The popular Outlaw M2200 mono block power amp

[PENG]

I have spent some time going over the nice images @John Galt posted and must thank him again for that.
so base on specs, @KEW did a nice job comparing the two (A300 vs M2200).

Based on the info shown by the photos, one can immediate see the following differences, though there are doubts on the Outlaw's PS capacitance and the transformers current ratings for both units.

A300:

- smaller transformer, lower voltage also, 43.5 V vs 53.6 V, that means the difference in max output into 8 ohms between the two should be a little more than 150 Vs 200 V as (53.6/43.5)^2 = 1.5183, so if the A300 is rated 150 W, the M2200 could be rated for 150*1.5183 - 227.75 W.

- Apparently a little more P/S capacitance, 2X10,000 uf (see Outlaw's below)

- Have two fans, and the heat sinks are obviously undersized and therefore the fans are needed, and as John already confirmed, will fire up when in use.

M2200:

- As mentioned above, the TX sec voltage is rated 53.6 V, that gives it an advantage in driving 8 ohm loads.
- The VA size seems limited as the current seems to be rated only 4.5 A, I have no idea how it could be rated 300 W into 4 ohms unless that 4.5 A on the nameplate is not really the maximum rated current. Hard to say without seeing the full data sheet.
- The heat sinks look much beefier than the A300, even for class AB, let alone it is the fact that it is class G.

Overall, I would take the M2200 for $299 each when on sale, especially for driving 8 ohm nominal speakers. The A300 may be do better, relatively speaking, for 4 ohm speakers but then you would have to put up with the fan noise. So in the end, the Outlaw with a fan on top may still be a better way to go.

I can't really say too much more without seeing the data sheets for the PS transformers and confirmation by Outlaw on the blocking capacitance that they claimed 2X10,000 uf on their website but the photos show 2X6,800 uf. The photos also show 2 other smaller caps but I could not see the nameplate info. If they are also 100 V rated and are wired in parallel with the 2X6,800 uf ones then it might total to 20,000 uf, otherwise Outlaw would have something explanation to do.

 

[John Galt]

Wow!
Looking at the thread you linked, it is sad to see how Emotiva has strayed from their earlier attitude of customer service/participation!
The Emotiva rep, KeithL is more in the role of damage control/spin (which any rep would do), but then when they are asked if the defect is normal, Emotiva has not responded since asked 12/11/19! I have to wonder if the new ownership is planning to milk the name for what they can then liquidate the company!
I guess they are no longer a strictly ID company, but to turn your back on an Emotiva Forum thread about a likely defective concern without any comment seems pretty cavalier/reckless for a company that built its reputation on the internet. ...and the Emotiva fan boys who are trying to maintain a positive spin are left out on a limb.
Combined with the way they refused to repair Gene's amplifier, Emotive is off of my recommend list. I think Danny Laufmann (sp?) is still designing their amps and I am sure they are still solid basic designs. I suspect that Danny would have rather spent more time integrating a cooling system when they established the A300 got hot, but the new management restricted his time/budget for this project. I say this because all of the design engineers I know take quite a bit of pride in doing things well when they have the freedom to.
But my point is Emotiva as a company has lost a lot thanks to policies that do not seem in it for the long haul. They are still reasonable products at fairly low prices, but do not represent the bargains of the past. As a matter of principle, I would stay away unless you are getting an especially good deal/discount.

Edit: But @John Galt and the Outlaw 2200, definitely wait on the forthcoming measurements from Amir before you settle on the 2200!

Hopefully the review is in before the return window closes on the 2200s.

I hope I haven‘t overstated the heating issue on the 2200s...they only got hot when I was playing Metallica & AC/DC at as high a volume as I dared (maybe 95 dB at my listening position). Similar music at a more sane volume ~80 dB resulted in the 2200s just getting warm.

 

[John Galt]

I have spent some time going over the nice images @John Galt posted and must thank him again for that.
so base on specs, @KEW did a nice job comparing the two (A300 vs M2200).

