Denon/Marantz vs Yamaha vs Anthem Thread

[PENG]

That’s a great chart, PENG!

So if you own the A860 pre-production model (1Vrms) and you own an amp with 32dB Gain, you could output 200W, not that you want to do that. But if you have a 26dB amp, the 1Vrms gets you 50W.

Do you know what the preamp output voltage of the Yamaha A1080 (any 1000 series or higher) is?

You've got it! By the way, are we sure the one Gene reviewed was a pre-production model? Note that Gene's review was done on Feb 22 2017, the RX-A860 was a 2016 model so by Feb 2017 it would have been out for at last one year.

Also, please note Gene's comments below, his 2017 review:

The power supply is a bit smaller than I've come to expect in AV receivers in this price class. As comparison, the power supply in my friend's $400 Yamaha RX-V659 AV receiver that just lost a battle against a lightning storm is a bit bigger with a larger IE core transformer and more generous capacitor bank (71V 12,000uF Caps x 2) compared to the much more expensive RX-A860 (71V 8,200uF Caps x 2).

Just look at the pictures and you can see the corner cutting.

About the pre out voltage, below is what I found on the schematic diagram of the RX-A1050 (2016 model):

typ: 1Vrms (Vol +16.5 dB)

I hope that was a typo, otherwise it is disturbing as you might have guessed, that +16.5 for Yamaha AVRs is the maximum!! That would seem somewhat consistent with Gene's finding.

I am with @KEW, on his keen observations on the 860, and again, until I see some bench tests of the RX-A800 and 1000 series, I would have to assume it is saver to go with the 2000/3000 series if matching power amps is a concern, though the RX-A1000 series may still be fine if that 1Vrms thing was in fact a typo.

The RX-A860 should have no trouble matching some of the Emo amp that are rated 32 dB gain.

 

[KEW]

So if you own the A860 pre-production model (1Vrms)

Did you get confirmation that it was a pre-production model from Gene? Or are you just coaching it in terms of what you would prefer to be true?
I am not too quick to subscribe to this theory, because I have read too many of Gene's review where he comments that he was reviewing a pre-production model! In many cases, Gene has actually discussed deficiencies with the manufacturer and gotten assurances that corrections would be in place on production units!
If you have followed Gene, you know he is a fan of Yamaha and I don't think he would be very quick to level these complaints against their AVR without giving them a chance to respond if it was a pre-production unit!
His narrative sounds pretty resigned to "this is the new reality".

 

[highfigh]

I guess you didn't read the earlier posts..

No- I just responded to the first thing I saw........Ooooh, a puppy!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Did you get confirmation that it was a pre-production model from Gene? Or are you just coaching it in terms of what you would prefer to be true?

To me, unless proven otherwise (tested or confirmed),the pre-production model is the same as the post-production model.

I used that term because of what MCode wrote:

I have noted the various comments about the A860 and question Gene was his review sample an early production sample that may not represent the performance of actual production units.

But to me, unless proven otherwise, it doesn’t matter if it’s early production or late production.

But the salient point of the post was the 1Vrms + 32dB Gain amp = 200W Max and 1Vrms + 26dB Gain = 50W Max, as PENG showed in the chart.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

power supply in Yamaha RX-V659 is bigger with a larger IE core transformer and more generous capacitor bank (71V 12,000uF Caps x 2) compared to the much more expensive RX-A860 (71V 8,200uF Caps x 2).

Are the Capacitors sizes proportional to the Output Voltages?

The A1020 and A2060 have 12,000uF vs 8,200uF on the A830/860.

The A3050 has 18,000uF Caps.

I just noticed the A830 has the same 8,200uF Caps as the A860.

 

[PENG]

Do you know what the preamp output voltage of the Yamaha A1080 (any 1000 series or higher) is?

Based on the info in the Owner's manual, the RX-A1080 through A3080 pre out levels are 1 V/470 ohm but 2.0 V maximum.

RX-A880 is rated 1.0 V/470 ohm, 1.6 V maximum.

