TLS Guy Audioholic Jedi Oct 30, 2007 27,291 0 113 79 Eagan MN May 27, 2020 #1,281 ATLAudio said: I feel well educated enough. How about *you* elaborate on *your* argument, instead of rather pompous curt replies like this. You took reservation over “synergy” so I’d simply like to make sure I get your meaning. I can best do that with information about your point that isn’t so abridged. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Click to expand... I think what he is getting at is that with moving coil speakers the issue tend to be the angle between voltage and current turning negative. This presents a particular problem if a dip in impedance coincides with a phase angle of -ve 45 say. Electrostatic speakers present a capacitative load where the phase angle often turns positive in the high frequencies especially. This can and does result in some amps going into ultrasonic oscillation. Because it is ultrasonic you can not hear it. This usually blows up the amp. It can also damage the speaker. So if you are going to use electrostatic speakers you need to choose your amp with care. I would not drive one with a receiver for sure. To get the best results from an electrostatic speaker then Quad amps are strongly recommended as they are specifically designed to tolerate these difficult loading conditions. The Quad warranty has always said, "guaranteed to be stable under all loads." Reactions: Mikado463
ATLAudio said: I feel well educated enough. How about *you* elaborate on *your* argument, instead of rather pompous curt replies like this. You took reservation over “synergy” so I’d simply like to make sure I get your meaning. I can best do that with information about your point that isn’t so abridged. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Click to expand... I think what he is getting at is that with moving coil speakers the issue tend to be the angle between voltage and current turning negative. This presents a particular problem if a dip in impedance coincides with a phase angle of -ve 45 say. Electrostatic speakers present a capacitative load where the phase angle often turns positive in the high frequencies especially. This can and does result in some amps going into ultrasonic oscillation. Because it is ultrasonic you can not hear it. This usually blows up the amp. It can also damage the speaker. So if you are going to use electrostatic speakers you need to choose your amp with care. I would not drive one with a receiver for sure. To get the best results from an electrostatic speaker then Quad amps are strongly recommended as they are specifically designed to tolerate these difficult loading conditions. The Quad warranty has always said, "guaranteed to be stable under all loads."
D Danzilla31 Audioholic Spartan May 17, 2018 7,179 0 113 52 May 28, 2020 #1,282 TLS Guy said: I think what he is getting at is that with moving coil speakers the issue tend to be the angle between voltage and current turning negative. This presents a particular problem if a dip in impedance coincides with a phase angle of -ve 45 say. Electrostatic speakers present a capacitative load where the phase angle often turns positive in the high frequencies especially. This can and does result in some amps going into ultrasonic oscillation. Because it is ultrasonic you can not hear it. This usually blows up the amp. It can also damage the speaker. So if you are going to use electrostatic speakers you need to choose your amp with care. I would not drive one with a receiver for sure. To get the best results from an electrostatic speaker then Quad amps are strongly recommended as they are specifically designed to tolerate these difficult loading conditions. The Quad warranty has always said, "guaranteed to be stable under all loads." Click to expand... Where can you go to look at Quad amplifiers? Do they have a link or specific website I can check out. You've brought them up several times and have aroused my interest I'd like to take a look at them if you can point me in the right direction
TLS Guy said: I think what he is getting at is that with moving coil speakers the issue tend to be the angle between voltage and current turning negative. This presents a particular problem if a dip in impedance coincides with a phase angle of -ve 45 say. Electrostatic speakers present a capacitative load where the phase angle often turns positive in the high frequencies especially. This can and does result in some amps going into ultrasonic oscillation. Because it is ultrasonic you can not hear it. This usually blows up the amp. It can also damage the speaker. So if you are going to use electrostatic speakers you need to choose your amp with care. I would not drive one with a receiver for sure. To get the best results from an electrostatic speaker then Quad amps are strongly recommended as they are specifically designed to tolerate these difficult loading conditions. The Quad warranty has always said, "guaranteed to be stable under all loads." Click to expand... Where can you go to look at Quad amplifiers? Do they have a link or specific website I can check out. You've brought them up several times and have aroused my interest I'd like to take a look at them if you can point me in the right direction
TLS Guy Audioholic Jedi Oct 30, 2007 27,291 0 113 79 Eagan MN May 28, 2020 #1,283 Danzilla31 said: Where can you go to look at Quad amplifiers? Do they have a link or specific website I can check out. You've brought them up several times and have aroused my interest I'd like to take a look at them if you can point me in the right direction Click to expand... Quad UK. Their US agents are MoFI distribution out of Chicago. I stick to the older ones, before the Chinese got their "muckers" on the company. Reactions: Danzilla31
Danzilla31 said: Where can you go to look at Quad amplifiers? Do they have a link or specific website I can check out. You've brought them up several times and have aroused my interest I'd like to take a look at them if you can point me in the right direction Click to expand... Quad UK. Their US agents are MoFI distribution out of Chicago. I stick to the older ones, before the Chinese got their "muckers" on the company.
