Denon/Marantz vs Yamaha vs Anthem Thread

Verdinut

Verdinut

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I am by no means an authority on this, but when I think of noise from high gain amps, it is hiss that comes to mind as the primary offender! Maybe someone with better knowledge can correct or confirm this!
If I'm right, a sub should be safe from the noise issue!
I believe that in most situations, the source of the hiss or other noise is not the high voltage gain amplifier, but rather the signal fed into the amplifier from a preamplifier or other signal source. Let's say that the gain structure setting is more critical with higher sensitivity power amps.

Here is a good explanation from Rane Corp. with regard to a pro-audio application. A similar situation applies to a home audio system:

https://www.rane.com/video-5-minute-gain-structure-part2.html

Cheers,
André
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Warlord
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I believe that most people who buy AVRs don't need external amps because they don't usually listen loud enough, sit far enough, or own very expensive speakers with impedance that dip too far south.
I would not recommend audio gear based on the premise that only expensive speakers have impedance dips!
A speaker that has been very popular in the budget to mid range market is the Andrew Jones Uni-Fi UB5 speakers at $500 a pair. It is rated at 4 Ohms with 3.2 Ohm minimum and 85dB efficiency. Is that "too far south"? I sure would rest easier buying an AVR with a little high current capability, especially since it would only cost $100 more for the Denon X3400H which appears to be at least twice as strong at lower impedance!
The situation is also complicated because we know speaker impedance ratings from manufacturers are often bogus!

The A860 can output 100W x 2Ch into 8 ohms 20Hz-20kHz at 0.1% THD (AH lab).
Wouldn't it be great if it could put out decent power at 4 Ohms?!

The "lowly" $600 MSRP Denon AVR-X1200H measured as follows per Sound & Vision:
0.1% THD 1.0% THD
2 Channels Continuously Driven, 8-ohm Loads 112.8 watts 126.1 watts
2 Channels Continuously Driven, 4-ohm Loads 139.2 watts 164.3 watts
5 Channels Continuously Driven, 8-ohm Loads 69.9 watts 78.8 watts
7 Channels Continuously Driven, 8-ohm Loads 47.4 watts 57.9 watts

Read more at https://www.soundandvision.com/cont...eceiver-review-test-bench#587kbzpmQmMl1sRQ.99
Here are my take-aways on this thread:
1) The Denon pre-pro you bought was more than a flagship, it was on the cutting edge of what a pre-pro could reasonably be! Denon is a large modern company with a good QC department with competent test facilities, and the Japanese are good at it; but unless a product is an incremental modification of a well established product, the ability to predict lifespan of a product which is a departure from the norm beyond 5 years becomes a real crap-shoot. This unit served you 5 years beyond the 3 year warranty period, I suspect Denon was hoping for better, but given that they discontinued it without an updated replacement, it is clear that they determined it not to be a viable product.
You got burnt, it wasn't you fault. You can look at it as an experimental model that passed all of the tests they had to evaluate it, but in the end the only way to establish how viable it is is to produce it and see.
For many customers, 8 years was enough; as features like Atmos or 4K would have pushed an upgrade. It seems like Gene upgraded his before problems arose(IIRC?). I also suspect that you used yours many more hours per day than most customers, so depending on failure mode, there may be plenty still working fine. 8 years for you may equate to 12 or 16 for someone who doesn't listen as regularly as you do (assuming it is total operating hours that kills it)!
Your experience with this product is disappointing, but I think it is an experience that is more unique to the Denon AVP-A1HDCI pre-pro than categorically to D&M.

2) I believe the Yamaha units you currently have fall into the "well-established" product category, and not the "experimental design" category, so I would expect you to get more service out of them than the Denon AVP-A1HDCI. I envy you for the Yamaha separates you have! They are top level gear from my perspective!

