The difference between pro and home-audio TT needles?

[lovinthehd]

An unexpected resolution. I was falsely under the impression that both my preamp and power amp have the needed filter for the vinyl, but it was only the power amp and the first time I tested the equipment when I got it I obviously connected the pre amp to THX ins which bypass needed filters.

Now I got my power amp up'n'running, I tested the TT again thru "proper channels" and the cones are as still as one might hope. So it's an end to two of my adventures.

I'm still going to replace the felt from the bottom of the TT's feet, no need for it to sit directly on plastic. But it seems no further work will be required at this point.

Weight of my shoulders, people!!

Power amp with filters?

 

[killdozzer]

Power amp with filters?

Yes, the power amp has filters built in:

 

[<eargiant]

Well I think weights are extra silly, so there's that. I'm certainly not going to look to youtube for proof, tho....I'll take your word some warped records can be improved with a clamping mechanism instead of just getting rid of the defective record...

One quality clamp is cheaper than buying several records. Some people have very large record collections so chances are that more than one or two records may have a warp. Also, some records are rare or desirable pressings and may be difficult to come by or are very expensive.

 

[highfigh]

I've never used a clamp or weight, suspect they're fairly much snake oil for vinylphiles. Was there any definitive testing other than the "reviews" by Fremer and his ilk?

Screw Fremer. I have a clamp- it flattens LPs and reduces the subsonic energy. I have had low filters since 1978 and they have always been defeatable, which has allowed me to see the effect and when I got the clamp, I tried it without the filter- it reduced the cone's movement significantly. If the LP is cupped, the stylus can't possibly be making contact with both sides equally and at a right angle. If the warp is like a wave, think about the force acting on the stylus and tonearm- it goes up and compresses the cantilever, which tries to resist, but has to move where it goes because the tonearm's mass makes it resist the cantilever's force. The height corresponds to the amplitude of what the cartridge produces and it's all at very low frequencies, which can modulate the rest of the signal, it wastes amplifier power and causes some woofers to 'bottom out'. If the warp is bad enough and/or the stylus compliance is wrong, the stylus can lose contact completely.

As I wrote, I recommend a clamp, not a weight, although adding weight can dampen vibrations in the base because it changes the resonant frequency- I just wouldn't put it on the spindle because it could cause problems for the bearing.

 

[highfigh]

Well I think weights are extra silly, so there's that. I'm certainly not going to look to youtube for proof, tho....I'll take your word some warped records can be improved with a clamping mechanism instead of just getting rid of the defective record...

It's Physics, not silly. Nobody is saying Unicorns suddenly appear when a clamp or weight is used.

Look at an oscillogram of musical signal and then, overlay a 5Hz-15Hz signal from a warp- what do you think that will do to the signal you want to amplify? Now, think about the tonearm resonances after they encounter the vertical warp.

If you don't have a turntable or have very limited experience with them, you'll need to see it happen.

Not all LPs are easily replaceable- some have great music but are hard to find.

 

[highfigh]

Auuuu, there's a lot of difference. A lot! But it's because the former owner probably bought into all this "digital source sounding too crisp, too clear and cold". It is so obvious he tried to make the CD sound warmer. He did some custom settings for the sound on that channel, now my CD's sound like listening with your head dipped in a bucket of honey (for the lack of better description) and I really had no patience undoing all he did, so I just use external decoder as a sort of pure direct for it bypasses all such setting and DTS entirely. Of course, my CD's sound perfect (to me) just the way they are with no custom settings.

As far as TT goes, I have some far simpler things I need to do and far less expensive. I've noticed that felt on the feet got flatten so thin that the TT sits directly on plastic feet. It's not a bad place to start. Also, this evening I finally have some free time to clean the pots on the amp. I'll let you all know.

I have never seen a power amp that had filters unless it also had some kind of DSP- filters are almost always in preamps, receivers and integrated amps although I have never looked for filters in a power amp. I didn't mean line in and an external decoder are hte same, I meant that the input circuitry in an Aux in and Ext Decoder In are the same. It's the decoder that makes the changes and the inputs on a preamp, integrated amp or receiver need to be neutral unless it's something like the THX input, as you mentioned.

 

[highfigh]

Why would I use a warped record? It might flatten some of it...maybe.

Depends on the warp- if it's outside of where the clamp makes a difference, it's time to replace or try to flatten it in some other way. People have come up with all kinds of ways to do that and some include heat, which I'm not sure I would recommend.