Based on the info shown by the photos, one can immediate see the following differences, though there are doubts on the Outlaw's PS capacitance and the transformers current ratings for both units.

A300:

- smaller transformer, lower voltage also, 43.5 V vs 53.6 V, that means the difference in max output into 8 ohms between the two should be a little more than 150 Vs 200 V as (53.6/43.5)^2 = 1.5183, so if the A300 is rated 150 W, the M2200 could be rated for 150*1.5183 - 227.75 W.

- Apparently a little more P/S capacitance, 2X10,000 uf (see Outlaw's below)

- Have two fans, and the heat sinks are obviously undersized and therefore the fans are needed, and as John already confirmed, will fire up when in use.

M2200:

- As mentioned above, the TX sec voltage is rated 53.6 V, that gives it an advantage in driving 8 ohm loads.
- The VA size seems limited as the current seems to be rated only 4.5 A, I have no idea how it could be rated 300 W into 4 ohms unless that 4.5 A on the nameplate is not really the maximum rated current. Hard to say without seeing the full data sheet.
- The heat sinks look much beefier than the A300, even for class AB, let alone it is the fact that it is class G.

Overall, I would take the M2200 for $299 each when on sale, especially for driving 8 ohm nominal speakers. The A300 may be do better, relatively speaking, for 4 ohm speakers but then you would have to put up with the fan noise. So in the end, the Outlaw with a fan on top may still be a better way to go.

I can't really say too much more without seeing the data sheets for the PS transformers and confirmation by Outlaw on the blocking capacitance.

3 x 2200s for $799 (buy 2 get one free right now) seems like a pretty good deal then, as long as there aren’t undiscovered gremlins...

Any thoughts on the advertised unbalanced input sensitivity between the two, with the 2200 @ 850 mV and the A-300 @ 1.2 V? My Denon X3500H is rated at 1.2 V on the pre-outs, which steered me (perhaps incorrectly) to amps with higher input sensitivity per some of Gene’s videos. Am I correct that higher sensitivity is better for my application, and I may not get the most out of bigger amps with ~1.7 V sensitivity?

Thanks for the analysis PENG!

 

[KEW]

Hopefully the review is in before the return window closes on the 2200s.

My very best guess at when testing will be done is 2/20/2020 (seems like an appropriate date to test the 2200 ).
However, since Amir is doing this as a generous service to the audio community, understand that this is not a firm date!

I hope I haven‘t overstated the heating issue on the 2200s...they only got hot when I was playing Metallica & AC/DC at as high a volume as I dared (maybe 95 dB at my listening position). Similar music at a more sane volume ~80 dB resulted in the 2200s just getting warm.

I appreciate that you clarified earlier that these were rather extreme conditions (further exacerbated by a very demanding speaker). Specifically for you, if these conditions represent your usage habits, you certainly have a valid concern and it would suck to have the 2200's (or A300) die on you. If it is a rare instance, probably not a big concern, but I would still use the AC infinity cooling fans like I linked because they are so inexpensive and quiet (leaving them on low avoids the higher noise level during spin up which has been an annoyance on some other units)! It is almost free insurance that they live a long happy life and should one of these fans die or start getting noisy, another $22 and you've got replacements!
I also have one of the more expensive AC Infinity units that exhausts to the rear for my AVR located in tight space in a cabinet. It works well, but does make more noise because it is working in such tight tolerances. Closing the glass door in front of it eliminates the noise under normal conditions, I can still hear it at my LP if I listen for it during a pause in the sound if it is late at night and there is no other source of sound running in the house (like HVAC, refrigerator, etc). I can get away with closing the front door because I drilled holes in the shelf to feed air into the AVR bottom vents and cut a hole low in the lower back wall of the cabinet to draw air into the cabinet well below the unit's exhaust (since hot air rises).

 

[John Galt]

My very best guess at when testing will be done is 2/20/2020 (seems like an appropriate date to test the 2200 ).
However, since Amir is doing this as a generous service to the audio community, understand that this is not a firm date!

