Can you hear a difference in Sound between Audio Amplifiers?

[lovinthehd]

not necessarily true, whereas a 8 ohm rating is the defacto 'norm' , it's the amps ability to double down(or thereabouts) and remain stable into 4 and even 2 ohm loads that tells of it's ability to handle complex load scenarios.

Lovin ask for an example of synergy and matching of amps to ones speaker choice, 'stats'. Electrostatic speakers present a highly capacitive 'look' to them, combined with an inverse impedance map to conventional 'cone' speakers the selection of amp and speaker wire all comes into play

What do you mean ask for an example of "synergy" and matching of amps to one's speaker choice? You don't know of any specific examples of an amp/speaker combo you've experience with such an audible difference under reasonable comparison methods, you know, just for shits'n'giggles? Let's keep to a fairly standard cone speaker rather than some odd electrostatic to make it even easier. Speaker wire comes into play in an unusual way in this "synergy" scenario?

 

[ski2xblack]

It's not "synergy", it's just physics. Say you have a goofy tube amp with high output impedance. This means that when driving a real speaker it will exhibit linear distortion (frequency response aberrations) that reflects the load the speaker presents to the amp. That means ringing at resonance and elevated response wherever the impedance is high. Want it linear? Use a driver with flat impedance or add impedance leveling zobels. Not magic, just reductive science.

Of course for impressionable audiophiles who don't understand how this stuff works, it's happy fun shopping time, a journey down the buy-and-try primrose path in a misinformed search for that elusive "synergy".

 

[snakeeyes]

I would guess two equally sized amps sufficient in specs for the preamp used and speaker load and of course installed correctly, would both perform well and not change the sound other than making it louder.

Since I haven’t done this comparison firsthand, I’ll vote “crickets” for now.

 

[Mikado463]

What do you mean ask for an example of "synergy" and matching of amps to one's speaker choice? You don't know of any specific examples of an amp/speaker combo you've experience with such an audible difference under reasonable comparison methods, you know, just for shits'n'giggles? Let's keep to a fairly standard cone speaker rather than some odd electrostatic to make it even easier. Speaker wire comes into play in an unusual way in this "synergy" scenario?

wow, what an incredibly 'Stupid' reply !! electrostatics ....odd ?? shows how little you really know !!

I tried in a respectful manner to answer your question (your post #1255) and you come off as the lord all mighty.

The fact that you don't understand the relationship between electrostatic speakers and amplifiers is your issue, I gave you a perfectly good example and all you can come back with is 'shits and giggles'. As for the speaker wire remark, again, shows your lack of knowledge ........

Enjoy your 'cones', put one on your head and go sit in the corner where you belong !

 

[lovinthehd]

wow, what an incredibly 'Stupid' reply !! electrostatics ....odd ?? shows how little you really know !!

I tried in a respectful manner to answer your question (your post #1255) and you come off as the lord all mighty.

The fact that you don't understand the relationship between electrostatic speakers and amplifiers is your issue, I gave you a perfectly good example and all you can come back with is 'shits and giggles'. As for the speaker wire remark, again, shows your lack of knowledge ........

Enjoy your 'cones', put one on your head and go sit in the corner where you belong !

Electrostatics aren't exactly of widespread ownership but if that's all you got, you can go stand in the corner. Synergy is basically audiophool nonsense.

 

[ATLAudio]

wow, what an incredibly 'Stupid' reply !! electrostatics ....odd ?? shows how little you really know !!

I tried in a respectful manner to answer your question (your post #1255) and you come off as the lord all mighty.

The fact that you don't understand the relationship between electrostatic speakers and amplifiers is your issue, I gave you a perfectly good example and all you can come back with is 'shits and giggles'. As for the speaker wire remark, again, shows your lack of knowledge ........

Enjoy your 'cones', put one on your head and go sit in the corner where you belong !

If the amp is over driven by the electrostatic speaker then that is the issue, not some inherent synergy or secret sauce missing.

