The popular Outlaw M2200 mono block power amp

How likely are you to buy this Monoblock?

  • 100%

    Votes: 7 14.0%
  • 50%

    Votes: 11 22.0%
  • 0% - I have no need for any more amps

    Votes: 15 30.0%
  • 0% - I might change amps, but not these amps

    Votes: 3 6.0%
  • 0% - I want to match my amps with Pre-pro and I don’t own an Outlaw Pre-Pro

    Votes: 1 2.0%
  • What is a monoblock???

    Votes: 1 2.0%
  • Already have one or more

    Votes: 12 24.0%

  • Total voters
    50
Gmoney

Gmoney

Audioholic Chief
$300W for $399 does seem like a better value than the Outlaw Monoblock. My only concern is the fan noise, so if you end up getting one, make sure you get a quiet sample within the return window. IMO the Outlaw could also be considered a better value if you value fanless, and monoblock feature, but only for the sale price of $299, or the buy two get one free deal at full price.

The only thing I am critical of Outlaw is their poor/confusing/inconsistent website specs on the gain/input sensitivities for the balanced/unbalance input and the power supply caps. It is really inexcusable for them not to publish those important specs accurately and in more details.
Thank you PENG, Your amp Knowledge is Valuable to us on AH.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Overlord
I thought that these direct to customer online guys were supposed to be more transparent, honest, and everything the big guys they’re competing against haven’t been
Well in this case they certainly left me guessing. The 1.5 V (approx) unbalanced input sensitivity is based on collaborating information I could gather, the official Outlaw specs as you know, is 850 mV that is ridiculously high. Also, about a year ago the same website had it at 1.7 V for both balanced and unbalanced if I remember right. I actually called them twice on the phone at the time about the apparent inconsistency, and got different answer each time, from two different persons, so I gave up seeking the truth/official number.

It is not hard to figure out what it is, simply by taking measurements with a voltmeter, play a 1kHz tone, and the results can be collaborated with the Audyssey auto setup on the level trims, by running setup twice using the M2200 and another amp with known input sensitivity such as the internal amps of the AVR. The point is, as you said, they should be more transparent about the product specs, especially such important ones.
 
John Galt

John Galt

Audioholic Intern
I
I have spent some time going over the nice images @John Galt posted and must thank him again for that.
so base on specs, @KEW did a nice job comparing the two (A300 vs M2200).

Based on the info shown by the photos, one can immediate see the following differences, though there are doubts on the Outlaw's PS capacitance and the transformers current ratings for both units.

A300:

- smaller transformer, lower voltage also, 43.5 V vs 53.6 V, that means the difference in max output into 8 ohms between the two should be a little more than 150 Vs 200 V as (53.6/43.5)^2 = 1.5183, so if the A300 is rated 150 W, the M2200 could be rated for 150*1.5183 - 227.75 W.

- Apparently a little more P/S capacitance, 2X10,000 uf (see Outlaw's below)

- Have two fans, and the heat sinks are obviously undersized and therefore the fans are needed, and as John already confirmed, will fire up when in use.

M2200:

- As mentioned above, the TX sec voltage is rated 53.6 V, that gives it an advantage in driving 8 ohm loads.
- The VA size seems limited as the current seems to be rated only 4.5 A, I have no idea how it could be rated 300 W into 4 ohms unless that 4.5 A on the nameplate is not really the maximum rated current. Hard to say without seeing the full data sheet.
- The heat sinks look much beefier than the A300, even for class AB, let alone it is the fact that it is class G.

Overall, I would take the M2200 for $299 each when on sale, especially for driving 8 ohm nominal speakers. The A300 may be do better, relatively speaking, for 4 ohm speakers but then you would have to put up with the fan noise. So in the end, the Outlaw with a fan on top may still be a better way to go.