Auditor55 Audioholic Field Marshall Nov 8, 2015 1,500 0 48 65 May 28, 2020 #1,284 "Some amplifiers are audibly inaccurate., Sometimes they are made that way completely intentionally. Others are not. Therefore not all amps sound the same." [the late Arnold Kruger, designer of the ABX comparator for conducting blind tests ] I believe the above is true and it bothers me especially if high-fidelity (transparency) is the goal when purchasing audio equipment.
"Some amplifiers are audibly inaccurate., Sometimes they are made that way completely intentionally. Others are not. Therefore not all amps sound the same." [the late Arnold Kruger, designer of the ABX comparator for conducting blind tests ] I believe the above is true and it bothers me especially if high-fidelity (transparency) is the goal when purchasing audio equipment.
Verdinut Audioholic Spartan Aug 31, 2016 5,997 0 113 86 Montreal, Canada May 28, 2020 #1,285 Auditor55 said: "Some amplifiers are audibly inaccurate., Sometimes they are made that way completely intentionally. Others are not. Therefore not all amps sound the same." [the late Arnold Kruger, designer of the ABX comparator for conducting blind tests ] I believe the above is true and it bothers me especially if high-fidelity (transparency) is the goal when purchasing audio equipment. Click to expand... If you can read and understand specs, and the manufacturer publishes them as they should be published, you shouldn't have to worry if they satisfy what you consider as adequate for a high fidelity amplifier: https://www.ap.com/download/how-to-write-and-read-audio-specifications-2/?wpdmdl=5939&ind=861-NmhdlwDfCcYnyhgzydeb90rjZ_I_JYCWE621VueYCtUZagQJ65FGaGuuSzJqYLkRdzgycN_oHm_n7lLhsg
Auditor55 said: "Some amplifiers are audibly inaccurate., Sometimes they are made that way completely intentionally. Others are not. Therefore not all amps sound the same." [the late Arnold Kruger, designer of the ABX comparator for conducting blind tests ] I believe the above is true and it bothers me especially if high-fidelity (transparency) is the goal when purchasing audio equipment. Click to expand... If you can read and understand specs, and the manufacturer publishes them as they should be published, you shouldn't have to worry if they satisfy what you consider as adequate for a high fidelity amplifier: https://www.ap.com/download/how-to-write-and-read-audio-specifications-2/?wpdmdl=5939&ind=861-NmhdlwDfCcYnyhgzydeb90rjZ_I_JYCWE621VueYCtUZagQJ65FGaGuuSzJqYLkRdzgycN_oHm_n7lLhsg
3db Audioholic Slumlord Sep 7, 2002 16,486 0 113 65 Ottawa Canada May 28, 2020 #1,286 Im curious if the people who voted yes actually arrived at their conclusion using blind controlled listening tests. Reactions: Out-Of-Phase
Im curious if the people who voted yes actually arrived at their conclusion using blind controlled listening tests.
