Denon/Marantz vs Yamaha vs Anthem Thread

[highfigh]

I don’t blame Yamaha or anyone else trying to cover themselves with extremely conservative wordings. Probably good for business against lawsuits.

But I’m sure you’ve seen people with the RX-A1080/1070 with multiple 4 ohm speakers in their 5.1/7.1 systems, right?

Ever actually seen the AVR incapable of powering them?

To be honest, I rarely pay attention to the speaker impedance unless it's known to be difficult for the average amplifier and there just aren't that many and with AVRs, the main and surround speakers are crossed over far above the region where the impedance dips.

That said, and I'm returning to the thread about whether amplifiers should be rated for 'All channels driven', we wouldn't be discussing this if all channels were driven during the tests and the amp/power supply circuits were more robust. Is it needed in all applications? No. Is that what I want? Definitely. Which is better- a car that can accelerate uphill, or a car that can accelerate on flat ground? Depends- if it's always on flat ground, it doesn't really need to be able to accelerate uphill.

People who design systems for commercial/industrial systems base their choices on the application. We should, too.

 

[highfigh]

As quoted by Trell above, on Page 23 of the manual for the RX-A1080, it refers to connecting 4 ohms speakers to the front channels. IMO, this would include the center channel which often necessitates more power than the left or right channel.

In the midrange, sure- the main speakers are called on to provide the bass unless that has been handed off to a sub but if there's no dialog, which doesn't place great demands on the center channel, the mains are doing most of the work.

I would kind of like to know the overall wattage draw of each of the electronics, actually.

How many powered-subwoofers, amps, and receivers can one person plug into a standard 15 amp wall outlet?

Get an energy use monitor and check- I think you'll be surprised by how little an AV system uses, on average.

 

[PENG]

I mentioned multiple times before that we cannot just go by the "power consumption". For one thing, there don't seem to be one single standard being followed by all.

The mains fuse, smoothing caps and output device ratings may actually provide a little more insight. Fuse ratings may be useful but not all that reliable either because different power transformers could have different inrush current characteristics, combined with the possibility that some manufacturers may have build in features to reduce the inrush current thereby allowing them to lower the fusing ratio, though it is a safer bet to compare models within the same brand.

Below are info I managed to gather on the fuse, caps and output transistor's ratings (100% accuracy not guaranteed):

You can see the potential jump in power supply size from the RXA800 series to the RXA1000 series.

For those who insist to compare power output based on the specified power consumption, below are some examples of what you can find from their respective Owner's Manuals. Note that I only include models that are based on class AB amps.

Yamaha RX-A2060, same for the RX-A3060:
Canada model.............................................................. 400 W
Korea model.................................................................. 390 W
Other model.................................................................. 490 W
Maximum (Asia, Brazil, and general models.............. 1,210 W

Anthem MRX1120........................................................ 570 W (typical load)

Anthem MCA525 (5X225 W)....................................... 550 W (typical).......1200 W (high output)

Marantz SR7012........................................................... 710 W

NAD T758 V3.................................................................53 W (idle)

Rotel RSX1562 (7X100 W)............................................500 W

 

[Andrein]

1. Definitely nice to get the A1000, A2000, and A3000 series for the main HT.
2. Since we were really debating the A1000 series, not the A800 series, I am glad the A1000 worked out great for you.
3. What kind of distortion did you think you hear? Did you hear this distortion BEFORE the A860’s review?
4. I think All Channel Stereo Mode represents ALL CHANNELS DRIVEN more than anything. And the fact that the A860 never even went protection mode speaks volumes.

I heard some sort of clicks during loud songs i had listed to million times since i was 13. I knew those clicks should not have been there. Just 2 or 3 weird moments during some of the songs. Very quickly. And then you are sitting and asking your self what it was. Power amp fixed the problem. But as i said i went for a1070 anyway. I would buy 2070 but the only location for my subs are symmetrical in relation to the sofa. So independent sub delays option of a20x0 and a30x0 is irrelevant for me anyway.

 

[Andrein]

I heard some sort of clicks during loud songs i had listed to million times since i was 13. I knew those clicks should not have been there. Just 2 or 3 weird moments during some of the songs. Very quickly. And then you are sitting and asking your self what it was. Power amp fixed the problem. But as i said i went for a1070 anyway. I would buy 2070 but the only location for my subs are symmetrical in relation to the sofa. So independent sub delays option of a20x0 and a30x0 is irrelevant for me anyway.