Older models such as the RX-A850 through A3050 were simply rated 1.0 V/1.2 kohm.

Without bench test measurements, it may be reasonable to assume the A1060 (2016 model) through A3080 (2018 model) should do better than A860 through A880 based on the specified "maximum" of 2.0 V vs 1.6 V, whatever "maximum" is supposed to mean. It could mean mV at +16.5, or at x% THD+N, or something else.

 

[PENG]

Are the Capacitors sizes proportional to the Output Voltages?

The A1020 and A2060 have 12,000uF vs 8,200uF on the A830/860.

The A3050 has 18,000uF Caps.

I just noticed the A830 has the same 8,200uF Caps as the A860.

Those large smoothing caps are part of the power supply that affects the power amps output performance, not the preamp. I hope the preamp section has its own power supply.

 

[KEW]

But to me, unless proven otherwise, it doesn’t matter if it’s early production or late production.

In that case, why would you specify "pre-production" as if you knew it for fact?
I just want to keep things on the "up and up" for readers!

But the salient point of the post was the 1Vrms + 32dB Gain amp = 200W Max and 1Vrms + 26dB Gain = 50W Max, as PENG showed in the chart.

That is indeed a very salient point and I feel bad for the guy who had to purchase an external amp because this AVR was weak in the first place, and even more so if the amp he purchases happens to be low gain!

From the Audioholics "Basic Measurement Techniques" article:

Amplifier Gain - this is a measure of how much output voltage you will get given a fixed input voltage where Av = Vout/Vin. Amplifier gain (Av) is also measured to ensure it will be compatible with any potential mating preamplifiers. We like to see power amplifiers hit full rated power at 2Vrms or less as many A/V receivers preouts have limited output drive. If the power amp requires more than 2Vrms to hit rated power and the preamp can't deliver it, then the result will be a clipped preamp signal amplified by the power amplifier which will cause audible distortion and/or compression.

https://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/basic-amplifier-measurement-techniques

So with a 1Vrms pre-out you will be quick to get audible distortion.

Gene has often stated that he prefers to see 2Vrms from the pre-out and my understanding is that high gain amps (like in he 32dB territory) are generally prone to high noise floor, so as in all things there is a trade off!

But to get back to reality, if your answer is "just buy a high gain amp", that isn't a bad solution, but expecting the typical consumer to somehow figure this out is... they just shouldn't have to IMHO!

My problem with this is simple! If Joe Blow (not some obsessive audio freak) buys a $900 Yamaha AVR, it should be comparable to other brands (of similar price) for power delivery, and given it has pre-outs, they should be compatible with mainstream amps without him having to become an electronics geek to figure out which amp will and won't work with it. People spending $900 on an AVR should be able to take it home, hook it up and be good with the ability to safely crank it on occasion!

 

[Verdinut]

Gene has often stated that he prefers to see 2Vrms from the pre-out and my understanding is that high gain amps (like in he 32dB territory) are generally prone to high noise floor, so as in all things there is a trade off!

I wouldn't generalize about high gain power amps. Some might have a lower SNR but some do pretty well in this regard. Perhaps @PENG can provide more info on this aspect with regard to audiophile power amps.

As an example, my QSC DCA 1222s have a Voltage Gain of 32dB, as they need only 1.0v to reach their full power @ 8 ohms (0.9v for a 4 ohm load). I can ascertain that they are dead silent idling at full gain settings connected to my subwoofers. If there had been a noise floor problem, I would definitely hear some hum from the subs.

Cheers,

 

[Cjamrr]

If this has already been answered, forgive me for missing it. I'm looking at the Yamaha RX-A3080 or the Anthem MRX-720 to couple with my existing Emotiva XPA-5 Gen2 amp.
Thoughts???

Go for the Anthem.

 

[hifihillbilly]

Go for the Anthem.

