Dual Subwoofers - what to choose?

[NINaudio]

Servo subwoofers better imo, lots of svs love in this thread

 

[Pogre]

Servo subwoofers better imo, lots of svs love in this thread

That's debatable. Servo subs aren't bad at all, but I'm not convinced you get superior performance from one.

 

[panteragstk]

Damn. Beat me to it.

 

[panteragstk]

That's debatable. Servo subs aren't bad at all, but I'm not convinced you get superior performance from one.

Just like anything else. If they're designed properly, then they usually work well. I know we don't talk about Rythmik all that much, but I've heard good things about them for a long time. Didn't Velodyne make a servo sub for a while?

As for the "they are just better" opinion, maybe. Depends on the situation. Every room is different.

My issue is that if my driver or amp dies, an easy replacement isn't always found. If the company craps out and quits making parts, you're pretty much done.

Passive subs are awesome.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Just like anything else. If they're designed properly, then they usually work well. I know we don't talk about Rythmik all that much, but I've heard good things about them for a long time. Didn't Velodyne make a servo sub for a while?

As for the "they are just better" opinion, maybe. Depends on the situation. Every room is different.

My issue is that if my driver or amp dies, an easy replacement isn't always found. If the company craps out and quits making parts, you're pretty much done.

Passive subs are awesome.

Velodyne was making accelerometer-based servo drivers since 1977. Although I own a Velodyne DD18 Plus servo sub, the servo feature never entered into my purchase decision. Actually it wasn't until I read the AH review written by Josh Ricci that I had ever seen any objective evidence that servo drivers resulted in better performance. Ricci ran tests on the DD18 Plus at the maximum servo gain setting and the minimum servo setting. This was the resulting frequency response graph:

The sub's frequency response is obviously flatter at the maximum servo setting, but, surprisingly, the frequency response is more extended above 80Hz while essentially identical below 20Hz. In the compression tests Ricci found little difference between the max and min servo settings.

Rythmik talks about their servo mechanism lowering system Q, but provides little in the way of data beyond assertions. (Rythmik claims a Q of 0.1) In addition to Velodyne and Rythmik, Infinity and Genesis, to name two, also dabbled with this technology. There may be others.

All of this discussion aside, I'm still not convinced that servo technology is a determining factor in subwoofer sound quality. Given that my DD18 Plus is now ten years old and Velodyne Acoustics is still dysfunctional after being acquired by a German company (David Hall, Velodyne's founder, is now completely focusing on Velodyne Lidar, so he sold the subwoofer company), I'm occasionally thinking about alternatives should the plate amp in the DD18 Plus have problems, and none of the alternatives I'm considering are servo subs. The test data just doesn't seem to support a servo mechanism as a differentiating criteria. The latest ported subs are actually very impressive, and my experience is that my perceived need for big subs just doesn't seem to be justified when running the Salon2s full-range as I do. Also, the MiniDSP products have improved to the point that I really don't need the parametric equalization features that so much attracted me to the Velodyne ten years ago. As I posted in another thread, a leading contender in my mind is a pair of the Monolith 12 ported subs, though I still have a soft spot for the craftsmanship and performance of the Funk Audio products. Such a price difference though...

 

[panteragstk]

Velodyne was making accelerometer-based servo drivers since 1977. Although I own a Velodyne DD18 Plus servo sub, the servo feature never entered into my purchase decision. Actually it wasn't until I read the AH review written by Josh Ricci that I had ever seen any objective evidence that servo drivers resulted in better performance. Ricci ran tests on the DD18 Plus at the maximum servo gain setting and the minimum servo setting. This was the resulting frequency response graph:

View attachment 44082


The sub's frequency response is obviously flatter at the maximum servo setting, but, surprisingly, the frequency response is more extended above 80Hz while essentially identical below 20Hz. In the compression tests Ricci found little difference between the max and min servo settings.

Rythmik talks about their servo mechanism lowering system Q, but provides little in the way of data beyond assertions. (Rythmik claims a Q of 0.1) In addition to Velodyne and Rythmik, Infinity and Genesis, to name two, also dabbled with this technology. There may be others.

All of this discussion aside, I'm still not convinced that servo technology is a determining factor in subwoofer sound quality. Given that my DD18 Plus is now ten years old and Velodyne Acoustics is still dysfunctional after being acquired by a German company (David Hall, Velodyne's founder, is now completely focusing on Velodyne Lidar, so he sold the subwoofer company), I'm occasionally thinking about alternatives should the plate amp in the DD18 Plus have problems, and none of the alternatives I'm considering are servo subs. The test data just doesn't seem to support a servo mechanism as a differentiating criteria. The latest ported subs are actually very impressive, and my experience is that my perceived need for big subs just doesn't seem to be justified when running the Salon2s full-range as I do. Also, the MiniDSP products have improved to the point that I really don't need the parametric equalization features that so much attracted me to the Velodyne ten years ago. As I posted in another thread, a leading contender in my mind is a pair of the Monolith 12 ported subs, though I still have a soft spot for the craftsmanship and performance of the Funk Audio products. Such a price difference though...

This is what I love about this forum. I say something with a bit of information and someone that knows MUCH more comes along and posts with MUCH more info and GRAPHS. Love it.

DD18 Plus was (is) a bad ass sub so replacing it will be fun.

I think the real key is what do the measurements look like for subs that are in the OPs budget, and which one of those that measures well, looks good.