I appreciate that you clarified earlier that these were rather extreme conditions (further exacerbated by a very demanding speaker). Specifically for you, if these conditions represent your usage habits, you certainly have a valid concern and it would suck to have the 2200's (or A300) die on you. If it is a rare instance, probably not a big concern, but I would still use the AC infinity cooling fans like I linked because they are so inexpensive and quiet (leaving them on low avoids the higher noise level during spin up which has been an annoyance on some other units)! It is almost free insurance that they live a long happy life and should one of these fans die or start getting noisy, another $22 and you've got replacements!
I also have one of the more expensive AC Infinity units that exhausts to the rear for my AVR located in tight space in a cabinet. It works well, but does make more noise because it is working in such tight tolerances. Closing the glass door in front of it eliminates the noise under normal conditions, I can still hear it at my LP if I listen for it during a pause in the sound if it is late at night and there is no other source of sound running in the house (like HVAC, refrigerator, etc). I can get away with closing the front door because I drilled holes in the shelf to feed air into the AVR bottom vents and cut a hole low in the lower back wall of the cabinet to draw air into the cabinet well below the unit's exhaust (since hot air rises).

I’ll definitely keep a close eye on the temps, but I didn’t experience any issues last night with hours of music that was loud, but not crazy rock music loud (Jazz, Dire Straits and not AC/DC). My Apple Watch noise meter was ~80 dB, which is a more healthy volume anyway.

If heat becomes an issue I’ll just get a front venting fan with an automatic thermostat, no big deal. My setup is a completely wide open glass shelf setup, so removing heat is relatively easy. I really don’t think it will be an issue.

The lesson to me is that these B&Ws probably just aren’t designed to play highly compressed rock at ear splitting levels, and that’s ok. I listen to many music genres and the 683 S2s sound great with my current setup.

Thanks again for your thoughts and opinions!

 

[KEW]

Based on the info shown by the photos, one can immediate see the following differences, though there are doubts on the Outlaw's PS capacitance and the transformers current ratings for both units.
A300:
- Apparently a little more P/S capacitance, 2X10,000 uf (see Outlaw's below)

I think you missed stating the capacitance of the Outlaw, which is 2X6,800 uf.
...and this is a perfect learning opportunity for me - I am in the right place at the right time to actually stand a chance of understanding what you say on this and remembering it!

A300:
- smaller transformer, lower voltage also, 43.5 V vs 53.6 V, that means the difference in max output into 8 ohms between the two should be a little more than 150 Vs 200 V as (53.6/43.5)^2 = 1.5183, so if the A300 is rated 150 W, the M2200 could be rated for 150*1.5183 - 227.75 W.

So, I guess you could say that Outlaw chose to put more money into the transformer (for steady power capability) while Emotiva chose to put money into the capacitors (for extra headroom for the peaks). Any comments on which is better to have more of (I suspect the answer is it depends, LOL)?

Also, It looks like the Emotiva capacitors are 10,000 uf at 71v (I think I am reading it right) while the Outlaw is 6,800 uf at 100v. I thought I remembered reading that the voltage rating of the capacitors made a difference. It seems like I remember Gene calling out Emotiva for claiming a very high uf rating when the lower voltage rating actually cut the effective uf in half (that was not for the A300, and IIRC the capacitors in that one were down around 50v)!

 

[Pogre]

My very best guess at when testing will be done is 2/20/2020 (seems like an appropriate date to test the 2200 ).
However, since Amir is doing this as a generous service to the audio community, understand that this is not a firm date!