3) There is no perfect manufacturer! Yamaha may have, until recently, been the best of the bunch, but, even then, not by any decisive margin. Throughout this thread, you have primarily been singing the praises of Yamaha. However, right now, I would consider it prudent to avoid buying a Yamaha AVR near, at, or below the $900 860 without doing a lot of research of the details of both the AVR and the speakers/application. To me, it is clear that Yamaha produces an inferior product for the price of their 860, and we don't know which other products by Yamaha may have the same design philosophy. It is hard to know for certain exactly how much power you will need and I often look at an AVR like the 860 (assuming I had not read Gene's review) and think "well, worst case, it has pre-outs so I can always add an amp if need be", so it is even more disturbing to know that the pre-outs are compromised from the norm! From my perspective the situation with the A860 reflects more poorly on Yamaha than the Denon AVP-A1HDCI pre-pro does on Denon! You are probably right that the A860 will be ample for many consumers, but now that you know it lags behind the competition (including its predecessors),I hope you would not give it your recommendation. I would be comfortable suggesting it to someone buying a mid-range Klipsch system, but otherwise, I would just take it off of the table!

With that said, I still believe Yamaha makes some very excellent (and maybe, the best) products at the high-end, but I will stay wary of their budget/value products!
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

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Wouldn't it be great if it could put out decent power at 4 Ohms?!
With that said, I still believe Yamaha makes some very excellent (and maybe, the best) products at the high-end, but I will stay wary of their budget/value products!
Okay, fine. You win the debate on the A860. Forget the A800 series. :D

Unless it's for some secondary systems that don't require much power or 4 ohms impedance, if you buy Yamaha, buy the A1000, 2000, and 3000 series. :D
 
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P

PENG

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Let’s compare apples to apples. Do you have a S&V power measurements of the A860 or similar?

AH did not measure the A860 at 4 ohms with 20Hz-20kHz, I don’t think, only 1kHz.

Are you showing the 5/7Ch driven power output because you firmly believe in the All Channels Driven test?

As @3db has repeatedly said, the ACD really tests the stringency of the Protection Circuits.

Even the $3,000 MX-A5000 amp can’t do 7CH driven.

I think the A860's preamp output falls short of the AH standard of 2V. But I don't think the A860 falls short on the power amp.
In Gene's apples to apples comparison, it showed similar results to the X3400H, may be 0.5 dB less. It is possible that another bench using different protocols may yield different results. So my issue with the A860 is really just the 8200X2 uf smoothing caps, vs the Denon X1400H's 10,000 uf X 2, and the poor performance of the pre outs per Gene's comments:
At 1.9Vrms output, the receiver shut down. When I checked at a slightly lower output (1.6Vrms),I noticed a pretty nasty FFT distortion profile. There simply is NO excuse for this in a day and age when opamps are cheap and supply voltage is plentiful.
D&M appears to be using the same preamp/vol control parts and circuitry all the way down to the lowest model, I would think that Yamaha had done the same for standardization/cost benefits. IC costs are inversely proportional to volume (number of pieces).

I almost want to purpose the service manual of this thing to see if there are info in it that could explain such performance. Let's hope your email reach the right people who can give us a good explanation.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

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In Gene's apples to apples comparison, it showed similar results to the X3400H, may be 0.5 dB less. It is possible that another bench using different protocols may yield different results. So my issue with the A860 is really just the 8200X2 uf smoothing caps, vs the Denon X1400H's 10,000 uf X 2, and the poor performance of the pre outs per Gene's comments:


D&M appears to be using the same preamp/vol control parts and circuitry all the way down to the lowest model, I would think that Yamaha had done the same for standardization/cost benefits. IC costs are inversely proportional to volume (number of pieces).

I almost want to purpose the service manual of this thing to see if there are info in it that could explain such performance. Let's hope your email reach the right people who can give us a good explanation.
Great points.

In the end, I think we can all agree that if you're buying for a SERIOUS home theater application, buy the A1000 and up. :D
 
P

PENG

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Great points.

In the end, I think we can all agree that if you're buying for a SERIOUS home theater application, buy the A1000 and up. :D
Or if your email did miracuously make it to some qualified Yamaha rep who can confirm the A860 has the same pre out performance as the A3060 and can output 2 Vrms cleanly; and that AH might have received a defective unit.:D
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

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Can anyone find measurements of the A1080?