*of course* you need the amp with the right amount of power and operational bandwidth for the operation. No one questions that, but I don’t think that’s synergy. That’s just 2+2=4. Synergy implies 2+2=8 or some such.

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[TLS Guy]

If the amp is over driven by the electrostatic speaker then that is the issue, not some inherent synergy or secret sauce missing.

*of course* you need the amp with the right amount of power and operational bandwidth for the operation. No one questions that, but I don’t think that’s synergy. That’s just 2+2=4. Synergy implies 2+2=8 or some such.

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No but there is a relationship to output impedance and he minimum impedance of the speaker corrected for phase angle. The output impedance of the amp needs to be at least ten times lower than that number and for optimal results a 100 times lower. My amps have an output impedance of 0.05 ohms which is very low. This is a number the manufacturer wants to keep hidden. I gather a lot of amps are around half an ohm which is too high for a lot of speakers.

 

[KEW]

No but there is a relationship to output impedance and he minimum impedance of the speaker corrected for phase angle. The output impedance of the amp needs to be at least ten times lower than that number and for optimal results a 100 times lower. My amps have an output impedance of 0.05 ohms which is very low. This is a number the manufacturer wants to keep hidden. I gather a lot of amps are around half an ohm which is too high for a lot of speakers.

Thanks, this is a new concept for me!
Do you mean 0.05 as a minimum output impedance? I wouldn't think it would be a fixed value(?).

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks, this is a new concept for me!
Do you mean 0.05 as a minimum output impedance? I wouldn't think it would be a fixed value(?).

It is fixed. What it means is that the lower the resistance and inductance of the output stage the less the response will be affected by impedance and phase angle variations in the speakers. So the lower the impedance of the speaker including correction for adverse phase angle the less response will deviate from linear if the amp has a lower output resistance and inductance. Peter Walker's trick was to parallel multiple output devices. That stated with this first transistor amp the 303 which uses triple output transistors so that is six in each channel. The same with my 909s, which are specked at 1.5 micro Henrys in parallel with 0.05 Ohms. Try and find that for most amps.

In discussions I had with him over the years we often returned to this issue. He felt it is much easier for an amplifier designer to mitigate the problem than the speaker designer and of course in that he is absolutely correct. Not sure that is current practice at least in receivers where the object is roll it out as cheap as possible.

So when members here say that they hear improvement when they add external amplification. I'm inclined to believe them rather than not.

 

[Mikado463]

If the amp is over driven by the electrostatic speaker then that is the issue, not some inherent synergy or secret sauce missing.

*of course* you need the amp with the right amount of power and operational bandwidth for the operation. No one questions that, but I don’t think that’s synergy. That’s just 2+2=4. Synergy implies 2+2=8 or some such.

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sorry that you boys are so hung up on the word synergy, regardless I made the point and gave an example that I at least thought most would understand. In so far as your comment about an amp being 'overdriven' by an electrostatic speaker it goes beyond that also, capacitance issues can come into play.

 

[highfigh]

Wow the poll results are interesting so far. It tells me you guys need to do a little more listening and not so much overthinking

As someone who has over 10 years of audio design experience and about 15 years measuring and analyzing and most importantly LISTENING, I can tell you my experience even in controlled listening tests is amps can and do sound different even if they measure well and aren't driven beyond their means. The degree of audibility differences depend on a lot of factors, including loudspeaker load, quality of the loudspeakers, room acoustics, source material, etc. I think I may need to host a little amp face-off at my place between the Pass Labs, Classe and Emotiva amps. Could be fun (especially if there is ample supply of alcohol involved),despite the amount of work involved.

How dare you tell dyed in the wool audio enthusiasts to stop over-thinking!

I went to a local stereo store for a Len Feldman presentation in the early-'80s and he said there's no difference in sound if the amps spec the same/very similar. I think he was in his 60s at the time, so I think that may have had some impact on what he didn't hear. Being over 60, myself, I KNOW it affected it, but if he used hearing protection and was careful about what his ears were exposed to, I suppose he may have had decent hearing acuity. If he was in the military, I seriously doubt he could hear well.