Mikado463 Audioholic Warlord Feb 27, 2016 7,568 0 83 May 28, 2020 #1,287 TLS Guy said: I think what he is getting at is that with moving coil speakers the issue tend to be the angle between voltage and current turning negative. This presents a particular problem if a dip in impedance coincides with a phase angle of -ve 45 say. Electrostatic speakers present a capacitative load where the phase angle often turns positive in the high frequencies especially. This can and does result in some amps going into ultrasonic oscillation. Because it is ultrasonic you can not hear it. This usually blows up the amp. It can also damage the speaker. So if you are going to use electrostatic speakers you need to choose your amp with care. I would not drive one with a receiver for sure. To get the best results from an electrostatic speaker then Quad amps are strongly recommended as they are specifically designed to tolerate these difficult loading conditions. The Quad warranty has always said, "guaranteed to be stable under all loads." Click to expand... Thanks Doc, your description is spot on. Hopefully Mr ATL is able to comprehend ......
TLS Guy said: I think what he is getting at is that with moving coil speakers the issue tend to be the angle between voltage and current turning negative. This presents a particular problem if a dip in impedance coincides with a phase angle of -ve 45 say. Electrostatic speakers present a capacitative load where the phase angle often turns positive in the high frequencies especially. This can and does result in some amps going into ultrasonic oscillation. Because it is ultrasonic you can not hear it. This usually blows up the amp. It can also damage the speaker. So if you are going to use electrostatic speakers you need to choose your amp with care. I would not drive one with a receiver for sure. To get the best results from an electrostatic speaker then Quad amps are strongly recommended as they are specifically designed to tolerate these difficult loading conditions. The Quad warranty has always said, "guaranteed to be stable under all loads." Click to expand... Thanks Doc, your description is spot on. Hopefully Mr ATL is able to comprehend ......
AcuDefTechGuy Audioholic Jedi Jul 10, 2007 34,057 0 113 May 28, 2020 #1,288 Mikado463 said: Thanks Doc, your description is spot on. Hopefully Mr ATL is able to comprehend ...... Click to expand... Can't we all just get along? Reactions: Out-Of-Phase and Danzilla31
Mikado463 said: Thanks Doc, your description is spot on. Hopefully Mr ATL is able to comprehend ...... Click to expand... Can't we all just get along?
AcuDefTechGuy Audioholic Jedi Jul 10, 2007 34,057 0 113 May 28, 2020 #1,289 TLS Guy said: Quad UK. Their US agents are MoFI distribution out of Chicago. I stick to the older ones, before the Chinese got their "muckers" on the company. Click to expand... So you think the new owners messed up the amp now?
TLS Guy said: Quad UK. Their US agents are MoFI distribution out of Chicago. I stick to the older ones, before the Chinese got their "muckers" on the company. Click to expand... So you think the new owners messed up the amp now?
TLS Guy Audioholic Jedi Oct 30, 2007 27,291 0 113 79 Eagan MN May 28, 2020 #1,290 AcuDefTechGuy said: So you think the new owners messed up the amp now? Click to expand... Probably. They certainly don't know how to spec. it. Anyhow my amps are made in England. Reactions: AcuDefTechGuy
AcuDefTechGuy said: So you think the new owners messed up the amp now? Click to expand... Probably. They certainly don't know how to spec. it. Anyhow my amps are made in England.
