Denon/Marantz vs Yamaha vs Anthem Thread

[Andrein]

A880 series = 1.6Vrms Max (127W/26dB, 507W/32dB)
A1080-3080 series = 2.0Vrms Max (199W/26dB, 792W/32dB)

So there seems to be an increase in voltage from the A860 (1.0Vrsm) to the A880 (1.6Vrms)?

1.0v is what they use for measuring impedance. It is 1v across all models. Max voltage is different.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

1.0v is what they use for measuring impedance. It is 1v across all models. Max voltage is different.

But have we been talking about the Max Voltage or the Impedance Voltage?

I think Gene measured the Voltage at 1.0Vrms and 1.6Vrms because the A860 shut down at 1.9Vrms. It appears the 1.6Vrms had distortion, but lower voltage (1.5 or 1.4Vrms) would product less distortion?

But maybe you're saying the A860 also had a max voltage of 1.6Vrms?

 

[PENG]

A880 series = 1.6Vrms Max (127W/26dB, 507W/32dB)
A1080-3080 series = 2.0Vrms Max (199W/26dB, 792W/32dB)

So there seems to be an increase in voltage from the A860 (1.0Vrsm) to the A880 (1.6Vrms)?

I think that is a reasonable assumption. By the way, I don't think you will find too many mid range (based on price level) power amps with gains lower than 28 dB. Below are some examples:

ATI - 28 dB
Anthem - 29 dB
Outlaw - 28 - 29 dB
NAD C series - 29 dB
Emotiva Gen 3 - 29 dB
Monolith - 28 dB (No surprise, same as ATI's)

Those with lower gains such as Benmark's ABH2 are rated 100 W or less so they don't need as much. I don't anyone would not pair the ABH2 with a real preamp anyway.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think that is a reasonable assumption. By the way, I don't think you will find too many mid range (based on price level) power amps with gains lower than 28 dB. Below are some examples:

ATI - 28 dB
Anthem - 29 dB
Outlaw - 28 - 29 dB
NAD C series - 29 dB
Emotiva Gen 3 - 29 dB
Monolith - 28 dB (No surprise, same as ATI's)

Those with lower gains such as Benmark's ABH2 are rated 100 W or less so they don't need as much. I don't anyone would not pair the ABH2 with a real preamp anyway.

Yeah, I agree that most people who buy a Yamaha A880-series don't intend to buy external amps.

I believe that most people who buy AVRs don't need external amps because they don't usually listen loud enough, sit far enough, or own very expensive speakers with impedance that dip too far south.

The A860 can output 100W x 2Ch into 8 ohms 20Hz-20kHz at 0.1% THD (AH lab).

We know the All Channels Driven (ACD) test isn't indicative of real would applications.

For most people who don't listen to bleeding volumes in typical rooms of no larger than 18' x 20', I am confident that most people don't need more power than what the A880 is capable of.

But if they do need more power and want to buy external amps, please get the A1080, 2080, 3080 to be safe.

Or better yet, please get the CX-A5200 with a 4Vrms (unbalanced) and 8Vrms (balanced) if you want to get external amps.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I pulled the trigger on the 720 today.

Congrats on the Anthem 720!

We all know the excitement of getting new components.

I just got the JVC DLA-NX5 projector, and I'm still feeling HIGH right now (no drug jokes please ).

So, why did you get the Anthem, instead of the other brands?

 

[Andrein]

But have we been talking about the Max Voltage or the Impedance Voltage?

I think Gene measured the Voltage at 1.0Vrms and 1.6Vrms because the A860 shut down at 1.9Vrms. It appears the 1.6Vrms had distortion, but lower voltage (1.5 or 1.4Vrms) would product less distortion?

But maybe you're saying the A860 also had a max voltage of 1.6Vrms?

I think a860 has max output 1.6. Distortion is another question. We just need to compare apples to apples. Max output for all a8x0 models seem to be 1.6v and has not changed in a880 and 2.0v is for higher models.

 

[PENG]

I think a860 has max output 1.6. Distortion is another question. We just need to compare apples to apples. Max output for all a8x0 models seem to be 1.6v and has not changed in a880 and 2.0v is for higher models.

In addition, I think it also depends on the input impedance of the power amp. Yamaha's 1V/470 ohm could mean the output impedance is 470 ohm, or rated for 1V into 470 ohm. The higher the power amp's input impedance, the easier it is to drive and that means lower THD, even at the A860's specified 1.6 V maximum. So I bet the RX-A amps will match better with ATI, Monolith, Emo Gen 3 amps. For lower input impedance power amps, I would go with D&M's AVRs, especially Marantz's. Again, as ADTG alluded to, probably and practically doesn't matter, but it feels better.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think a860 has max output 1.6. Distortion is another question. We just need to compare apples to apples. Max output for all a8x0 models seem to be 1.6v and has not changed in a880 and 2.0v is for higher models.