WRT the alcohol- do you expect physical altercations and if so, is it likely that falling roundhouse and stumbling windmill punches will be thrown?

 

[highfigh]

I agree with you. If it sounds different, then there is a scientific reason behind that is measureable or a person's hearing is falls out of the normal curve. I have listened to a number of amps in the past and if there were differences, they were so minute as to be "imagineable". I would certainly fail a DBT test as would most I'm sure. I'm not going to follow the audiosheeple crowd despite their best efforts to lead us to "greener" pastures. The next thing this site is going to propose is that different cables and interconnects affect sound differently.

But, but, but, cable stands! Batteries on interconnects! Power cords that cure diseases!

 

[Pogre]

not necessarily true, whereas a 8 ohm rating is the defacto 'norm' , it's the amps ability to double down(or thereabouts) and remain stable into 4 and even 2 ohm loads that tells of it's ability to handle complex load scenarios.

Lovin ask for an example of synergy and matching of amps to ones speaker choice, 'stats'. Electrostatic speakers present a highly capacitive 'look' to them, combined with an inverse impedance map to conventional 'cone' speakers the selection of amp and speaker wire all comes into play

Special needs speakers require special amplification. That makes sense to me. I already conceded that.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

"The main reason to measure audio is to learn if a device is good enough to sound transparent. All transparent devices by definition by definition sound the same because they don't change to sound enough to be noticed even when listened carefully" [Ethan Winer -AES Damn Lies Workshop]

Do you agree, particularly in regards to amplifiers, with the above statement?

Do you agree that high fidelity is synonymous with audio transparency?

Yeah. I agree.

 

[ATLAudio]

sorry that you boys are so hung up on the word synergy, regardless I made the point and gave an example that I at least thought most would understand. In so far as your comment about an amp being 'overdriven' by an electrostatic speaker it goes beyond that also, capacitance issues can come into play.

Sorry Chief, but yeah, words matter. I have no idea how to understand a concept or argument but to read the words and discuss them as I understand them.

How can this go beyond “overdriven?” What do you mean by capacitance?


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[Mikado463]

How can this go beyond “overdriven?” What do you mean by capacitance?


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perhaps you need to read up on the basics of an electrostatic speaker.

 

[Pogre]

perhaps you need to read up on the basics of an electrostatic speaker.

Does the op have electrostats? Do many people at all own electrostats compared to say, those who own cone speakers? It's my understanding that the point is more or less under "normal" circumstances with "normal" speakers. I don't think anyone here denies that outliers like electrostats and certain other boutique brands require more robust amplification. I don't think anyone buying electrostatic speakers is planning to run them with an AVR or entry level amplifier. Definitely not something rated for only 8 ohms.

It's like having a discussion about the texture of apples and you're pointing out that they don't taste like canteloupes.

 

[NINaudio]

To be fair, we're on a forum devoted to audio and the electronics to reproduce it, and capacitance is something that is a fundamental part of most circuits.

 

[Mikado463]

Does the op have electrostats?

I have no clue, this thread was started 7 years ago ........

Do many people at all own electrostats compared to say, those who own cone speakers?

of course not......

It's my understanding that the point is more or less under "normal" circumstances with "normal" speakers.

my response with regards to 'stat's was done in response to Lovins asking of an example of an amp / speaker combination. Then a select few got their panties all in a bind ......

I don't think anyone here denies that outliers like electrostats and certain other boutique brands require more robust amplification. I don't think anyone buying electrostatic speakers is planning to run them with an AVR or entry level amplifier. Definitely not something rated for only 8 ohms.

exactly, to which I responded to you quite a few posts back ......

 

[ATLAudio]

perhaps you need to read up on the basics of an electrostatic speaker.

I feel well educated enough. How about *you* elaborate on *your* argument, instead of rather pompous curt replies like this. You took reservation over “synergy” so I’d simply like to make sure I get your meaning. I can best do that with information about your point that isn’t so abridged.


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