ATLAudio Senior Audioholic Feb 13, 2015 518 0 43 48 May 28, 2020 #1,291 Mikado463 said: Thanks Doc, your description is spot on. Hopefully Mr ATL is able to comprehend ...... Click to expand... Wow... Well, so much for having a decent discussion. Reading your posts clearly shows you are more on a mission to stroke your ego than anything else. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Reactions: killdozzer, Out-Of-Phase and Pogre
Mikado463 said: Thanks Doc, your description is spot on. Hopefully Mr ATL is able to comprehend ...... Click to expand... Wow... Well, so much for having a decent discussion. Reading your posts clearly shows you are more on a mission to stroke your ego than anything else. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
ATLAudio Senior Audioholic Feb 13, 2015 518 0 43 48 May 28, 2020 #1,292 Verdinut said: If you can read and understand specs, and the manufacturer publishes them as they should be published, you shouldn't have to worry if they satisfy what you consider as adequate for a high fidelity amplifier: https://www.ap.com/download/how-to-write-and-read-audio-specifications-2/?wpdmdl=5939&ind=861-NmhdlwDfCcYnyhgzydeb90rjZ_I_JYCWE621VueYCtUZagQJ65FGaGuuSzJqYLkRdzgycN_oHm_n7lLhsg Click to expand... The problem with stated apecs is that they are far too abridged to be of much use, at least most of the time. Sometimes they are carefully manicured by the marketing department of the manufacturer to tout some sort of capability while not disclosing other trade offs. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Verdinut said: If you can read and understand specs, and the manufacturer publishes them as they should be published, you shouldn't have to worry if they satisfy what you consider as adequate for a high fidelity amplifier: https://www.ap.com/download/how-to-write-and-read-audio-specifications-2/?wpdmdl=5939&ind=861-NmhdlwDfCcYnyhgzydeb90rjZ_I_JYCWE621VueYCtUZagQJ65FGaGuuSzJqYLkRdzgycN_oHm_n7lLhsg Click to expand... The problem with stated apecs is that they are far too abridged to be of much use, at least most of the time. Sometimes they are carefully manicured by the marketing department of the manufacturer to tout some sort of capability while not disclosing other trade offs. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
ATLAudio Senior Audioholic Feb 13, 2015 518 0 43 48 May 28, 2020 #1,293 TLS Guy said: I think what he is getting at is that with moving coil speakers the issue tend to be the angle between voltage and current turning negative. This presents a particular problem if a dip in impedance coincides with a phase angle of -ve 45 say. Electrostatic speakers present a capacitative load where the phase angle often turns positive in the high frequencies especially. This can and does result in some amps going into ultrasonic oscillation. Because it is ultrasonic you can not hear it. This usually blows up the amp. It can also damage the speaker. So if you are going to use electrostatic speakers you need to choose your amp with care. I would not drive one with a receiver for sure. To get the best results from an electrostatic speaker then Quad amps are strongly recommended as they are specifically designed to tolerate these difficult loading conditions. The Quad warranty has always said, "guaranteed to be stable under all loads." Click to expand... What measurement would be reliable to determine that this issue doesn’t happen?
TLS Guy said: I think what he is getting at is that with moving coil speakers the issue tend to be the angle between voltage and current turning negative. This presents a particular problem if a dip in impedance coincides with a phase angle of -ve 45 say. Electrostatic speakers present a capacitative load where the phase angle often turns positive in the high frequencies especially. This can and does result in some amps going into ultrasonic oscillation. Because it is ultrasonic you can not hear it. This usually blows up the amp. It can also damage the speaker. So if you are going to use electrostatic speakers you need to choose your amp with care. I would not drive one with a receiver for sure. To get the best results from an electrostatic speaker then Quad amps are strongly recommended as they are specifically designed to tolerate these difficult loading conditions. The Quad warranty has always said, "guaranteed to be stable under all loads." Click to expand... What measurement would be reliable to determine that this issue doesn’t happen?
Auditor55 Audioholic Field Marshall Nov 8, 2015 1,500 0 48 65 May 28, 2020 #1,294 TLS Guy said: Probably. They certainly don't know how to spec. it. Anyhow my amps are made in England. There have been reports of the Chinese mucking up the ground plane. The way we have sold out to China is a disgrace. Its do good socialist governments at the bottom of it, who always actually impoverish populations further. Click to expand... Hmm
TLS Guy said: Probably. They certainly don't know how to spec. it. Anyhow my amps are made in England. There have been reports of the Chinese mucking up the ground plane. The way we have sold out to China is a disgrace. Its do good socialist governments at the bottom of it, who always actually impoverish populations further. Click to expand... Hmm
Auditor55 Audioholic Field Marshall Nov 8, 2015 1,500 0 48 65 May 28, 2020 #1,295 3db said: Im curious if the people who voted yes actually arrived at their conclusion using blind controlled listening tests. Click to expand... I think DBT is legit. Reactions: Pogre
3db said: Im curious if the people who voted yes actually arrived at their conclusion using blind controlled listening tests. Click to expand... I think DBT is legit.
