The difference between pro and home-audio TT needles?

[killdozzer]

Which cartridge alignment method did you use?

Please allow me a counter-question just to cover more ground; is what I described (the cone pulsating silently) connected with the alignment?

I used the original alignment proposed by the producer for this unit; needle to headshell neck = 52mm. I used the manual DLed from the vinylengine.

I'll be fair and say once again that I can't vouch for the precision of the simple house ruler that I had at my disposal for this task.

 

[highfigh]

Thank you. Is this so bullet proof as you say? I must say, much to TLS's dread, that I'm slowly coming back to where I first started. This is why; no cone pulsating can be noticed with the tone-arm lifted, BUT, the pulsating is also lighter or even barely noticable when the tone-arm is close to the spindle. This is why I'm back to wondering whether this could originate from the TT's mechanism itself.

When the tonearm is close to the spindle, is the arm up, or down? If it's up, you should see no cone movement. If it's down, I think that the LP not being flat is the cause, not the mechanism.

What preamp are you using? If it doesn't have a Low (Subsonic) filter, it would be best to have one. They used this in the past, when turntables were the main source but it seems that they forgot to add it to newer models.

 

[killdozzer]

Yep. They sure forgot. The amp I'm trying to fix (in another thread) have the filters, but it was the same. Even on those B&W Matrix S1 I mentioned I got.

Cone pulsating occurs only with the needle down and it far worse at the beginning of the record.

When I did the tests, I used NAD 106 pre-amp. The pre-amp was connected to the CD inputs of the AVR and later on I plugged the pre-amp into the "external decoder" inputs just to see if there's any difference.

 

[<eargiant]

Please allow me a counter-question just to cover more ground; is what I described (the cone pulsating silently) connected with the alignment?

I used the original alignment proposed by the producer for this unit; needle to headshell neck = 52mm. I used the manual DLed from the vinylengine.

I'll be fair and say once again that I can't vouch for the precision of the simple house ruler that I had at my disposal for this task.

Yes, it is possible. With a turntable, every small adjustment matters (as does equipment, phonostages, etc.) Remember, there is a rock being dragged through the grooves of another material. Any resistance that is not optimal may come through as you describe. Not to mention the TT itself, wiring, placement, etc., etc.

I've had perfect records do what your describing on some setups and not others.

52mm sounds correct for that arm but if you don't have the original Technics gauge I would download a "Stevenson" Protractor from VE (works fine for Technics). Print it and follow the instructions carefully, make sure you measure the line on the side to make sure your printer didn't re-size it. Make a hole for the spindle and place it on your platter. Check where the stylus lines-up on the two grid-points. Also be sure that it lines up with the squares evenly on the front and sides. the cart must be straight and centered. If needed move the cart so that the stylus tip is in the exact center point with the cart body aligned to the grids. Also make sure the azimuth looks pretty good (the cart is not angled to one side sightly when you look at it head on. Then re-check the tone arm weight and anti-skate. As mentioned, make sure the TT is level in all directions. If it has VTA start with a level arm. If your cartridge is set-up properly you should never hear any sibilance on vocals even as you approach the inner grooves. Sibilance is a good indicator of a poorly set up cart.

Also, try playing it without the dustcover on to see if it helps.

In the end it's very possible that you will still get the pulsating woofer because you don't have a subsonic filter. If you really get into vinyl you can always buy a unit like the one below if you don't want to get a different pre-amp with a subsonic filter.

https://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/rf1.htm

 

[davidscott]

Yes, it is possible. With a turntable, every small adjustment matters (as does equipment, phonostages, etc.) Remember, there is a rock being dragged through the grooves of another material. Any resistance that is not optimal may come through as you describe. Not to mention the TT itself, wiring, placement, etc., etc.

I've had perfect records do what your describing on some setups and not others.

52mm sounds correct for that arm but if you don't have the original Technics gauge I would download a "Stevenson" Protractor from VE (works fine for Technics). Print it and follow the instructions carefully, make sure you measure the line on the side to make sure your printer didn't re-size it. Make a hole for the spindle and place it on your platter. Check where the stylus lines-up on the two grid-points. Also be sure that it lines up with the squares evenly on the front and sides. the cart must be straight and centered. If needed move the cart so that the stylus tip is in the exact center point with the cart body aligned to the grids. Also make sure the azimuth looks pretty good (the cart is not angled to one side sightly when you look at it head on. Then re-check the tone arm weight and anti-skate. As mentioned, make sure the TT is level in all directions. If it has VTA start with a level arm. If your cartridge is set-up properly you should never hear any sibilance on vocals even as you approach the inner grooves. Sibilance is a good indicator of a poorly set up cart.

