The difference between pro and home-audio TT needles?

[killdozzer]

The clip's newer than the tt or record!

I would label this post 'dumb' if you could take as a joke and nothing else.

Toole said something along those lines when it came to weight and clamps; weights - don't / clamp - do (if you have a warped record you can't easily replace).

However, I don't think that records which are ever so slightly warped (or not at all) for you to not be able to notice it while it's spinning on your table and not to notice the tone-arm raising even a bit, to be able to produce such wild pulsating of the cones (people, it's wild!!). I just don't think that's the problem and I even think that if you were here and had a chance to observe the equipment, you would all drop the assumption of warped records being to blame here. Quite the contrary, one of my records where I CAN clearly see the warp doesn't make the cones pulsate.

Since the subsonic filter took care of it, I'd go with @TLS Guy 's assumption of acoustic feedback. There's still some things I can do, but I take my time. I'm in no rush. I have to give some attention to the suspension D )

It lost some of its vigor. The upper part of the chassis sits hard atop the bottom part. Springs got stretched over time. I'll get that out of the way first and then I'll see where it leaves me.

 

[killdozzer]

!!!!!!!!
Also, I keep foregtting to ask, don't ask how; my Yamaha AVR manual says sometimes turntables sound better with ground not attached?

What's that about? I thought it was needed.

 

[lovinthehd]

I don't need the ground on my tt in my current setup, but have used it in other setups..

 

[killdozzer]

I don't need the ground on my tt in my current setup, but have used it in other setups..

How come? What would happen if I disconnect the ground?

Also, I had a chance to try this mat:

The cork/rubber one. That's such sh** I couldn't believe. Not only did it not work to stop the cones jumping, but it built up such static that it came off the TT together with the record It was stuck on it like a sticker, although the package said it doesn't build static. Useless and worthless.

BTW, I bought a new record, also for testing. So this one is flat, clean, new, decently produced, but the cones dance the same. The only thing that reduced the effect was using the NAD2700THX. But I have a feeling if I manage to lower it without the subsonic it will only be better with one.

Even with the new record, the pulsating is always stronger at the beginning than the inner part, close to the end.

I'm thinking about opening the TT and give it proper cleaning and oiling, maybe it IS a bad bearing after all.

 

[lovinthehd]

How come? What would happen if I disconnect the ground?

Also, I had a chance to try this mat:
View attachment 29580
The cork/rubber one. That's such sh** I couldn't believe. Not only did it not work to stop the cones jumping, but it built up such static that it came off the TT together with the record It was stuck on it like a sticker, although the package said it doesn't build static. Useless and worthless.

BTW, I bought a new record, also for testing. So this one is flat, clean, new, decently produced, but the cones dance the same. The only thing that reduced the effect was using the NAD2700THX. But I have a feeling if I manage to lower it without the subsonic it will only be better with one.

Even with the new record, the pulsating is always stronger at the beginning than the inner part, close to the end.

I'm thinking about opening the TT and give it proper cleaning and oiling, maybe it IS a bad bearing after all.

If you're not getting a ground loop hum type effect or not I imagine. I have gotten hum before solved by grounding....

Might just try a make-do stethoscope (inverted glass perhaps) on the plinth to see if you can identify any rumbling...

 

[killdozzer]

If you're not getting a ground loop hum type effect or not I imagine.

This is one tough sentence to wrap ones mind around. If... not... or not... I'm sorry, I didn't understand.

 

[highfigh]

How come? What would happen if I disconnect the ground?

Also, I had a chance to try this mat:
View attachment 29580
The cork/rubber one. That's such sh** I couldn't believe. Not only did it not work to stop the cones jumping, but it built up such static that it came off the TT together with the record It was stuck on it like a sticker, although the package said it doesn't build static. Useless and worthless.

BTW, I bought a new record, also for testing. So this one is flat, clean, new, decently produced, but the cones dance the same. The only thing that reduced the effect was using the NAD2700THX. But I have a feeling if I manage to lower it without the subsonic it will only be better with one.

Even with the new record, the pulsating is always stronger at the beginning than the inner part, close to the end.

I'm thinking about opening the TT and give it proper cleaning and oiling, maybe it IS a bad bearing after all.

