Multi eq app

[Reckel]

Ok I just ran audyssey with no app 5 times and the sub distances were front 12.8ft and rear 5.2ft, same as it has been. The volumes on the subs stayed the same also. I just finished running audyssey with the app and the front sub distances were correct at 12.8ft but it’s still setting the rear at 11.8ft. Now with app the front subs volume went up to -7.0 and the rear went up to -8.0, it seems like the app wants the gain knob turned up?

 

[Reckel]

I listened to a few parts of fury road and age of extinction and there’s really not any impact like I used to have. I would always run my subs with one port open eq1 and q7 and I always had major impact and extension and there’s not much now. I’m going to try two ports open and see what that sounds like

 

[PENG]

I listened to a few parts of fury road and age of extinction and there’s really not any impact like I used to have. I would always run my subs with one port open eq1 and q7 and I always had major impact and extension and there’s not much now. I’m going to try two ports open and see what that sounds like

You shouldn't change anything on the subs after running Audyssey, bad idea..

Audyssey would have flattened the curve so you may be missing some bumps you had with Audyssey off.

If you prefer some boost, try increase the sub level trim settings by 2 to 3 dB. Also, unless you listen to near ref level, with volume at -10 or higher, you should turn DEQ on.

 

[Reckel]

You shouldn't change anything on the subs after running Audyssey, bad idea..

Audyssey would have flattened the curve so you may be missing some bumps you had with Audyssey off.

If you prefer some boost, try increase the sub level trim settings by 2 to 3 dB. Also, unless you listen to near ref level, with volume at -10 or higher, you should turn DEQ on.

Yea I have deq on and never listen at reference. I thought while running audyssey to have subs with one port plugged eq1 and q7, then after audyssey I can unplug the port and switch to eq2? I never touch gain knob after audyssey, always adjust sub trim in avr. I didn’t think I was supposed to run audyssey with a port plugged and eq2?

 

[Reckel]

There is just not the impact I had before. I’m frustrated with the app having different results with distance and sub volume compared to not using the app

 

[Reckel]

I would rather have the subs volume set in the higher negative numbers than lower, that way if I want to add 3-5db in boost I’m not close to zero.

 

[Reckel]

I know this Is asked a thousand times also but should my subs be gained matched or level?

 

[ryanosaur]

I know this Is asked a thousand times also but should my subs be gained matched or level?

Per my comments above, you want to gain match them for Audyssey to work best.

I get your frustration, but you are taking Aud to the limits in your rig.
If you want to push further, with more than two subs, you should dig into REW, MiniDSP, and (unless you have a perfect room) the Geddes technique for multiple Subs.

 

[Reckel]

Per my comments above, you want to gain match them for Audyssey to work best.

I get your frustration, but you are taking Aud to the limits in your rig.
If you want to push further, with more than two subs, you should dig into REW, MiniDSP, and (unless you have a perfect room) the Geddes technique for multiple Subs.

I’ve read stuff on geddes and no way have a perfect room. With the gain matching, I’ve put an spl meter a foot away from sub in their spots and adjusted to a specific dB level and I’ve also moved seats and put one at a time in middle of the room and adjusted to a specific dB level. Which is better? Am I doing anything wrong?

 

[mazersteven]

Welcome to the world of Multiple Subs. LOL

 

[Reckel]

Welcome to the world of Multiple Subs. LOL

Got that right!

 

[Pogre]

There is just not the impact I had before. I’m frustrated with the app having different results with distance and sub volume compared to not using the app

Hey, I got your pm, but you have it closed so I can't reply. I didn't want you to think I was ignoring you, lol.

 

[Pogre]

I don't think he is comparing the EQ results but the distances and volume. I suggested he leave the mic in one position, to make sure the differences were due to the mic not being in the exact same position.

I have run Audyssey with the AVR and with the app many times, and have never experience the kind of differences he's getting. Something is not right, obviously..

That's sort of what I'm getting at with my line of questioning. Inconsistencies with mic positions between calibrations. Agree something isn't right. Short of a defect of some sort I can't figure out what it is tho, so I've been throwing troubleshooting ideas at the wall til something sticks.

 

[Pogre]

Yea I have deq on and never listen at reference. I thought while running audyssey to have subs with one port plugged eq1 and q7, then after audyssey I can unplug the port and switch to eq2? I never touch gain knob after audyssey, always adjust sub trim in avr. I didn’t think I was supposed to run audyssey with a port plugged and eq2?

Yea, that's fine. I'm pretty sure PENG was talking about messing with the gain. You should adust trim levels through your avr like you said.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I’ve read stuff on geddes and no way have a perfect room. With the gain matching, I’ve put an spl meter a foot away from sub in their spots and adjusted to a specific dB level and I’ve also moved seats and put one at a time in middle of the room and adjusted to a specific dB level. Which is better? Am I doing anything wrong?

