorance in this thread....

For "NO content" it's strange how I own 24 movies in Auro-3D (far from all of them too) and a dozen music albums. In fact, Auro-3D passed the 100 music album point last year (try to find 100 Atmos Blu-ray music discs or a single DTS:X one)

Contrary to Gene's statements on the matter too, there are 4K Auro-3D UHDs out there. I just bought Monsters of Man recently and Posessor was just released this month.

More Auro-3D movies were released in the past two years than nearly all previous years combined (odd for a "dead" format).

Frankly, I don't understand the hate. There is absolutely no reason one can't run a combined setup and enjoy content in all three formats. Redtails and Boss Level in particular were awesome in Auro-3D and not available beyond 5.1 or 7.1 in any other format.

The Auro-3D version of Twister blows away the Atmos one for a very simple reason. The sound effects at matched dialog levels are much louder on the Auro-3D version (less compressed sound). The Auro-3D version sounds like my roof is really coming off at one point. The Turbine mediabook comes with both so I can easily compare.

The Monoprice HTP-1 actually has a great Auro layout feature. It uses Top Middle as a dual mono array for Top Surround (VOG). Auro actually encourages array layouts. I set up active mixer front wides and ss#2 speakers and with a couple of impedance matching Monoprice switches, I can have four pairs of side surround arrays here and two surround height (side heights and rear heights). Or I can switch to Top Middle Atmos using "Scatmos" extraction for near discrete output (which also works well with Auro-3D). Total extra investment not counting speakers? About $400 using components off eBay.

Auro-3D music recordings sound like I'm actually there, not listening to a recording of a performance.

Others live the Auromatic up mixer, but I came up with a Sonic Holography multi-channel stereo mode that blows the doors off any music upmixer I've ever heard (11.1 Sonic Holography from multichannel stereo mode and an old Carver outboard unit attached to an audio extractor connected to my Nvidia Shield running KODI + Top Middle Sonic Holography only overhead (Scatmos places all in-phase in Top Middle only). Add 3dB to center channel and reduce overhead by 5dB and stereo al ums sound like discrete 7.1 surround albums with a touch of Atmos. I had a reason to listen to my entire two-channel music collection again.