ATLAudio Senior Audioholic Feb 13, 2015 518 0 43 48 May 28, 2020 #1,296 TLS Guy said: Probably. They certainly don't know how to spec. it. Anyhow my amps are made in England. There have been reports of the Chinese mucking up the ground plane. The way we have sold out to China is a disgrace. Its do good socialist governments at the bottom of it, who always actually impoverish populations further. Click to expand... You don’t sound biased at all. lol Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Reactions: Pogre and AcuDefTechGuy
TLS Guy said: Probably. They certainly don't know how to spec. it. Anyhow my amps are made in England. There have been reports of the Chinese mucking up the ground plane. The way we have sold out to China is a disgrace. Its do good socialist governments at the bottom of it, who always actually impoverish populations further. Click to expand... You don’t sound biased at all. lol Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
AcuDefTechGuy Audioholic Jedi Jul 10, 2007 34,057 0 113 May 28, 2020 #1,297 ATLAudio said: You don’t sound biased at all. lol Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Click to expand... What? No! Why--- TLS Guy biased? C'mon, man. If they're not QUAD, made in England/British designed, or separates components (hells on all AVRs) - forget about it. Reactions: Pogre
ATLAudio said: You don’t sound biased at all. lol Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Click to expand... What? No! Why--- TLS Guy biased? C'mon, man. If they're not QUAD, made in England/British designed, or separates components (hells on all AVRs) - forget about it.
Auditor55 Audioholic Field Marshall Nov 8, 2015 1,500 0 48 65 May 28, 2020 #1,298 AcuDefTechGuy said: What? No! Why--- TLS Guy biased? C'mon, man. If they're not QUAD, made in England/British designed, or separates components (hells on all AVRs) - forget about it. Click to expand... All the above explains why DBT is a must.
AcuDefTechGuy said: What? No! Why--- TLS Guy biased? C'mon, man. If they're not QUAD, made in England/British designed, or separates components (hells on all AVRs) - forget about it. Click to expand... All the above explains why DBT is a must.
AcuDefTechGuy Audioholic Jedi Jul 10, 2007 34,057 0 113 May 28, 2020 #1,299 Auditor55 said: All the above explains why DBT is a must. Click to expand... Well, everyone is biased about something. Like I hate subs and speakers with internal amps. And not everything needs a DBT test. Why? Because it's not THAT important at the end of the day - not important like medical/ drug studies - such as human studies for this COVID-19 vaccine. For audio/video, people will recommend and swear by whatever they've had the most success with.
Auditor55 said: All the above explains why DBT is a must. Click to expand... Well, everyone is biased about something. Like I hate subs and speakers with internal amps. And not everything needs a DBT test. Why? Because it's not THAT important at the end of the day - not important like medical/ drug studies - such as human studies for this COVID-19 vaccine. For audio/video, people will recommend and swear by whatever they've had the most success with.
Pogre Audioholic Slumlord Jul 29, 2016 16,146 0 113 56 Mesa, Arizona May 28, 2020 #1,300 Auditor55 said: All the above explains why DBT is a must. Click to expand... Correct me if I'm wrong, but for some reason I remember you having a different opinion about this. Have you recently changed your mind? This isn't a call out or anything, quite the opposite. It tells me that you don't reject evidence or the scientific process and are willing to see both sides of an argument, and that you're willing to change your view based on available evidence. A lot of folks can't get past their own preconceptions (right or wrong) so they tend to be close minded to alternative thinking or new ideas.
Auditor55 said: All the above explains why DBT is a must. Click to expand... Correct me if I'm wrong, but for some reason I remember you having a different opinion about this. Have you recently changed your mind? This isn't a call out or anything, quite the opposite. It tells me that you don't reject evidence or the scientific process and are willing to see both sides of an argument, and that you're willing to change your view based on available evidence. A lot of folks can't get past their own preconceptions (right or wrong) so they tend to be close minded to alternative thinking or new ideas.