I can't really say too much more without seeing the data sheets for the PS transformers and confirmation by Outlaw on the blocking capacitance that they claimed 2X10,000 uf on their website but the photos show 2X6,800 uf. The photos also show 2 other smaller caps but I could not see the nameplate info. If they are also 100 V rated and are wired in parallel with the 2X6,800 uf ones then it might total to 20,000 uf, otherwise Outlaw would have something explanation to do.
Are these the smaller caps that you’re referring to on the 2200? 3300 uF, 50 V.

I uploaded the best quality that the forum would allow, but I can email the originals if you want.

62D2AA74-6FEA-49B3-8A97-17B3AE34BC05.jpeg
 
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Gmoney

Gmoney

Audioholic Chief
$300W for $399 does seem like a better value than the Outlaw Monoblock. My only concern is the fan noise, so if you end up getting one, make sure you get a quiet sample within the return window. IMO the Outlaw could also be considered a better value if you value fanless, and monoblock feature, but only for the sale price of $299, or the buy two get one free deal at full price.

The only thing I am critical of Outlaw is their poor/confusing/inconsistent website specs on the gain/input sensitivities for the balanced/unbalance input and the power supply caps. It is really inexcusable for them not to publish those important specs accurately and in more details.
PENG, I just checked out a lot of reviews on the EMO a300 amp seems some are having issues with fan noise, plus some have had the amps go out only after a few weeks.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Has Emotiva sold the company? Back in 2011 I picked up two of their UPA-1 monoblock amps at 399 each. They where 200 @ 8 Ohms they had 6 power Transistors at the rail plus 8 Capacitors @ 10,000 each. Much better than anything they have out now for the price.
I could not find mention that they sold the company, so I probably mis-remembered; but they surely started making major changes to their policies and methods in the 2015-2016 time frame.
Most notably before this time, they always published complete test measurements/reports from a third party test lab on their gear. They also used to have some great sales on introductory gear as well as some great holiday sales.
IMHO, when Emotiva made the original UPA series (UPA-1, 2 , etc not UPA-200, etc) Emotiva represented the best value for the buck. Today, I would generally consider Outlaw a superior deal. The Caveat is that Emotiva has a little more variety and there are probably situations where Emotiva may have a better option for a specific situation!

However, that is not considering Gene's experience with Emotiva's unwillingness to provide repair of his amp that went belly-up! IIRC, the unit was no longer under warranty, but only something like 6 or 7 years old. I'm thinking it was one of their premium reference products like the XPR-1 (please correct me if I have any of this wrong)!
In any case, Gene was upset (as I would be) that his amp was effectively an expensive boat anchor after less than 10 years! A standard power amp should be good for 15-25 years, IME!
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I thought Gene was referring to the Outlaw M5000.
You are right! It was the 5000 (and he referenced past incidences with Emotiva). Here is his discussion of it:
Each channel also has its own power supply capacitor bank made up of four loosely spaced 6,800uF capacitors. The user manual for the Model 5000 claims a total of 27,200uF of power supply capacitance per channel but it’s a bit misleading since upon closer inspection I found the capacitors were only 50V rated which means they had to be wired in series-parallel to handle the voltage necessary to deliver the rated 120 watts/channel. Thus the equivalent capacitance per channel is actually only 6,800uF. Outlaw updated their website to now state four 6,800uF capacitors/channel. I suppose that’s a little more “honest” but it still doesn’t give you the actual effective channel capacitance. We’ve seen this before on some of Emotiva’s older amplifiers and called them out on it in each review so we feel it’s only fair to do the same with Outlaw. Suffice it to say, the Model 5000 has a massive power supply for an amplifier of its price class. I am just picking nits here. Moving on.
He also goes through how to calculate the correct amount of capacitance for anyone who is interested:
 
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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Slumlord
Pretty sure Emotiva is still privately held by the founder (or one of them). Dan Laufman? I do remember at one point they were rumored to be buying Carver....

I think you've got it right on Gene's amp. I don't remember if Gene had it repaired elsewhere after Emotiva's refusal....or ? I do believe Gene has stated AH will do no further reviewing of Emotiva products.