Unfortunately I read a860 review too late. Otherwise i would never buy it in the first place.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I heard some sort of clicks during loud songs i had listed to million times since i was 13. I knew those clicks should not have been there. Just 2 or 3 weird moments during some of the songs. Very quickly. And then you are sitting and asking your self what it was. Power amp fixed the problem. But as i said i went for a1070 anyway. I would buy 2070 but the only location for my subs are symmetrical in relation to the sofa. So independent sub delays option of a20x0 and a30x0 is irrelevant for me anyway.

Well, I don't recommend All-channels Stereo mode for any AVR anyway, much less for the Yamaha 800-series and below.

Again, to recap, this recent debate is about whether the Yamaha RX-A1080 is capable of powering more than just two 4-ohm speakers. It is NOT about the lower Yamaha models (800 or lower models).

I think what most of us have concluded for a long time (based on PENG's numbers, Gene's lab, your experience) is that if you want a serious HT, you want to get the Yamaha 1000, 2000, and 3000 models or Denon 3000, 4000, and up.

Or like @TLS Guy would say, you can also get a pre-pro and add your own 200WPC amps.

 

[M Code]

We have been a CEDIA installer for >15 years and have access to all of the key brands. But a couple of things that are pertinent to an installer are:
1. Reliability
2. Ease of Use
3. Compatibility & interoperability for HDMI components

During this time we have installed many, many Yamaha products from stereo receivers, AV receivers, AV components, CD products, integrated amplifiers. During this period we have had only 3 failures, 2 AVRs & 1 CD player... Once we teach the user how to operate the respective products, which can take some time few questions are raised. 1 factor we greatly appreciate is the Yamaha functional smart phone app, to most users it is easier to understand & use vs.the basic remote control. Note that we provide our customers a 5 year no questions-asked warranty so product reliability and customer satisfaction are pertinent.

I have noted the various comments about the A860 and question Gene was his review sample an early production sample that may not represent the performance of actual production units. Being inside of many of the well-known brands, very frequently test samples were either pilot samples and/or early production units. Since the average product life today of a CE product may be less than a year, often it takes up to 6 months from the time a test sample is submitted and the actual report is published..

Just my $0.02...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

But a couple of things that are pertinent to an installer are:
1. Reliability
2. Ease of Use
3. Compatibility & interoperability for HDMI components

Don't forget to mention "Sound Quality" because somebody will come along and say, "But what about sound quality?"

 

[Phase 2]

About time M Code showed up! I was beginning to worry maybe somebody kidnapped him..

 

[Phase 2]

Well, I don't recommend All-channels Stereo mode for any AVR anyway, much less for the Yamaha 800-series and below.

Again, to recap, this recent debate is about whether the Yamaha RX-A1080 is capable of powering more than just two 4-ohm speakers. It is NOT about the lower Yamaha models (800 or lower models).

I think what most of us have concluded for a long time (based on PENG's numbers, Gene's lab, your experience) is that if you want a serious HT, you want to get the Yamaha 1000, 2000, and 3000 models or Denon 3000, 4000, and up.

Or like @TLS Guy would say, you can also get a pre-pro and add your own 200WPC amps.

Oh now you went and done it!! You mention TLS Guy on a AVR thread! Everybody knows he Hates All AVR'S no matter who made it! Come to think about it, he been missing to, sure hope he ok? Did he move or something?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Oh now you went and done it!! You mention TLS Guy on a AVR thread! Everybody knows he Hates All AVR'S no matter who made it! Come to think about it, he been missing to, sure hope he ok? Did he move or something?

Yeah, he eats AVR for breakfast.

 

[hifihillbilly]

If this has already been answered, forgive me for missing it. I'm looking at the Yamaha RX-A3080 or the Anthem MRX-720 to couple with my existing Emotiva XPA-5 Gen2 amp.
Thoughts???

 

[Phase 2]

If this has already been answered, forgive me for missing it. I'm looking at the Yamaha RX-A3080 or the Anthem MRX-720 to couple with my existing Emotiva XPA-5 Gen2 amp.
Thoughts???

My thoughts will match up well.
What speakers you got? I'd go into your room size, but Me? When I bought my amps I didn't care how close or how far I was sitting from my speakers, i just wanted to blow the dust off the walls every now and then. But no really at or above reference levels you'll enjoy that amp. Normal listening you won't notice much of a difference if any.

 

[M Code]

Don't forget to mention "Sound Quality" because somebody will come along and say, "But what about sound quality?"

If a product doesn't sound good(audio products) and/or look good(video products) it doesn't make the recommended install list..
But...
IMHO...
The majority of brands/products discussed on the AH forum and/or tested by Gene have already been assumed to be good sounding..
I think the bulk of comments questioning sound quality maybe more due to a component mismatch, faulty install, bad room acoustics or naive consumer. Today it is crucial to match up properly the system components including loudspeakers, AVRs, amplifiers, source devices in order to obtain the best final sonics/results...
But that again why we get paid the big $...