 

[jinjuku]

That box is just too big for the space - I am most limited by the depth of the cabinet - around 19" is about the max before the sub begins encroaching on the room.

Can you DIY again? You could keep your 19" encroachment and increase the height and finish it with a good veneer that you like. I've modeled the current Infinity Kappa 1200W in a dual opposed ported. The drivers are $129 per and an amp would be $599. That leaves a little over $600 for materials.

 

[shadyJ]

Rythmik talks about their servo mechanism lowering system Q, but provides little in the way of data beyond assertions. (Rythmik claims a Q of 0.1) In addition to Velodyne and Rythmik, Infinity and Genesis, to name two, also dabbled with this technology. There may be others.

Paradigm had some servo subs also.

 

[Pogre]

Stryke Audio HE12 is a sealed box with a Dayton Audio 500w plate amp. I actually have a Stryke Audio HE18 in a dual PR box (although the PRs have rotted away) and a Mackie 2400w amp in storage....

Not being familiar with your Mackie amp, it certainly looks like you have enough power on tap for a pair of these.

Okay, they're over budget and 22-1/4" deep so slightly over size, but nice looking subs and another form factor to consider. Plus they're ported.

Signature - SV | RBH Sound

rbhsound.com

 

[lovinthehd]

Maybe just build a new box for the 18....

 

[panteragstk]

Another possible choice is to get some DIY plans for a very capable sub (or two) and have a cabinet maker build and finish the cabinets for you to whatever custom finish you want. Could be a hidden furniture piece.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Just curious... how many folks in this thread have actually set up a system in a room in the 8000-10000 cu-ft size range?

My open house plan means the Living room is open to Kitchen and Dinning room, so the total open space is > 16,000 C.F.

 

[Irvrobinson]

My open house plan means the Living room is open to Kitchen and Dinning room, so the total open space is > 16,000 C.F.

You probably win the prize for first place. My previous house was like that. The family room, where my system was placed, had a large area and volume on it's own (the ceiling was over 20 feet), but there was an adjoining and fully open dining area and a large kitchen. I never measured it all, but I wouldn't be surprised if the total volume was well over 15,000 cu-ft. Worse yet, it was on a suspended floor (it was a three story house), which made bass difficult to contain. And there was a two-story wall of glass behind the speakers. Oh yeah, and the left speaker was about four feet from the side wall and the right speaker was, I dunno, twenty feet from a sidewall. Just thinking about it makes me wonder if headphones would have been the right answer.

I've seen the photos of your listening room, and you're much better off.

 

[CajunLB]

The Rythmic L22 seems interesting. A pair is in budget and would give you 4 -12’s. I think it’s in your size also.

 

[cbecker33]

OK, going to throw another option out there for you: How about the HSU ULS-15 mk2? It does better than the SVS SB3000 at 20 Hz and you can get it in a rosenut finish (maybe higher WAF?). It also fits nicely within your 19"...

It's 19.5" with the grill and it does end up sticking out a bit where I would place it. My wife also brought up a good point - with our dogs a metal grill is probably a wiser move. Good, thought, though - I had this size mocked up on the floor as well.

Can you DIY again? You could keep your 19" encroachment and increase the height and finish it with a good veneer that you like. I've modeled the current Infinity Kappa 1200W in a dual opposed ported. The drivers are $129 per and an amp would be $599. That leaves a little over $600 for materials.

My DIY sub is still raw MDF from 15+ yrs ago....

...You could order the SB3000s and try them out for a few weeks risk free while you make up your mind. Another approach could be a pair of SB3000s now, and another pair down the road. 4 of those, strategically placed might work out really nice.

I think this is the direction I will take. I mocked up some boxes and the SB3000s would be the perfect size. The PC2000 pros would be awfully 'visually heavy' in my room.

I did identify a corner in the room I might be able to put a larger ported sub (that the wife approved of). But it is not convenient to run cable. Maybe 2 SB3000s now and, should I feel the need, a PB3000 in that corner at a later date?

 

[NINaudio]

It's generally not a good idea to mix different types of subs (sealed and ported). It makes getting them integrated together properly much more difficult.

 

[Pogre]

I think this is the direction I will take. I mocked up some boxes and the SB3000s would be the perfect size. The PC2000 pros would be awfully 'visually heavy' in my room.

I did identify a corner in the room I might be able to put a larger ported sub (that the wife approved of). But it is not convenient to run cable. Maybe 2 SB3000s now and, should I feel the need, a PB3000 in that corner at a later date?

What NIN said. Mixing ported with sealed can be very problematic. I would just about want to go with a single (big and powerful in your case) ported over a pair of sealed subs.

So... you found 1 corner. How hard will it be, really, to find 1 more spot and go with a pair of PB3000s..?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Fwiw, here’s what a pair of cylinders look like in my room(non current pic, just one that I could find easily)

Definitely not trying to persuade into PC’s, just giving some visual context.

 

[Trebdp83]

Those are nice and conger up memories of something... oh, yeah, “Whatever it is I think I see... becomes a Tootsie Roll to me!” And I haven’t even had my coffee, yet.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Those are nice and conger up memories of something... oh, yeah, “Whatever it is I think I see... becomes a Tootsie Roll to me!” And I haven’t even had my coffee, yet.

Or possibly the worlds biggest dog log!!!!!