I could not find mention that they sold the company, so I probably mis-remembered; but they surely started making major changes to their policies and methods in the 2015-2016 time frame.
Most notably before this time, they always published complete test measurements/reports from a third party test lab on their gear. They also used to have some great sales on introductory gear as well as some great holiday sales.
IMHO, when Emotiva made the original UPA series (UPA-1, 2 , etc not UPA-200, etc) Emotiva represented the best value for the buck. Today, I would generally consider Outlaw a superior deal. The Caveat is that Emotiva has a little more variety and there are probably situations where Emotiva may have a better option for a specific situation!

However, that is not considering Gene's experience with Emotiva's unwillingness to provide repair of his amp that went belly-up! IIRC, the unit was no longer under warranty, but only something like 6 or 7 years old. I'm thinking it was one of their premium reference products like the XPR-1 (please correct me if I have any of this wrong)!
In any case, Gene was upset (as I would be) that his amp was effectively an expensive boat anchor after less than 10 years! A standard power amp should be good for 15-25 years, IME!
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Overlord
Are these the smaller caps that you’re referring to on the 2200? 3300 uF, 50 V.

I uploaded the best quality that the forum would allow, but I can email the originals if you want.

View attachment 33964
Those are the ones I referred to. So in theory if those two are wired in series, the equivalent cap would be 100 V, 3300/2= 1,650 uf and then if connected in parallel with the 2X6,800 uf + 1,650 uf = 16,900 uf total. I doubt they are connected together like that, but without seeing the circuit diagram for the power supply we can't be sure. Even if wired like that though, the total would still fall short. Hopefully they would respond to me tech support request ticket with a good explanation.

By the way, 13,600 uf (100 V rated) should be enough to target 10% ripple, 20,000 uf would be really good.
 
Shanman

Shanman

Audioholic
That issue could be solved easily by placing a single AC infinity 120 mm fan on top, set to the slowest speed and you won't hear it from a few feet away.
So about this... Is it best to have that fan blowing down onto the finned area, or blowing up and help the natural flow of heat rising?
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
So about this... Is it best to have that fan blowing down onto the finned area, or blowing up and help the natural flow of heat rising?
Up - always work with the natural flow!

Edit: But make sure you have a clear airflow into the amp. Setting it directly on a deep pile carpet would be a mistake (assuming there are intake vents under the unit). Often I will put something like hockey pucks under the feet to give plenty of intake clearance (assuming vents underneath)!
or if you like blue better than cork:
For either of these, 48 is a full box!
Also, don't think these would do a whole lot to isolate a turntable. They are sold as anit-vibration pads and I'm sure they can help in certain situations, but they are not "squishy" enough to absorb much under the light weight of a typical turntable.
For my purposes, they are inexpensive "lifts" that have a decent friction coefficient at 7/8".
 
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KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Amir is such a tease!
I opened the reviews page of his website and saw my Outlaw model 2200 front and center in the slide show at the top of the page! I looked, but no measurement post yet! I don't know if that means the Outlaw is next up or if it is currently being measured! Either way it is ahead of his projected schedule (but my balls are still blue:()!
... Or maybe he decided he would rather lift the 23lb monoblock than some 120 lb 7-channel amp for a quick photo to add!

 
P

PENG

Audioholic Overlord
Got a response from Outlaw already, that's impressively quick. They confirmed the other 2X3,300 uf caps would make the total = 20,200 uf so their FAQ info would be correct. However, technically speaking, as Gene pointed out in more than one occasions, such calculations are not correct when caps are wired in series, or series/parallel combination as is in this case.

The correct total should be as I posted in post#268, 16,900 uf, again, technically speaking. At the time I was only assuming, but now it can be confirmed. So at least we can all breathe more easily, knowing Outlaw did not short change us on storage capacitance, though they did, technically speaking and to minor extent only that are completely forgivable because of the 100 V rated caps that are typically found in more expensive 250 W-300 W power amps.