Also, try playing it without the dustcover on to see if it helps.

In the end it's very possible that you will still get the pulsating woofer because you don't have a subsonic filter. If you really get into vinyl you can always buy a unit like the one below if you don't want to get a different pre-amp with a subsonic filter.

https://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/rf1.htm

I might have to look into on of those. I don't notice and particular problem with pulsating woofers but then again I don't really crank up the volume in my apt. Still it does seem to make some sense to have a phono subsonic filter.

 

[killdozzer]

Yes, it is possible. With a turntable, every small adjustment matters (as does equipment, phonostages, etc.) Remember, there is a rock being dragged through the grooves of another material. Any resistance that is not optimal may come through as you describe. Not to mention the TT itself, wiring, placement, etc., etc.

I've had perfect records do what your describing on some setups and not others.

52mm sounds correct for that arm but if you don't have the original Technics gauge I would download a "Stevenson" Protractor from VE (works fine for Technics). Print it and follow the instructions carefully, make sure you measure the line on the side to make sure your printer didn't re-size it. Make a hole for the spindle and place it on your platter. Check where the stylus lines-up on the two grid-points. Also be sure that it lines up with the squares evenly on the front and sides. the cart must be straight and centered. If needed move the cart so that the stylus tip is in the exact center point with the cart body aligned to the grids. Also make sure the azimuth looks pretty good (the cart is not angled to one side sightly when you look at it head on. Then re-check the tone arm weight and anti-skate. As mentioned, make sure the TT is level in all directions. If it has VTA start with a level arm. If your cartridge is set-up properly you should never hear any sibilance on vocals even as you approach the inner grooves. Sibilance is a good indicator of a poorly set up cart.

Also, try playing it without the dustcover on to see if it helps.

In the end it's very possible that you will still get the pulsating woofer because you don't have a subsonic filter. If you really get into vinyl you can always buy a unit like the one below if you don't want to get a different pre-amp with a subsonic filter.

https://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/rf1.htm

No dust cover reduces the effect I described, I mentioned that. Also, I do have an amp with filters, it's the one I'm cleaning pots for. I did a test run, but the cones were pulsating equally.

I got a good protractor that is supposed to be ideal for this TT (as it has the same length as SL):

 

[killdozzer]

I might have to look into on of those. I don't notice and particular problem with pulsating woofers but then again I don't really crank up the volume in my apt. Still it does seem to make some sense to have a phono subsonic filter.

That's the problem, I don't really have to crank it to get this effect. It's at the volume I'd be comfortable listening at.

 

[TLS Guy]

That's the problem, I don't really have to crank it to get this effect. It's at the volume I'd be comfortable listening at.

The arm mass/cartridge mass/cartridge compliance are in resonance. This is such a common problem with Far Eastern turntables. There is a very good reason I only use SME arms.

If you are clever you could make a silicon fluid bath in the arm and attach a paddle to the arm. That would likely stop it.

 

[killdozzer]

The arm mass/cartridge mass/cartridge compliance are in resonance.

But is this suppose to happen even when you follow the recommended settings? I mean, this TT was a pretty good home model, what people later used to call "home-pro", (if you can suspend your dislike for the far east for a moment). I don't think they would release a resonating tone arm. Also, I calculated a rather comforting 9.62Hz resonant frequency.

If you are clever you could make a silicon fluid bath in the arm and attach a paddle to the arm.

Not that clever.

 

[TLS Guy]

But is this suppose to happen even when you follow the recommended settings? I mean, this TT was a pretty good home model, what people later used to call "home-pro", (if you can suspend your dislike for the far east for a moment). I don't think they would release a resonating tone arm. Also, I calculated a rather comforting 9.62Hz resonant frequency.


Not that clever.

Well somehow there is a resonance. I think that turntable is a semiautomatic. All of those type of semiautomatic turntables I have ever set up have had unpleasant issues. Among the commonest has been the issue you describe. The only way I know of stopping it for sure is a steep high pass filter at 30 Hz.

 

[<eargiant]

The arm mass/cartridge mass/cartridge compliance are in resonance. This is such a common problem with Far Eastern turntables. There is a very good reason I only use SME arms.

If you are clever you could make a silicon fluid bath in the arm and attach a paddle to the arm. That would likely stop it.