I appreciate that you clarified earlier that these were rather extreme conditions (further exacerbated by a very demanding speaker). Specifically for you, if these conditions represent your usage habits, you certainly have a valid concern and it would suck to have the 2200's (or A300) die on you. If it is a rare instance, probably not a big concern, but I would still use the AC infinity cooling fans like I linked because they are so inexpensive and quiet (leaving them on low avoids the higher noise level during spin up which has been an annoyance on some other units)! It is almost free insurance that they live a long happy life and should one of these fans die or start getting noisy, another $22 and you've got replacements!
I also have one of the more expensive AC Infinity units that exhausts to the rear for my AVR located in tight space in a cabinet. It works well, but does make more noise because it is working in such tight tolerances. Closing the glass door in front of it eliminates the noise under normal conditions, I can still hear it at my LP if I listen for it during a pause in the sound if it is late at night and there is no other source of sound running in the house (like HVAC, refrigerator, etc). I can get away with closing the front door because I drilled holes in the shelf to feed air into the AVR bottom vents and cut a hole low in the lower back wall of the cabinet to draw air into the cabinet well below the unit's exhaust (since hot air rises).

Not to drag this off topic, but I've been meaning to thank you for the suggestion to turn eco on on my Marantz since I got the separate amplifier. I don't even have the fan on it anymore and it only gets warm now. I took it off altogether and put it away.

 

[Gmoney]

I think you missed stating the capacitance of the Outlaw, which is 2X6,800 uf.
...and this is a perfect learning opportunity for me - I am in the right place at the right time to actually stand a chance of understanding what you say on this and remembering it!


So, I guess you could say that Outlaw chose to put more money into the transformer (for steady power capability) while Emotiva chose to put money into the capacitors (for extra headroom for the peaks). Any comments on which is better to have more of (I suspect the answer is it depends, LOL)?

Also, It looks like the Emotiva capacitors are 10,000 uf at 71v (I think I am reading it right) while the Outlaw is 6,800 uf at 100v. I thought I remembered reading that the voltage rating of the capacitors made a difference. It seems like I remember Gene calling out Emotiva for claiming a very high uf rating when the lower voltage rating actually cut the effective uf in half (that was not for the A300, and IIRC the capacitors in that one were down around 50v)!

Yep, PENG’s post are good, you ain’t to bad yourself KEW, you pointed out the Caps in the a300 EMO’s look good till a more In-depth analysis of them.
I would bet that a300 runs out of power way before the Outlaw amp does. I’d take a bigger power supply over more “Pop”. EMO’s aren’t bad just not as good as they say.

 

[KEW]

Not to drag this off topic, but I've been meaning to thank you for the suggestion to turn eco on on my Marantz since I got the separate amplifier. I don't even have the fan on it anymore and it only gets warm now. I took it off altogether and put it away.

Yeah, if you are running ECO, as long as you have the clearances for good natural convection, you are good!

 

[KEW]

Yep, PENG’s post are good, you ain’t to bad yourself KEW, you pointed out the Caps in the a300 EMO’s look good till a more In-depth analysis of them.
I would bet that a300 runs out of power way before the Outlaw amp does. I’d take a bigger power supply over more “Pop”. EMO’s aren’t bad just not as good as they say.

The sad thing is that that they kind of did used to be!

 

[Gmoney]

The sad thing is that that they kind of did used to be!

Has Emotiva sold the company? Back in 2011 I picked up two of their UPA-1 monoblock amps at 399 each. They where 200 @ 8 Ohms they had 6 power Transistors at the rail plus 8 Capacitors @ 10,000 each. Much better than anything they have out now for the price.

 

[John Galt]

I think you missed stating the capacitance of the Outlaw, which is 2X6,800 uf.
...and this is a perfect learning opportunity for me - I am in the right place at the right time to actually stand a chance of understanding what you say on this and remembering it!


So, I guess you could say that Outlaw chose to put more money into the transformer (for steady power capability) while Emotiva chose to put money into the capacitors (for extra headroom for the peaks). Any comments on which is better to have more of (I suspect the answer is it depends, LOL)?