They also confirmed the input sensitivity to be 1.48 V for the RCA unbalanced input. That is in line with what I expected based on collaborating info I collected plus my own measurements. What remains questionable, and I did fire off a follow up question, is the XLR balanced input sensitivity, their response say 1.26 V, that I hope is a typo. Their website info of 1.7 V would seem more reasonable. For comparison, the Monolith manual says:
RCA 1.49 V, XLR 1.67 V.
 
John Galt

John Galt

Audioholic Intern
Got a response from Outlaw already, that's impressively quick. They confirmed the other 2X3,300 uf caps would make the total = 20,200 uf so their FAQ info would be correct. However, technically speaking, as Gene pointed out in more than one occasions, such calculations are not correct when caps are wired in series, or series/parallel combination as is in this case.

The correct total should be as I posted in post#268, 16,900 uf, again, technically speaking. At the time I was only assuming, but now it can be confirmed. So at least we can all breathe more easily, knowing Outlaw did not short change us on storage capacitance, though they did, technically speaking and to minor extent only that are completely forgivable because of the 100 V rated caps that are typically found in more expensive 250 W-300 W power amps.

They also confirmed the input sensitivity to be 1.48 V for the RCA unbalanced input. That is in line with what I expected based on collaborating info I collected plus my own measurements. What remains questionable, and I did fire off a follow up question, is the XLR balanced input sensitivity, their response say 1.26 V, that I hope is a typo. Their website info of 1.7 V would seem more reasonable. For comparison, the Monolith manual says:
RCA 1.49 V, XLR 1.67 V.
The RCA input sensitivity of 1.48 V is disappointing on the 2200 since the site clearly says 850 mV. The Emotiva A-300 claims 1.2 V, and the Monoprice Monolith 2x200 and 3x200 are both 1.6 V.

How would you say these input sensitivities would work with a Denon X3500H rated at 1.2 V (same as every other Denon/Marantz I’ve checked) out on the RCA pre-outs?

Does it really matter when they’re that close? Am I over thinking this aspect? Had I not seen Gene’s video about pre-out voltages I would be blissfully ignorant :D
 
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everettT

everettT

Audioholic Ninja
The RCA input sensitivity of 1.48 V is disappointing on the 2200 since the site clearly says 850 mV. The Emotiva A-300 claims 1.2 V, and the Monoprice Monolith 2x200 and 3x200 are both 1.6 V.

How would you say these input sensitivities would work with a Denon X3500H rated at 1.2 V (same as every other Denon/Marantz I’ve checked) out on the RCA pre-outs? Does it really matter when they’re that close?
I wouldn't think it is a problem as it's not max before clipping and would be inline with driving most AVRs allowing max gain.
 
John Galt

John Galt

Audioholic Intern
Amir is such a tease!
I opened the reviews page of his website and saw my Outlaw model 2200 front and center in the slide show at the top of the page! I looked, but no measurement post yet! I don't know if that means the Outlaw is next up or if it is currently being measured! Either way it is ahead of his projected schedule (but my balls are still blue:()!
... Or maybe he decided he would rather lift the 23lb monoblock than some 120 lb 7-channel amp for a quick photo to add!

I‘m really anxious to see his data. I predict that it will be published on 3-7, one day after my 30 day return window:D
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Overlord
The RCA input sensitivity of 1.48 V is disappointing on the 2200 since the site clearly says 850 mV. The Emotiva A-300 claims 1.2 V, and the Monoprice Monolith 2x200 and 3x200 are both 1.6 V.

How would you say these input sensitivities would work with a Denon X3500H rated at 1.2 V (same as every other Denon/Marantz I’ve checked) out on the RCA pre-outs?

Does it really matter when they’re that close? Am I over thinking this aspect? Had I not seen Gene’s video about pre-out voltages I would be blissfully ignorant :D
I would say 1.48 V for 200 W (that's almost 29 dB of gain) is fine for the AVR-X3500H because the X3500H measured quite clean up to 1.5 V and even at 2.0 V it was only a touch worse than the AV7705 that ASR just reviewed and measured. Of course the AVR-X3500 beat the AV7705 in digital input frequency response, ruler flat to 20 kHz vs -2.5 dB for the 7705.