Is that a knife edge?

BTW, you're painting with a mighty broad brush when you disparage "far eastern" turntables. There are several "far eastern" turntables with "stock" arms that would give what you have there a walloping.

 

[killdozzer]

Well somehow there is a resonance.

And there's that, yes. I'm just trying to eliminate some variables at least. Not to spend time and money poking around something that's not the cause. That's why I'm asking.

Before refreshing the suspention, I'm not doing anything more expensive.

 

[highfigh]

Yep. They sure forgot. The amp I'm trying to fix (in another thread) have the filters, but it was the same. Even on those B&W Matrix S1 I mentioned I got.

Cone pulsating occurs only with the needle down and it far worse at the beginning of the record.

When I did the tests, I used NAD 106 pre-amp. The pre-amp was connected to the CD inputs of the AVR and later on I plugged the pre-amp into the "external decoder" inputs just to see if there's any difference.

The outer area of the LP moves faster than the inner areas, so there's more force acting on the stylus. That's the reason for record clamps- flatten the LP and a lot of resonances will be diminished.

Line inputs and Ext Decoder inputs are the same, electrically. You should hear no difference.

 

[killdozzer]

Line inputs and Ext Decoder inputs are the same, electrically. You should hear no difference.

Auuuu, there's a lot of difference. A lot! But it's because the former owner probably bought into all this "digital source sounding too crisp, too clear and cold". It is so obvious he tried to make the CD sound warmer. He did some custom settings for the sound on that channel, now my CD's sound like listening with your head dipped in a bucket of honey (for the lack of better description) and I really had no patience undoing all he did, so I just use external decoder as a sort of pure direct for it bypasses all such setting and DTS entirely. Of course, my CD's sound perfect (to me) just the way they are with no custom settings.

As far as TT goes, I have some far simpler things I need to do and far less expensive. I've noticed that felt on the feet got flatten so thin that the TT sits directly on plastic feet. It's not a bad place to start. Also, this evening I finally have some free time to clean the pots on the amp. I'll let you all know.

 

[lovinthehd]

The outer area of the LP moves faster than the inner areas, so there's more force acting on the stylus. That's the reason for record clamps- flatten the LP and a lot of resonances will be diminished.

Line inputs and Ext Decoder inputs are the same, electrically. You should hear no difference.

I've never used a clamp or weight, suspect they're fairly much snake oil for vinylphiles. Was there any definitive testing other than the "reviews" by Fremer and his ilk?

 

[<eargiant]

I've never used a clamp or weight, suspect they're fairly much snake oil for vinylphiles. Was there any definitive testing other than the "reviews" by Fremer and his ilk?

Don't get carried away with the cynicism. Clamps do work for records that need it. You can actually see a warped record flatten down to the platter when a clamp is used properly (sometimes with spacers) ...That is a good thing and will have audible and visible (speaker cone) results.

 

[lovinthehd]

Don't get carried away with the cynicism. Clamps do work for records that need it. You can actually see a warped record flatten down to the platter when a clamp is used properly (sometimes with spacers) ...That is a good thing and will have audible and visible (speaker cone) results.

Why would I use a warped record? It might flatten some of it...maybe.

 

[<eargiant]

Why would I use a warped record? It might flatten some of it...maybe.

You don't have to, but many people do have some favorite records that have a slight warp. You can find tons of video proof on Youtube that show they work well (no maybe's) when used properly.

I think you're confusing a clamp with a record weight.

 

[lovinthehd]

You don't have to, but many people do have some favorite records that have a slight warp. You can find tons of video proof on Youtube that show they work well (no maybe's) when used properly.

I think you're confusing a clamp with a record weight.

Well I think weights are extra silly, so there's that. I'm certainly not going to look to youtube for proof, tho....I'll take your word some warped records can be improved with a clamping mechanism instead of just getting rid of the defective record...

 

[killdozzer]

An unexpected resolution. I was falsely under the impression that both my preamp and power amp have the needed filter for the vinyl, but it was only the power amp and the first time I tested the equipment when I got it I obviously connected the pre amp to THX ins which bypass needed filters.

Now I got my power amp up'n'running, I tested the TT again thru "proper channels" and the cones are as still as one might hope. So it's an end to two of my adventures.

I'm still going to replace the felt from the bottom of the TT's feet, no need for it to sit directly on plastic. But it seems no further work will be required at this point.

Weight of my shoulders, people!!