Also, It looks like the Emotiva capacitors are 10,000 uf at 71v (I think I am reading it right) while the Outlaw is 6,800 uf at 100v. I thought I remembered reading that the voltage rating of the capacitors made a difference. It seems like I remember Gene calling out Emotiva for claiming a very high uf rating when the lower voltage rating actually cut the effective uf in half (that was not for the A300, and IIRC the capacitors in that one were down around 50v)!

@KEW Researching the topic of capacitor voltage ratings and found this interesting, but doesnt help answer the capacitance rating to voltage comparison.

FWIW, I’ve read forum posts about caps blowing in higher end Emo amps : http://www.learningaboutelectronics.com/Articles/What-does-the-voltage-rating-on-a-capacitor-mean

”Keep in mind that a good rule for choosing the voltage ratings for capacitors is not to choose the exact voltage rating that the power supply will supply it. It is normally recommended to give a good amount of room when choosing the voltage rating of a capacitor. Meaning, if you want a capacitor to hold 25 volts, don't choose exactly a 25 volt-rated capacitor. Leave some room for a safety margin just in case the power supply voltage ever increased due to any reasons. If you measured the voltage of a 9V battery supply, you would notice that it reads above 9 volts when it's new and has full life. If you used an exact 9-volt rated capacitor, it would be exposed to a higher voltage than the maximum specified voltage (the voltage rating). Usually, in a case such as this, it shouldn't be a problem, but nevertheless, it's a good safety margin and engineering practice to do this.

You can't really go wrong choosing a higher voltage-rated capacitor than the voltage that the power supply will supply it, but you can definitely go wrong choosing a lower voltage-rated capacitor than the voltage that it will be exposed to. If you charge up a capacitor with a lower voltage rating than the voltage that the power supply will supply it, you risk the chance of the capacitor exploding and becoming defective and unusable. So don't expose a capacitor to a higher voltage than its voltage rating. The voltage rating is the maximum voltage that a capacitor is meant to be exposed to and can store. Some say a good engineering practice is to choose a capacitor that has double the voltage rating than the power supply voltage you will use to charge it. So if a capacitor is going to be exposed to 25 volts, to be on the safe side, it's best to use a 50 volt-rated capacitor.”

 

[PENG]

3 x 2200s for $799 (buy 2 get one free right now) seems like a pretty good deal then, as long as there aren’t undiscovered gremlins...

Any thoughts on the advertised unbalanced input sensitivity between the two, with the 2200 @ 850 mV and the A-300 @ 1.2 V?

The 850 mV is definitely a typo or mistake. I created a ticket to ask Outlaw to confirm the unbalanced input sensitivity as well as the total PS capacitance, let's see if they would response to my questions.

My Denon X3500H is rated at 1.2 V on the pre-outs, which steered me (perhaps incorrectly) to amps with higher input sensitivity per some of Gene’s videos. Am I correct that higher sensitivity is better for my application, and I may not get the most out of bigger amps with ~1.7 V sensitivity

You are correct, but the M2200's unbalanced input sensitivity is closer to 1.5 V, i.e. the gain would be just under 29 dB. The X3500H can output up to 1.5 V clean by Amir's standard and at 2 V the THD+N was a touch higher than 0.02% iirc as measured by ASR. That would be a horrible number according to Amir, but it really is still quite good practically speaking for people not equipped with golden ears. The X3600H should do better for stereo use because you can reassign FL and FR to have them disconnected from the pre-amps.

 

[John Galt]

The 850 mV is definitely a typo or mistake. I created a ticket to ask Outlaw to confirm the unbalanced input sensitivity as well as the total PS capacitance, let's see if they would response to my questions.



You are correct, but the M2200's unbalanced input sensitivity is closer to 1.5 V, i.e. the gain would be just under 29 dB. The X3500H can output up to 1.5 V clean by Amir's standard and at 2 V the THD+N was a touch higher than 0.02% iirc as measured by ASR. That would be a horrible number according to Amir, but it really is still quite good practically speaking for people not equipped with golden ears. The X3600H should do better for stereo use because you can reassign FL and FR to have them disconnected from the pre-amps.

