Denon/Marantz vs Yamaha vs Anthem Thread

[PENG]

Here's another question.

Do most people buy Denon because of some of the talks about power output and All-Channels-Driven results compared to Yamaha?

I'm sure Yamaha's conservative/stringent protection circuits doesn't help.

Or is it mainly (not ONLY) because of all these huge Denon discounts like 40-50% off?

It seems like Yamaha and Sony don't offer as much discounts as Denon.

For me it is for the preout voltage.

 

[Phase 2]

Man, what's next? Bose speakers gonna join up with Salk?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

For me it is for the preout voltage.

That definitely has been talked about. So a factor for sure.

But in real life, has the pre-out voltage stopped anyone from using external amps?

Has anyone been unable to use external amps with their Yamaha 1000, 2000, 3000 AVR?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Man, what's next? Bose speakers gonna join up with Salk?

You're asking for a fight now.

Better start running with your bullet-proof vest.

 

[lovinthehd]

That definitely has been talked about. So a factor for sure.

But in real life, has the pre-out voltage stopped anyone from using external amps?

Has anyone been unable to use external amps with their Yamaha 1000, 2000, 3000 AVR?

I've seen several complaints about not being able to drive the amp to full output with some Yamaha avrs...whether true or not is another thing, tho.

 

[KEW]

I am sure the RX-A series are fine, but if I were to use an AVR as prepro I would go with Denon or Marantz. In my opinion, the slightly more reliability concerns can be mitigated somewhat by spending $20 on some quiet fans.

Is this truly what you meant to say? The unit that Gene identified as being deficient was a RX-A860!

 

[PENG]

That definitely has been talked about. So a factor for sure.

But in real life, has the pre-out voltage stopped anyone from using external amps?

Has anyone been unable to use external amps with their Yamaha 1000, 2000, 3000 AVR?

Those who need more than 300 W peaks from amps with 27 to 29 dB gains to get their desired spl may hear the effects of minor clipping depending on the individual's hearing. Those who don't probably don't need external amps anyway.

 

[PENG]

Is this truly what you meant to say? The unit that Gene identified as being deficient was a RX-A860!

Yes, the higher models may be great but until I see more test results on them, I see no need to take the risk. That's just me, and the I don't even listen loud enough to be affected..

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Those who need more than 300 W peaks from amps with 27 to 29 dB gains to get their desired spl may hear the effects of minor clipping depending on the individual's hearing. Those who don't probably don't need external amps anyway.

Did you ever compile a Preamp Output Chart for the Yamaha vs DM?

I know my Yamaha CX pre-pro has a 8 Vrms for balanced and 4 Vrms for unbalanced outputs. But not much about the other Yamaha AVRs.

I think many consumer amps are 1.4 Vrms (26dB Voltage Gain, 1.35 Vrms @ 8 ohms),right?

Some amps are 32dB Voltage Gain @ 8 ohms, 0.775 Vrms.

So ideally, we want AVR to have at least 1.4 Vrms pre-out?

Any advantages to having higher preamp output sensitivity, like beyond 2 Vrms?

 

[Phase 2]

You're asking for a fight now.

Better start running with your bullet-proof vest.

Lolo... it's all subjectiveness audio. The best Speakers are the ones a person is happy with. Whether they cost fifty bucks or 50000 bucks. Same goes like 100000 buck car or a 1500 buck car. They all got black tire's. No matter how we slice this hobby of audio, like an old man once told me, it's all noise no matter how you slice it no matter whats applied to it no matter what facts. Still just noise. Some pay a lot of money trying to get the quietest cleanest noise they can possibly hear. Maybe them new millennials have it all figured out get you an Apple iPhone some earbuds be done with it ..lolo

 

[ryanosaur]

Man, what's next? Bose speakers gonna join up with Salk?

You're asking for a fight now.