What is the tracking weight? If it's extremely light, the tonearm won't maintain proper contact and it can almost float in a neutral position.

Just to confirm, you turned the counterweight until the tonearm floated, rotated the dial until the zero was over the line, then rotated the counterweight so it moved toward the tonearm pivot and the indicator was at ~1.5-1.75 grams, right?

 

[lovinthehd]

This is one tough sentence to wrap ones mind around. If... not... or not... I'm sorry, I didn't understand.

You asked what would happen if the ground were disconnected.....you might get a bit of hum, like ground loop hum....

 

[killdozzer]

What is the tracking weight? If it's extremely light, the tonearm won't maintain proper contact and it can almost float in a neutral position.

Just to confirm, you turned the counterweight until the tonearm floated, rotated the dial until the zero was over the line, then rotated the counterweight so it moved toward the tonearm pivot and the indicator was at ~1.5-1.75 grams, right?

Thanks for caring, yes I did all the "zero-balance" and then went for the recommended 2g. I found that anti-skating at two was rather excessive; it’s 1.7-1.8 now.

I must stress that the TT sounds nice now, very nice. Playing the new record, it’s clean, defined enough, real joy. Among the best sounding old records is the Mike Oldfield “Crisis”. That one has some mass to the low end. It really fills the room.

It’s just that turning the volume up while the needle is running thru empty grooves makes the cones really dance. I’m trying to find a place where I could upload a short clip and show you. Sometimes I even notice that frequencies align (sorry for this layman’s babbling) and the cone start speeding up and then it becomes audible (like a chest “om” sound”). That’s when I quickly turn it down. Come to think of it, this might also steer away from the bearing theory.

I'm not worried for the way it sounds, more for the health of the equipment and safety of the speakers.

 

[killdozzer]

Today I used a recommended overhang protractor and checked the cartridge position, everything was spot on.

 

[lovinthehd]

Today I used a recommended overhang protractor and checked the cartridge position, everything was spot on.

Curious, did you get the stylus scale to check tracking weight? I've used one with mine but following proper arm/counterweight setup I find the set weights fairly accurate.

 

[killdozzer]

Curious, did you get the stylus scale to check tracking weight? I've used one with mine but following proper arm/counterweight setup I find the set weights fairly accurate.

No, I don't own a scale. I set it up with TT's weight dial.

 

[killdozzer]

I finally found out what causes the cones of my speakers to pulsate and probably deteriorates my LP sound. Well, I'm half way there, at least. It's the platter. It sort of skips over something. It's cyclical... meaning it happens in the same place on the platter. Every full circle the stylus trembles in an up and down motion, almost as skipping over a small obstacle.

When I was testing, the TT was beneath the speakers on a separate stand that was very still when palm pressed against it. This position improves the sound (also, I removed the cover, it really acts like a resonating shell over the stylus) but the pulsating/skipping of the tone arm is still there. I'm guessing if I manage to sort this problem, I'll be happy with it.

Since this is happening on all of my records I'm thinking it must be related to the platter and not records. Although I'm still not sure in what part of the chain this occurs. I mentioned earlier I've noticed the suspension is not in its best days and the chassis with the tone arm and the platter sits hard on the bottom part of the chassis.

In the VE threads one member said when his suspension stretched in this way the platter started to touch something while rotating. I hope it's this as I could fix it easier. It could also be bearings, then I would have to do a lot of dismantling to first clean, then lubricate and then see if it was just dirt or if it's some mechanical damage.

read this: A very funny thing that happened; my brother got the same TT (the exact same model, same year) But the previous owner probably knew very little about TT's as he never removed the transportation screws. His suspension is... well almost mint, never been used. I removed the screws when I set it up and there's no pulsating whatsoever. Smooth as ice. There was a discount on an Ortofon OM5E which can be used on a Concorde ProS cartridge left from my father. We played Chris Rea; Road To Hell, it sounded beautiful. Rich and far more articulate than my TT.

 

[TLS Guy]

I finally found out what causes the cones of my speakers to pulsate and probably deteriorates my LP sound. Well, I'm half way there, at least. It's the platter. It sort of skips over something. It's cyclical... meaning it happens in the same place on the platter. Every full circle the stylus trembles in an up and down motion, almost as skipping over a small obstacle.