I thought that these direct to customer online guys were supposed to be more transparent, honest, and everything the big guys they’re competing against haven’t been

 

[ryanosaur]

If I understand correctly, Outlaw is on the conservative side when it comes to their claims. @PENG , your thoughts?

 

[John Galt]

If I understand correctly, Outlaw is on the conservative side when it comes to their claims. @PENG , your thoughts?

That seems to be the consensus to me, for what that’s worth.

 

[PENG]

I think you missed stating the capacitance of the Outlaw, which is 2X6,800 uf.

I definitely included that part but it somehow got deleted, thanks again to you and the edit feature so please re-read my post to see if it makes more sense now.

So, I guess you could say that Outlaw chose to put more money into the transformer (for steady power capability) while Emotiva chose to put money into the capacitors (for extra headroom for the peaks). Any comments on which is better to have more of (I suspect the answer is it depends, LOL)?

I wouldn't say that is the case because the A300 is only rated 150 W so the transformer can be smaller than the M2200's. As you noted, the M2200's caps are rated 100 V so it has the potential to do better on dynamic peak output. Then again, 71 V is still good for the 150 W rated A300. It depends, mostly on the rated output. The M2200 to A300's power output ratio is 200/150 = 4:3 so you can do the math and see that the transformer's and caps rated voltages are sort of sized accordingly, with a slight edge to the M2200 on both counts, while the A300 has the edge is in terms of total storage capacitance.

Also, It looks like the Emotiva capacitors are 10,000 uf at 71v (I think I am reading it right) while the Outlaw is 6,800 uf at 100v. I thought I remembered reading that the voltage rating of the capacitors made a difference. It seems like I remember Gene calling out Emotiva for claiming a very high uf rating when the lower voltage rating actually cut the effective uf in half (that was not for the A300, and IIRC the capacitors in that one were down around 50v)!

I thought Gene was referring to the Outlaw M5000. The A300's are rated 71 V and that's adequate.

 

[PENG]

If I understand correctly, Outlaw is on the conservative side when it comes to their claims. @PENG , your thoughts?

I would consider it adequate for class AB design, but for class G, one may consider it on the generous side. That's just my opinion. As I mentioned before, I would bet on ASR's bench, it would just meet, but not exceed its power output specs based on say, 0.1% THD. Obviously let's all hope I lose the bet.

 

[Gmoney]

I definitely included that part but it somehow got deleted, thanks again to you and the edit feature so please re-read my post to see if it makes more sense now.



I wouldn't say that is the case because the A300 is only rated 150 W so the transformer can be smaller than the M2200's. As you noted, the M2200's caps are rated 100 V so it has the potential to do better on dynamic peak output. Then again, 71 V is still good for the 150 W rated A300. It depends, mostly on the rated output. The M2200 to A300's power output ratio is 200/150 = 4:3 so you can do the math and see that the transformer's and caps rated voltages are sort of sized accordingly, with a slight edge to the M2200 on both counts, while the A300 has the edge is in terms of total storage capacitance.



I thought Gene was referring to the Outlaw M5000. The A300's are rated 71 V and that's adequate.

PENG, so EMO’s a300 seems to be a good deal of a amp at 399. Umm 150 X 2 @ 8 Ohms I may pick one up

 

[PENG]

PENG, so EMO’s a300 seems to be a good deal of a amp at 399. Umm 150 X 2 @ 8 Ohms I may pick one up

$300W for $399 does seem like a better value than the Outlaw Monoblock. My only concern is the fan noise, so if you end up getting one, make sure you get a quiet sample within the return window. IMO the Outlaw could also be considered a better value if you value fanless, and monoblock feature, but only for the sale price of $299, or the buy two get one free deal at full price.

The only thing I am critical of Outlaw is their poor/confusing/inconsistent website specs on the gain/input sensitivities for the balanced/unbalance input and the power supply caps. It is really inexcusable for them not to publish those important specs accurately and in more details.