Gene also reviewed and measured the AVR-X3300W that has the same preamp and DAC as the X3400H and X3500H so you can rely on those measurements as well.

The A-300's 1.2 V input sensitivity is only a touch better. You can't go by just the voltage, you have to look at the rated output too. That's why I prefer to look at the gain spec, that is independent of the rated output.

For example, the A-300's 1.2 V will get you 150 W output, so if you want to push it to 200 W (accept the very high distortions for argument sake), you will need 1.39 V, that's only 0.09 V difference than the M2200, practically negligible.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Overlord
I‘m really anxious to see his data. I predict that it will be published on 3-7, one day after my 30 day return window:D
And remember, let me say this for the 3rd time..My prediction is that Amir's measurements will show the M2200 meet the specs, or exceed specs just slightly but negligibly.:D Obviously I hope it will do better, but that is unlikely.
 
everettT

everettT

Audioholic Ninja
I would say 1.48 V for 200 W (that's almost 29 dB of gain) is fine for the AVR-X3500H because the X3500H measured quite clean up to 1.5 V and even at 2.0 V it was only a touch worse than the AV7705 that ASR just reviewed and measured. Of course the AVR-X3500 beat the AV7705 in digital input frequency response, ruler flat to 20 kHz vs -2.5 dB for the 7705.

Gene also reviewed and measured the AVR-X3300W that has the same preamp and DAC as the X3400H and X3500H so you can rely on those measurements as well.

The A-300's 1.2 V input sensitivity is only a touch better. You can't go by just the voltage, you have to look at the rated output too. That's why I prefer to look at the gain spec, that is independent of the rated output.

For example, the A-300's 1.2 V will get you 150 W output, so if you want to push it to 200 W (accept the very high distortions for argument sake), you will need 1.39 V, that's only 0.09 V difference than the M2200, practically negligible.
That's the just of it. Will the output drive the input to rated spec. I don't expect that their unit will perform less than.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Overlord
ASR review:

For details please follow the links:
audiosciencereview_AV7705
audiosciencereview_AVR-X3500H

AV7705 pre-out at 4 V, that means 2 V if RCA unbalanced were used:

1581383261902.png


Compared that to the AVR-X3500H:

Again, it was at 2 V unbalanced so it should be compared to the AV7705's 4V balanced/XLR:

1581383197936.png


At the rated 1.2 V, things improved for both the AV7705 and AVR-X3500H:

1581383368952.png


1581383591485.png


Amir only showed the results for 1 V but he commented that it was the same at 1.2 V

So you can see that at the lower voltage, the AVR-X3500H actually did better than the AV7705.

Now, frequency response:

1581383779895.png





1581383731256.png
 

Attachments

KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Amir is such a tease!
I opened the reviews page of his website and saw my Outlaw model 2200 front and center in the slide show at the top of the page! I looked, but no measurement post yet! I don't know if that means the Outlaw is next up or if it is currently being measured! Either way it is ahead of his projected schedule (but my balls are still blue:()!
... Or maybe he decided he would rather lift the 23lb monoblock than some 120 lb 7-channel amp for a quick photo to add!

Well, I've got some egg on my face. I think I had the size of the photo turned up, but it is of the Outlaw model 7140 instead of the 2200. When I first saw it today, all that showed was "law" (from Outlaw) and "mo" (from Model 7140) because the framing of the photo cut off the ends and it also cut off the bottom half of the amp to make it look like a half-height unit!
(If you hold "CTRL" and hit "+", about 3 to 5 times, you will see what I saw... and "Ctrl -" will return the size back to normal! This is a good Windows trick to know if you need to zoom in on something when there is not a zoom feature in the viewer you are using)
 

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