 

[Phase 2]

Guys, am just messing around. Really I'm not giving up on Yamaha's. Everybody that knows me my thing is enjoying my gear. I love talking about my hobby with anyone who'll listen. I leave the technical stuff up to Gene, PENG, M Code, KEW, and the rest of you audio gru's. I know just enough technical end just to get me in trouble with you guys.

 

[ryanosaur]

Guys, am just messing around. Really I'm not giving up on Yamaha's. Everybody that knows me my thing is enjoying my gear. I love talking about my hobby with anyone who'll listen. I leave the technical stuff up to Gene, PENG, M Code, KEW, and the rest of you audio gru's. I know just enough technical end just to get me in trouble with you guys.

Dunno how all this has played out previously, considering I'm still shy of my one yr anniversary with the SR6012... but it seems the next two years are going to be very interesting in the AVR/AVP market.

@Phase 2 : The only thing keeping Jim from attaining Hero status in my book is my receiving the speakers... about 20 miles away, in a trailer in a freight yard!!! They could be here tomorrow. *so eager

 

[Phase 2]

Dunno how all this has played out previously, considering I'm still shy of my one yr anniversary with the SR6012... but it seems the next two years are going to be very interesting in the AVR/AVP market.

@Phase 2 : The only thing keeping Jim from attaining Hero status in my book is my receiving the speakers... about 20 miles away, in a trailer in a freight yard!!! They could be here tomorrow. *so eager

Lolo...you do know I was picking, No way in hell can Bose hold a candle to Salks! That was a shot at manufacturers, mainly the bean counters. Really am envious your about to embark on some really great sit down sessions with a pair of beautiful sounding speakers. I do go on Salks website, and I stare for a Looong time.

 

[PENG]

So basically, if you intend to pair your prepro, or AVR with a power amp, 2 Vrms output would be fine for amps rated 200 to 300 W max, and have voltage gain of 28 dB or higher.

I measured my AVR-X4400H and AV8801 and have no doubt they both can output 4.0 Vrms without any obvious issues, but I am not sure if the THD+N at that level would still be acceptable, as i don't even have a spectrum analyzer, let alone the highly regarded AP analyzer that Gene has.

Below is from my Excel spreadsheet that shows the achievable power output vs voltage gain in dB and preout voltage in Vrms.

Blue - Gain in dB
Red - Achievable power output in Watts

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Here's another question.

Do most people buy Denon because of some of the talks about power output and All-Channels-Driven results compared to Yamaha?

I'm sure Yamaha's conservative/stringent protection circuits doesn't help.

Or is it mainly (not ONLY) because of all these huge Denon discounts like 40-50% off?

It seems like Yamaha and Sony don't offer as much discounts as Denon.

For me it’s because Yamahas sound too warm.

 

[highfigh]

For me it is for the preout voltage.

Why? As long as the power amp gets the voltage it can use to develop full power, a preamp being able to output higher voltage is more academic than anything else as long as the noise level from the power amp isn't excessive at low levels.

 

[PENG]

Why? As long as the power amp gets the voltage it can use to develop full power, a preamp being able to output higher voltage is more academic than anything else as long as the noise level from the power amp isn't excessive at low levels.

I guess you didn't read the earlier posts..

 

[Phase 2]

I guess you didn't read the earlier posts..

Dan, over at Emotiva, stated that once, cause a lot of owners of Elmo, amps where complaining about the high gain of 32. So when all the Elmo amp owners would first crank up their new Elmo amp, they noticed they didn't have to go as high with the volume dial. Them Elmo amp owners where all over any Forum saying how Elmo amps where the end game cause of the low price. So without the ones who didn't know that the high gain on their new Elmo amp was the reason they didn't have to crank up the volume as high on their dial. So they didn't really know they drank some special Kool-Aid.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

View attachment 29563

That’s a great chart, PENG!

So if you own the A860 pre-production model (1Vrms) and you own an amp with 32dB Gain, you could output 200W, not that you want to do that. But if you have a 26dB amp, the 1Vrms gets you 50W.

Do you know what the preamp output voltage of the Yamaha A1080 (any 1000 series or higher) is?