IMO level matching is more accurate as it based on the locations where the subs actually are. In a perfect room, gain matching can make sense, but that’s gonna be something like a closed room of intentionally selected dimensions. In rooms like most of us have, when subs are often next to different room boundaries, like a cubby on one side and open to the kitchen on the other, gain matching makes no sense to me.

I still can’t offer anything about the inconsistent behavior of the calibrations. Peng seemed to agree that the “consistently inconsistent” nature would be ok as long as you chose one method. I would try and make sure phasing is good for all subs before running audyssey. For example my front two subs are treated by Audyssey as one, but they’re run off a splitter. Due to being symmetrical at the front of the room, they’re actually not. Above each one, the ceiling height is about 3’ different as the ceiling rises from left to right, and the right front sub is almost half way across the expanse of the shared LR and kitchen front wall. The LR is also sunken by a foot, and my third sub at the back left spot is in a part that’s not sunken, and only has 8.5’ above it. Anyway, the right front has to be set at 180°. I verified that by turning on ONLY the front left sub and set db to 70, running the test tone. Then I turned on the right front sub only, set db to 70 then added left sub and adjusted right sub phase until I got the most output. I also verified that was correct by running a tone at my XO point and the result was the same.
Then I leave the front two on, and add the third and do the same test. This leaves me close enough to run audyssey, and finally tweak with my minidsp.
I have a couple other ways I’m considering setting up my subs, but not until winter and I have time...

 

[Reckel]

Hey, I got your pm, but you have it closed so I can't reply. I didn't want you to think I was ignoring you, lol.

Hey, I got your pm, but you have it closed so I can't reply. I didn't want you to think I was ignoring you, lol.

Hey man, I just got back from cutting an oak tree up and haven’t been to bed yet from work last night so I’ll get on here quick before I pass out. I’ll fix that pm man and send it again, yea I noticed last night I screwed that up.

 

[Reckel]

IMO level matching is more accurate as it based on the locations where the subs actually are. In a perfect room, gain matching can make sense, but that’s gonna be something like a closed room of intentionally selected dimensions. In rooms like most of us have, when subs are often next to different room boundaries, like a cubby on one side and open to the kitchen on the other, gain matching makes no sense to me.

I still can’t offer anything about the inconsistent behavior of the calibrations. Peng seemed to agree that the “consistently inconsistent” nature would be ok as long as you chose one method. I would try and make sure phasing is good for all subs before running audyssey. For example my front two subs are treated by Audyssey as one, but they’re run off a splitter. Due to being symmetrical at the front of the room, they’re actually not. Above each one, the ceiling height is about 3’ different as the ceiling rises from left to right, and the right front sub is almost half way across the expanse of the shared LR and kitchen front wall. The LR is also sunken by a foot, and my third sub at the back left spot is in a part that’s not sunken, and only has 8.5’ above it. Anyway, the right front has to be set at 180°. I verified that by turning on ONLY the front left sub and set db to 70, running the test tone. Then I turned on the right front sub only, set db to 70 then added left sub and adjusted right sub phase until I got the most output. I also verified that was correct by running a tone at my XO point and the result was the same.
Then I leave the front two on, and add the third and do the same test. This leaves me close enough to run audyssey, and finally tweak with my minidsp.
I have a couple other ways I’m considering setting up my subs, but not until winter and I have time...

Hey Bill, yea that’s how audyssey sees my front two too, as one because they’re also on a splitter. Funny you brought up the phase thing because I haven’t switched that yet. When I was using the 860 I had to put the rear sub at 180 and it made a big difference. I kinda figured I wouldn’t have to for some reason with getting the 4500 having audyssey and the ability to set two sub distances separately, obviously my head was in my ass.
The app is consistently the same but has not been the same as audyssey without app. Running audyssey without the app has been consistent every time, so idk what’s going on

 

[PENG]

Yea I have deq on and never listen at reference. I thought while running audyssey to have subs with one port plugged eq1 and q7, then after audyssey I can unplug the port and switch to eq2? I never touch gain knob after audyssey, always adjust sub trim in avr. I didn’t think I was supposed to run audyssey with a port plugged and eq2?

If the subs are ported, it is usually better to run them without the ports plugged. The important thing is then, before you run Audyssey, you should make sure the sub(s) ports are NOT plugged.

If you plugged them, ran Audyssey, and then unplugged them then whatever EQ Audyssey applied will not longer be valid/optimum.

If you subs have any EQ settings, I would suggest you don't use them, just let Audyssey does its thing.

As far as the distance difference between using the App and the AVR, if you don't move the mic for either case, you may get some slight difference, but the difference between 11.8 ft and 5.2 ft is just too much. Typically, Audyssey's measured distance (by delay) will be longer than the physical distance.

How far are the rear subs from the back walls and the front walls? Audyssey measures delay, not physical distance, but again I can see a ft or two difference between using the App and the AVR, so what you are getting is really puzzling.

Can you post a picture of how you set up the mic?

 

[ryanosaur]

I would love to See @shadyJ or @Matthew J Poes chime in on why the differences are showing up. Their deeper experiences might shed some light on the conundrum.