 

[highfigh]

But is this suppose to happen even when you follow the recommended settings? I mean, this TT was a pretty good home model, what people later used to call "home-pro", (if you can suspend your dislike for the far east for a moment). I don't think they would release a resonating tone arm. Also, I calculated a rather comforting 9.62Hz resonant frequency.


Not that clever.

Think about intermodulation- if the amplitude of the warp is sufficient, its effect causes sum and difference frequencies- if your LP has info in the 40Hz range, that's 49.62Hz and 30.38Hz. What if you already have signal in those ranges? If the warp is in phase or reverse phase, it's going to cause problems. 9.62Hz doesn't comfort me.

 

[highfigh]

The arm mass/cartridge mass/cartridge compliance are in resonance. This is such a common problem with Far Eastern turntables. There is a very good reason I only use SME arms.

If you are clever you could make a silicon fluid bath in the arm and attach a paddle to the arm. That would likely stop it.

You actually believe Japanese (or other) manufacturers couldn't/can't produce a tonearm that doesn't resonate or have friction-free bearings? I like SME too, but.....

 

[Verdinut]

You actually believe Japanese (or other) manufacturers couldn't/can't produce a tonearm that doesn't resonate or have friction-free bearings? I like SME too, but.....

I agree with you. I had an SME 3012 tone arm which I sold to one of my old friends more than 25 years ago.

Four years ago, I bought an Audio-Technica AT-LP1240 DJ turntable. It has a very good tone arm which suits my needs.

 

[lovinthehd]

Depends on the warp- if it's outside of where the clamp makes a difference, it's time to replace or try to flatten it in some other way. People have come up with all kinds of ways to do that and some include heat, which I'm not sure I would recommend.

Yes, my method is throwing it out if I can't rectify the warp and its been 25-30 years since I even bothered trying to fix a warp. So clamp a non-issue for me, cannot imagine it could possibly help in any other situation.

 

[highfigh]

Yes, my method is throwing it out if I can't rectify the warp and its been 25-30 years since I even bothered trying to fix a warp. So clamp a non-issue for me, cannot imagine it could possibly help in any other situation.

When I started working for a stereo store, we also sold records, so it was a complete non-issue for us- we could just put the warped LPs in the return box and take the replacement. One time, I got an LP with a chunk of cardboard in it. Never bothered to play it- I was able to punch it out from one side and it left a hole. Singe LPs were $4.99, double LPs started at $5.99.

I have some LPs that are slightly cupped- I'm not going to try to replace all of them- too much money.

 

[lovinthehd]

When I started working for a stereo store, we also sold records, so it was a complete non-issue for us- we could just put the warped LPs in the return box and take the replacement. One time, I got an LP with a chunk of cardboard in it. Never bothered to play it- I was able to punch it out from one side and it left a hole. Singe LPs were $4.99, double LPs started at $5.99.

I have some LPs that are slightly cupped- I'm not going to try to replace all of them- too much money.

It's only relatively recently I've seen such things as weights/clamps. Are they a reaction to poorer vinyl production methods? Or just some stuff to sell of limited value?

 

[Verdinut]

It's only relatively recently I've seen such things as weights/clamps. Are they a reaction to poorer vinyl production methods? Or just some stuff to sell of limited value?

They're useful for thin slightly warped vinyls such as the ones RCA used to make under the Dynagrooves name in the late 1960's and the 1970's IIRC.

 

[lovinthehd]

Yeah highfigh and I fleshed out the best use thing for warped records....but I just don't remember such devices back in the 70s and 80s. Maybe I just wasn't paying attention or the salesmen weren't trying...

They're useful for thin slightly warped vinyls such as the ones RCA used to make under the Dynagrooves name in the late 1960's and the 1970's IIRC.

 

[lovinthehd]

Diy clamp

 

[lovinthehd]

Maybe bigger is better?

 

[highfigh]

It's only relatively recently I've seen such things as weights/clamps. Are they a reaction to poorer vinyl production methods? Or just some stuff to sell of limited value?

No, they have been around for over 30 years. I got mine from the owner of a higher-end store and he had ordered the ones he sold from a turntable manufacturer that was known for their quality (among people willing to spend a lot of money on a turntable), so the price was right (free). If you have heard of the Michell Gyrodec, that's the company. I have never been interested in gimmicks- that's why I'm generally disgruntled when it comes to Audio/Video. Could be gruntled, though- there's a fine line between the two.

As I wrote, I don't believe it produces Unicorns, but for non-flat LPs, it helps.

 

[highfigh]

Maybe bigger is better?

Well, THAT's an oldie!

 

[lovinthehd]

Well, THAT's an oldie!

The clip's newer than the tt or record!