I pulled the trigger on the 720 today. Now the next question is do I use my external amp (Emotiva XPA-5 Gen2)? I guess I will try it with and without. I am running 5.1 set-up using the Goldenear SuperSats with Forcefield sub. Thanks for the input

 

[Phase 2]

I pulled the trigger on the 720 today. Now the next question is do I use my external amp (Emotiva XPA-5 Gen2)? I guess I will try it with and without. I am running 5.1 set-up using the Goldenear SuperSats with Forcefield sub. Thanks for the input

Umm, you got a 5 X 200 watt @8 Ohms amp, umm Hook the Amp up Bro!!!

 

[Phase 2]

Currently I have Goldenear supersats with Forcefield sub. Looking to add more.

More Subs? Well just ask ADTG, he got 10 Subs yeah that's right 10! And I believe he trying to fit two more just so he got even dozen! With this hobby sky's the limit as long as your budget will allow!!

 

[hifihillbilly]

Umm, you got a 5 X 200 watt @8 Ohms amp, umm Hook the Amp up Bro!!!

Thanks for the input Phase2. I will hook it up. May post a pic or 2. I'm fairly new at this (especially Atmos). I know I'm behind the times

 

[hifihillbilly]

More Subs? Well just ask ADTG, he got 10 Subs yeah that's right 10! And I believe he trying to fit two more just so he got even dozen! With this hobby sky's the limit as long as your budget will allow!!

May add 1 more sub soon. Probably add Atmos speakers in the next few days. Will have to do a little research on these. If i install them in the cathedral ceiling it will be very difficult. Is there a speaker designed to mount on the wall above the tv. Off topic here just a bit.

 

[Verdinut]

Talking about the sky is the limit, some people need to have the latest equipment which gets on the market. They are never satisfied. The new product has a very tiny better spec than what they own has, an improvement which they can't hear even if a DB experience was carried out, but they've got to have it.
That becomes a very expensive hobby.

 

[Phase 2]

May add 1 more sub soon. Probably add Atmos speakers in the next few days. Will have to do a little research on these. If i install them in the cathedral ceiling it will be very difficult. Is there a speaker designed to mount on the wall above the tv. Off topic here just a bit.

Post up your thoughts on your new AVR, sure! Pics are cool also,
Atmos uhu? I believe you'll like it the ones that do run Atmos like it. I've always ran 5.1 or 5.2 I'm gonna be moving in 4 months and will put together a new setup and I will be looking to do the Atmos to.

 

[Cjamrr]

I pulled the trigger on the 720 today. Now the next question is do I use my external amp (Emotiva XPA-5 Gen2)? I guess I will try it with and without. I am running 5.1 set-up using the Goldenear SuperSats with Forcefield sub. Thanks for the input

Sweet. I can’t wait to hear about the Anthem 720!

 

[Andrein]

Based on the info in the Owner's manual, the RX-A1080 through A3080 pre out levels are 1 V/470 ohm but 2.0 V maximum.
RX-A880 is rated 1.0 V/470 ohm, 1.6 V maximum.
Older models such as the RX-A850 through A3050 were simply rated 1.0 V/1.2 kohm.
Without bench test measurements, it may be reasonable to assume the A1060 (2016 model) through A3080 (2018 model) should do better than A860 through A880 based on the specified "maximum" of 2.0 V vs 1.6 V, whatever "maximum" is supposed to mean. It could mean mV at +16.5, or at x% THD+N, or something else.

Yeah. Looking at a1070 manual. Impedence is given at 1v. But max preout voltage is 2v. The same is in a2070 and a3070 and ax080 manuals. So the jump in valtage seems to be from a8x0 to a10x0 models

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Based on the info in the Owner's manual, the RX-A1080 through A3080 pre out levels are 1 V/470 ohm but 2.0 V maximum.
RX-A880 is rated 1.0 V/470 ohm, 1.6 V maximum.

A880 series = 1.6Vrms Max (127W/26dB, 507W/32dB)
A1080-3080 series = 2.0Vrms Max (199W/26dB, 792W/32dB)

So there seems to be an increase in voltage from the A860 (1.0Vrsm) to the A880 (1.6Vrms)?