I found the S&V measurement of the A1010:

RX-A1010’s left channel, from CD input to speaker output with two channels driving 8-ohm loads, reaches 0.1 percent distortion at 116.9 watts and 1 percent distortion at 133.9 watts. Driven into 4 ohms, the amplifier reaches 0.1 percent distortion at 150.1 watts and 1 percent distortion at 176.4 watts.

https://www.soundandvision.com/cont...receiver-ht-labs-measures#LYuBUvLlwFrBGrfM.99

Pretty good power down to 4 ohms + the 2V pre-out, unlike the A860.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

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Or if your email did miracuously make it to some qualified Yamaha rep who can confirm the A860 has the same pre out performance as the A3060 and can output 2 Vrms cleanly; and that AH might have received a defective unit.:D
Haha. That would be quite the story, but not likely. :D

I still have not heard back from Yamaha about why their pre-out voltage is much lower than Denon, especially the A880. They usually respond to my emails within 48 hrs. So will give them until Monday. :D
 
P

PENG

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Haha. That would be quite the story, but not likely. :D

I still have not heard back from Yamaha about why their pre-out voltage is much lower than Denon, especially the A880. They usually respond to my emails within 48 hrs. So will give them until Monday. :D
I asked Marantz a technical question more than a week ago. I requested it to be forwarded to the right group though. Same thing, normal response time don't seem to apply to tech questions when asked to be answered by their higher level.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

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I asked Marantz a technical question more than a week ago. I requested it to be forwarded to the right group though. Same thing, normal response time don't seem to apply to tech questions when asked to be answered by their higher level.
So I might not hear back from Yamaha for a while. :D
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

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I asked Marantz a technical question more than a week ago. I requested it to be forwarded to the right group though. Same thing, normal response time don't seem to apply to tech questions when asked to be answered by their higher level.
I just got the response from Yamaha:

We appreciate your feedback and I will escalate your information to the product development team.

The pre out voltage on the Aventage models are:
RX-A880 = 1.6 V

RX-A1080 - RX-A3080 = 2.0 V or more

I also followed up in my response by emphasizing that "many Yamaha fans would like to know the rationale why Yamaha is going with the lower pre-out voltage compared to Denon, Marantz, and others."

Will see if we get a follow-up with the rationale part. :D

The A1080-3080 has 2.0V or more, which is always good.
 
Phase 2

Phase 2

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I just got the response from Yamaha:

We appreciate your feedback and I will escalate your information to the product development team.

The pre out voltage on the Aventage models are:
RX-A880 = 1.6 V

RX-A1080 - RX-A3080 = 2.0 V or more

I also followed up in my response by emphasizing that "many Yamaha fans would like to know the rationale why Yamaha is going with the lower pre-out voltage compared to Denon, Marantz, and others."

Will see if we get a follow-up with the rationale part. :D

The A1080-3080 has 2.0V or more, which is always good.
Wow, that was fast..I guess since Denon, and Marantz are all tied up with Onkyo, bet they already putting Denon and Marantz name plates on Onkyo units..:p:p
 
ellisr63

ellisr63

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I HAVE owned several Denon AVRS, 2 Yamaha AVRs, Yamaha cxa5100, and a Krell showcase AVP.
The Denons were ok, but I did not like the sound of them (I cannot remember exactly why as it has been a while). I moved on from them to a Krell showcase...beautiful AVP, sounded great, but an apsolute ergonomic nightmare IMO. My current AVP is the cxa5100 which sounds good, and has excellent control via app. The down sides are remote is very limited in range, HDRADIO requires you to use WIFI (why?),and lastly YPAO needs to be replaced with DIRAC.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

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I HAVE owned several Denon AVRS, 2 Yamaha AVRs, Yamaha cxa5100, and a Krell showcase AVP.
The Denons were ok, but I did not like the sound of them (I cannot remember exactly why as it has been a while). I moved on from them to a Krell showcase...beautiful AVP, sounded great, but an apsolute ergonomic nightmare IMO. My current AVP is the cxa5100 which sounds good, and has excellent control via app. The down sides are remote is very limited in range, HDRADIO requires you to use WIFI (why?),and lastly YPAO needs to be replaced with DIRAC.
If they could put DIRAC 16Ch into a single outboard chassis and sell for $1,000, would you just add it to your CX-A5100? :D
 
ellisr63

ellisr63

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What I would like to see is a digital out loop that you could hook up a Dirac to. Then you would only have one cable to run to the unit, and one from the Dirac. Thus eliminating a AD conversion, and also eliminating Dirac from converting to analig.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

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What I would like to see is a digital out loop that you could hook up a Dirac to. Then you would only have one cable to run to the unit, and one from the Dirac. Thus eliminating a AD conversion, and also eliminating Dirac from converting to analig.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
Yeah, sounds like too many steps.

Best to just get one Pre-pro that has DIRAC in it. :D
 

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