When I was testing, the TT was beneath the speakers on a separate stand that was very still when palm pressed against it. This position improves the sound (also, I removed the cover, it really acts like a resonating shell over the stylus) but the pulsating/skipping of the tone arm is still there. I'm guessing if I manage to sort this problem, I'll be happy with it.

Since this is happening on all of my records I'm thinking it must be related to the platter and not records. Although I'm still not sure in what part of the chain this occurs. I mentioned earlier I've noticed the suspension is not in its best days and the chassis with the tone arm and the platter sits hard on the bottom part of the chassis.

In the VE threads one member said when his suspension stretched in this way the platter started to touch something while rotating. I hope it's this as I could fix it easier. It could also be bearings, then I would have to do a lot of dismantling to first clean, then lubricate and then see if it was just dirt or if it's some mechanical damage.

read this: A very funny thing that happened; my brother got the same TT (the exact same model, same year) But the previous owner probably knew very little about TT's as he never removed the transportation screws. His suspension is... well almost mint, never been used. I removed the screws when I set it up and there's no pulsating whatsoever. Smooth as ice. There was a discount on an Ortofon OM5E which can be used on a Concorde ProS cartridge left from my father. We played Chris Rea; Road To Hell, it sounded beautiful. Rich and far more articulate than my TT.

That is very bad news. If you are lucky it is mechanical, but much more likely a problem with the motor or even more likely the electronic control.

These turntables are very complex in their drive and servo control. Damage could be in the rotor (turntable) or stator coils. A bad stator coild do this. It could also be in the control circuit. This is quite likely with a drop out in detection of rotation at the same point.

It could also be a mechanical problem with the bearing.

These systems take extensive test gear to sort out. Direct drive capstans in tape recorders are prone to these types of problems and are an absolute headache to sort out. You need a good O-scope and frequency counter as part of the basics.

One last point, if you can not feel a glitch when manually turning the platter then this is almost certainly a problem with the electronic control.

This will give you an idea of what is involved here.

 

[killdozzer]

That is very bad news. If you are lucky it is mechanical, but much more likely a problem with the motor or even more likely the electronic control.

Yes, I know. If it's the motor or the electronis, I'm giving up on it entirely.

But!!! And it's a big but. I still have my hopes high since the guy I mentioned in the VE sorted his TT out with no troubles.

The reason I have my hopes high is because I can't hear any wow or flutter. Changes in speed I would expect to hear. And, honestly, I wouldn't expect the needle to jump slightly upwards from a glitch in speed control. For example, when DJ's scratch the tone arm doesn't usually jump up. I know, I'm holding onto straws, but I have to, otherwise I'd just throw it away.

One last point, if you can not feel a glitch when manually turning the platter then this is almost certainly a problem with the electronic control.

So, I should gently put a tip of my finger on the platter and rotate it manually to see if I can feel the instance where it scratches against something?

 

[TLS Guy]

Yes, I know. If it's the motor or the electronis, I'm giving up on it entirely.

But!!! And it's a big but. I still have my hopes high since the guy I mentioned in the VE sorted his TT out with no troubles.

The reason I have my hopes high is because I can't hear any wow or flutter. Changes in speed I would expect to hear. And, honestly, I wouldn't expect the needle to jump slightly upwards from a glitch in speed control. For example, when DJ's scratch the tone arm doesn't usually jump up. I know, I'm holding onto straws, but I have to, otherwise I'd just throw it away.


So, I should gently put a tip of my finger on the platter and rotate it manually to see if I can feel the instance where it scratches against something?

Yes.

An electronic glitch can be as hard or harder than a mechanical one. If it misses a sensor bar it will glitch hard. If you can find another platter at reasonable cost that is worth a shot. If it is not mechanical and not on the turntable end, but the stator of field effect sensors or circuits, I think you will be out of luck unless you find a really knowledgeable individual with the equipment to trouble shoot it.

 

[KEW]

Yes.

An electronic glitch can be as hard or harder than a mechanical one. If it misses a sensor bar it will glitch hard. If you can find another platter at reasonable cost that is worth a shot. If it is not mechanical and not on the turntable end, but the stator of field effect sensors or circuits, I think you will be out of luck unless you find a really knowledgeable individual with the equipment to trouble shoot it.