Regardless, the line of thought @PENG has expressed, that each Audyssey calibration source is consistent with themselves, should put you a little more at ease. If they were wildly inconsistent within each measuring source (AVR v. App), then I would be more concerned something was wrong.
Bill's advice to look at the phase settings is sound.
For me, the next thing would be to get into measurements and look not just at the FR sweeps and performance of individual speakers/Subs and combinations there of, but Impulse Response too.
I think I have seen it mentioned that Hsu does not use DSP in their Plate Amps. If this is true, there should be no Distance/Delay changes made. Yet something in the App is triggering that change.

Towards your earlier reply, I don't know that setting gain with the Sub at your LP would do. For purposes of getting your front two subs matched up as close as possible, I would do each sub in their respective homes, measuring SPL at you LP. Set it so each sub is producing 67 or 70 dB by themselves, and then try them combined to get the recommended 73dB Audyssey wants. (This would likely require the phase adjustment as part of dialing them both in.)
This of course may be on the anal/OCD side, but getting each sub matched up, then adjusting for phase between the two, then running Audyssey as a combined unit should get them to perform at there best, just short of that deeper REW dive.

If there are Impulse Response differences, you can tinker with distances in the AVR to adjust Sub1 and Sub2, but if there are differences between the two subs up front, a MiniDSP2x4 will be the only salvation... unless you are willing to live with it.

Diving into Geddes is a commitment if you are going to push for best overall results. Poes did a good video on optimizing your room according to Geddes technique. You will need time, and REW to do it, and a willingness to perhaps rearrange all you subs and get them off that front wall.

As always, YMMV, and you are the one you have to please. Well, perhaps a spouse, too.

Ultimately, the only way to get to the bottom of this is measurements. Or you pick AVR Aud or App Aud and just live with it.

Geddes approach to Multi-Sub setup Instructional Video by Matthew Poes

As the title states this is a recording of a talk I gave on the Geddes approach to subwoofer setup. It covers both theory and execution. While the content had direct input from Earl Geddes, the views expressed are my interpretation.

forums.audioholics.com

Multiple Subwoofer after Geddes

mehlau.net

Two Great Articles on Multiple Subwoofers by Dr. Earl Geddes

I have written before on the absolute necessity of multiple subwoofers for high-fidelity reproduction of modal region frequencies in a hom...

seriousaudioblog.blogspot.com

*** I typed this earlier but just saw it didn't post!

 

[Reckel]

I would love to See @shadyJ or @Matthew J Poes chime in on why the differences are showing up. Their deeper experiences might shed some light on the conundrum.

Regardless, the line of thought @PENG has expressed, that each Audyssey calibration source is consistent with themselves, should put you a little more at ease. If they were wildly inconsistent within each measuring source (AVR v. App), then I would be more concerned something was wrong.
Bill's advice to look at the phase settings is sound.
For me, the next thing would be to get into measurements and look not just at the FR sweeps and performance of individual speakers/Subs and combinations there of, but Impulse Response too.
I think I have seen it mentioned that Hsu does not use DSP in their Plate Amps. If this is true, there should be no Distance/Delay changes made. Yet something in the App is triggering that change.

Towards your earlier reply, I don't know that setting gain with the Sub at your LP would do. For purposes of getting your front two subs matched up as close as possible, I would do each sub in their respective homes, measuring SPL at you LP. Set it so each sub is producing 67 or 70 dB by themselves, and then try them combined to get the recommended 73dB Audyssey wants. (This would likely require the phase adjustment as part of dialing them both in.)
This of course may be on the anal/OCD side, but getting each sub matched up, then adjusting for phase between the two, then running Audyssey as a combined unit should get them to perform at there best, just short of that deeper REW dive.

If there are Impulse Response differences, you can tinker with distances in the AVR to adjust Sub1 and Sub2, but if there are differences between the two subs up front, a MiniDSP2x4 will be the only salvation... unless you are willing to live with it.

Diving into Geddes is a commitment if you are going to push for best overall results. Poes did a good video on optimizing your room according to Geddes technique. You will need time, and REW to do it, and a willingness to perhaps rearrange all you subs and get them off that front wall.

As always, YMMV, and you are the one you have to please. Well, perhaps a spouse, too.

Ultimately, the only way to get to the bottom of this is measurements. Or you pick AVR Aud or App Aud and just live with it.

Geddes approach to Multi-Sub setup Instructional Video by Matthew Poes

As the title states this is a recording of a talk I gave on the Geddes approach to subwoofer setup. It covers both theory and execution. While the content had direct input from Earl Geddes, the views expressed are my interpretation.

forums.audioholics.com

Multiple Subwoofer after Geddes

mehlau.net

Two Great Articles on Multiple Subwoofers by Dr. Earl Geddes

I have written before on the absolute necessity of multiple subwoofers for high-fidelity reproduction of modal region frequencies in a hom...

seriousaudioblog.blogspot.com

*** I typed this earlier but just saw it didn't post!

Should I use the level matching screen in the avr when setting dB level or use my spl meter