Just my $0.02...

 

[M Code]

About time M Code showed up! I was beginning to worry maybe somebody kidnapped him..

Ha ha ha..
I just got out released on good behavior...

Just my $0.02...

 

[Phase 2]

If a product doesn't sound good(audio products) and/or look good(video products) it doesn't make the recommended install list..
But...
IMHO...
The majority of brands/products discussed on the AH forum and/or tested by Gene have already been assumed to be good sounding..
I think the bulk of comments questioning sound quality maybe more due to a component mismatch, faulty install, bad room acoustics or naive consumer. Today it is crucial to match up properly the system components including loudspeakers, AVRs, amplifiers, source devices in order to obtain the best final sonics/results...
But that again why we get paid the big $...

Just my $0.02...

Hey, M Code, can I come work for you? . Man you gotta a great job!

 

[hifihillbilly]

My thoughts will match up well.
What speakers you got? I'd go into your room size, but Me? When I bought my amps I didn't care how close or how far I was sitting from my speakers, i just wanted to blow the dust off the walls every now and then. But no really at or above reference levels you'll enjoy that amp. Normal listening you won't notice much of a difference if any.

Currently I have Goldenear supersats with Forcefield sub. Looking to add more.

 

[KEW]

Oh, the debate is on!

Not really much room for debate. My post was mostly a compilation of measurement/facts aside from the ending personal commentary on what a great company Yamaha has been and my disappointment that they would "shamelessly" decide to cut back on the power supply so aggressively.

But you left some low hanging fruit, so I will debate some of your points.

As I’ve posted many times on the forum. For a few years I had a cheap $400 5.1 AVR rated at only 50WPC that powered five DefTech speakers that all dipped into the 2.7 ohms and 3.5 ohms (BP7000, BP7001, CLR3000). The room was 15 x 18 x 15’ ceiling. Volume was always quite loud. And not once did this cheap a$$ AVR go into protection mode.

I wonder if that is the same $400 AVR that Gene mentioned as being more robust than the $900 A860!
From Gene's review:

It's sad that a $400 predecessor from the very same company offered a more robust amp and power section than this product, which has AVENTAGE moniker stamped on it.

Gene is specifically saying the amp and power section of this $900 AVR is not as good as a previous "cheap a$$" $400 AVR from Yamaha! So your argument that "even a $400 AVR can do it" is not very compelling.

I find it extremely hilarious when I see people say that all these 100WPC AVRs cannot even power more than two 4-ohms speakers.

You do recognize that it wasn't "people", but Yamaha that said it first in their manual?
Excuse us for thinking Yamaha might know what they are talking about regarding products that they designed and manufactured!
Maybe they don't, but in that case they should correct their manual rather than mislead the customer. Either way the problem falls on Yamaha more than people being "hilarious" because they actually believe Yamaha's guide for using the product is an authoritative source of information!

Before we start calling them “shameful”, let’s get some ACTUAL REAL WORLD proof other than theories based on lab measurements.

Lab measurements are about as close to real world proof as we are going to see unless Yamaha is more forthcoming on the what and why of their claim that the 1060 is not capable of driving more than a pair of 4 ohm speakers. Although somewhat cryptic, there is also a note on the back of the AVR next to the speaker terminals where it allows for 4ohms for the fronts and 6ohms for the others!

Non-sequitur:
By the way, I was surprised to see that the Yamaha A1060 is discounted to $550 as a refurb on A4L (and 2070 for $800).
I don't remember such good deals on refurbbed Yamahas in the past!
Based on Peng's information on capacitors and power draw, I think the 1060 offers a reasonable amp/power section and would consider this a pretty good deal for someone wanting a Yamaha AVR.
https://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/yamrxa1060bl/yamaha-rx-a1060-7.2-ch-x-110-watts-a/v-receiver/1.html

 

[OTLJosh]

If a product doesn't sound good(audio products) and/or look good(video products) it doesn't make the recommended install list..
But...
IMHO...
The majority of brands/products discussed on the AH forum and/or tested by Gene have already been assumed to be good sounding..
I think the bulk of comments questioning sound quality maybe more due to a component mismatch, faulty install, bad room acoustics or naive consumer. Today it is crucial to match up properly the system components including loudspeakers, AVRs, amplifiers, source devices in order to obtain the best final sonics/results...
But that again why we get paid the big $...

Just my $0.02...

I would also assume personal preferences are often confused with quality. For some Audyssey is good enough and works fine but others with audio sensitivity prefer the minute adjustments available to the Dirac systems.

 

[snakeeyes]

Happiness starts at the 2000 series. LOL.

Actually I really like my RXA2060 and that was the sweet spot for me. Good luck!