Even though I am not currently using a TT, I enjoy reading your posts on this.

However, I was wondering if you could respond to one of Killdozzer's premises! His thought that any fluctuation in speed would be heard seems pretty sound to me. I know that the platter is an effective flywheel to minimize small and quick changes in speed, but it seems reasonable that if a glitch in the speed control/feedback system was great enough to cause the stylus to "tremble" (to use KD's description), it seems like it would be audible!

Nonetheless, it certainly makes sense to do the troubleshooting measures you mention in order to better determine the source of the glitch!

@killdozzer
I have not read the thread, but assuming belt drive, and since the glitch is synchronized with one place in the rotation of the platter, associates the issue with the platter (or it's bearing system). I would guess that the issue might be with the 1) dent or trash stuck to the bearing race, 2) the belt could be climbing a lip then falling back off, or one of the indicators on the platter (usually underneath) which is used to detect speed for the feedback control system is compromised.

...or the issues TLSGuy is suggesting, which are beyond my kin!

 

[killdozzer]

Yes.

An electronic glitch can be as hard or harder than a mechanical one. If it misses a sensor bar it will glitch hard.

I hear you, man! It's just the upwardly motion that I think requiers a push from bellow. I still have to check, of course.

If you can find another platter at reasonable cost that is worth a shot. If it is not mechanical and not on the turntable end, but the stator of field effect sensors or circuits, I think you will be out of luck unless you find a really knowledgeable individual with the equipment to trouble shoot it.

I'll wait with the platter. It depends what it's hitting if anything. It could easily happen that the new platter makes the same problem if it's caused by the platter scrubbing against the chassis. Two different members had this problem over at VE. I have to give it a shot since this would be a more desirable scenario for me.

I want to test if there's any contact between the platter and the chassis before I buy a replacing platter. The new platter could easily scratch at the same place.

I don't think I can find anyone that knowledgeable close to me.

Thank you! I'll let you all know.

 

[killdozzer]

Even though I am not currently using a TT, I enjoy reading your posts on this.

However, I was wondering if you could respond to one of Killdozzer's premises! His thought that any fluctuation in speed would be heard seems pretty sound to me. I know that the platter is an effective flywheel to minimize small and quick changes in speed, but it seems reasonable that if a glitch in the speed control/feedback system was great enough to cause the stylus to "tremble" (to use KD's description), it seems like it would be audible!

Nonetheless, it certainly makes sense to do the troubleshooting measures you mention in order to better determine the source of the glitch!

@killdozzer
I have not read the thread, but assuming belt drive, and since the glitch is synchronized with one place in the rotation of the platter, associates the issue with the platter (or it's bearing system). I would guess that the issue might be with the 1) dent or trash stuck to the bearing race, 2) the belt could be climbing a lip then falling back off, or one of the indicators on the platter (usually underneath) which is used to detect speed for the feedback control system is compromised.

...or the issues TLSGuy is suggesting, which are beyond my kin!

Thank you for contributing. It's direct drive. Your first premise is still something to look at though, but it requires disassembly so it comes after I rule out the suspension.

I've devised a test for suspension. This will be an easy test. I'll insert rubber rings in the suspension. In the place where it uses rubber anyway. This way I will prolong the excursion and hopefully separate the upper chassis part from the lower as it was intended when it was made. If this stops the problem, I'm in the clear. Fingers crossed.

 

[killdozzer]

The part of the chassis that has both tone arm and the platter mounted on it, rests on the rubber „bell“ marked red. The rubber bell goes over the spring, marked yellow, that way it rests on springs, but not directly on metal. The other part of the chassis rests on the foot, marked blue.

There are leads for the part of the chassis that is on the spring. It can travel only so much. It can't, obviously be separated merely by lifting the upper chassis. As springs give in to time and gravity, it reaches its bottom end and sits hard with no suspension left.

Remember, the part that supposedly lowered over time is the one that bares both the tone arm and the platter. As it lowers, so does the platter, coming closer and closer to the other part of the chassis. Perhaps the platter started touching something due to this lowering.

I intend to put a rubber ring between the spring and the rubber “bell” covering it. Because, if I put the ring between the chassis and the rubber bell, it would make the rubber bell stretch further and it might tear it since it’s old.