IOW, the Max output of the A860 is 1.6V (202W/28dB) ---- not 1.0V (79W/28dB).

The 1.6V fell short of AH's standard of 2.0V (315W/28dB).

The question is, why don't they just make it 4V on everything? Does it relate to reliability at all? Does increasing max output increase HEAT production?

Does it relate to liability at all? Does increasing max output increase risk of damaging speakers and AVR?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

i went for a1070 anyway.

Do you recall if the A860 got HOT? What about the heat production on the A1070?

Just seeing if there is a clear correlation between V-max and Heat production.

 

[Andrein]

Do you recall if the A860 got HOT? What about the heat production on the A1070?

Just seeing if there is a clear correlation between V-max and Heat production.

No, it was hardly warm after 4-5 hours of movies as all yamahas)) I only use A1070 as preamp. So it is always cool. Would DM still be hot if amps not in action?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

No, it was hardly warm after 4-5 hours of movies as all yamahas)) I only use A1070 as preamp. So it is always cool. Would DM still be hot if amps not in action?

All my Denon get very hot even when the internal amps are not used - when using external amps (I did not use Eco modes).

 

[PENG]

IOW, the Max output of the A860 is 1.6V (202W/28dB) ---- not 1.0V (79W/28dB).

The 1.6V fell short of AH's standard of 2.0V (315W/28dB).

The question is, why don't they just make it 4V on everything? Does it relate to reliability at all? Does increasing max output increase HEAT production?

Does it relate to liability at all? Does increasing max output increase risk of damaging speakers and AVR?

Excellent question, someone (hint: a dealer) should call their technical support (level 2 or higher?) The preamp/vol control chip used definitely can output close to 4 V. Pretty much all of them use similar kind of LSI chip. D&M just upgraded theirs to individual preamp/vol chip/IC since 2016.

 

[PENG]

No, it was hardly warm after 4-5 hours of movies as all yamahas)) I only use A1070 as preamp. So it is always cool. Would DM still be hot if amps not in action?

Not too hot if Eco mode is set to "On" as it should be when used as prepro only, but still quite warm to the touch because the preamp, processors and video circuits will still be energized.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Excellent question, someone (hint: a dealer) should call their technical support (level 2 or higher?) The preamp/vol control chip used definitely can output close to 4 V. Pretty much all of them use similar kind of LSI chip. D&M just upgraded theirs to individual preamp/vol chip/IC since 2016.

Yeah, I sent Yamaha the email. Will see what they say.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Max Output levels for Yamaha:
CX-A5100/5200 = 4.0V unbalanced, 8.0V balanced
RX-A1080, A2080, A3080 = 2.0V
RX-A880 = 1.6V

 

[PENG]

Max Output levels for Yamaha:
CX-A5100/5200 = 4V unbalanced, 8V balanced
RX-A1080, A2080, A3080 = 2V
RX-A880 = 1.6V

It says 4V or more. To me that means when paired with an easy load such as ATI's 28 kOhms, it can go higher without clipping, and that means most ears might begin to bleed before the CX-A begins to clip.

 

[ryanosaur]

No, it was hardly warm after 4-5 hours of movies as all yamahas)) I only use A1070 as preamp. So it is always cool. Would DM still be hot if amps not in action?

I agree with @PENG, my Marantz gets hot too. With my top cooling unit, it stays about 79-80F during stereo use with external amps and ECO ON. When running Audyssey tests on day with ECO OFF, and the Fan unit off, the Thermostat read 113F by the end of that 8-location test.

 

[Andrein]

Max Output levels for Yamaha:
CX-A5100/5200 = 4.0V unbalanced, 8.0V balanced
RX-A1080, A2080, A3080 = 2.0V
RX-A880 = 1.6V

Interesting. Wonder if cx-a are less reliable than avr))) Or have much better internals?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Interesting. Wonder if cx-a are less reliable than avr))) Or have much better internals?

I hope the CX-A pre-pros are more reliable.

But does anyone know for sure?

I know of 2 Denon AVP-A1HDCI pre-pros on AH that failed after about 8 years.

So just because it's a pre-pro doesn't guarantee it's more reliable.

But I can hope.

 

[KEW]

As an example, my QSC DCA 1222s have a Voltage Gain of 32dB, as they need only 1.0v to reach their full power @ 8 ohms (0.9v for a 4 ohm load). I can ascertain that they are dead silent idling at full gain settings connected to my subwoofers. If there had been a noise floor problem, I would definitely hear some hum from the subs.

I am by no means an authority on this, but when I think of noise from high gain amps, it is hiss that comes to mind as the primary offender! Maybe someone with better knowledge can correct or confirm this!
If I'm right, a sub should be safe from the noise issue!