Need suggestions on how to turn my room into an Atmos-enabled home theater

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shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Well there’s definitely a case to be made there. Not the first time I’ve read about exactly what you wrote, and personally have a love hate thing with Audyssey. The point I should have expressed, is that The main value I find in Audyssey is SubEQ HT, but I didn’t really want to bog down my already ridiculing long post lol. Also, for a noob, I think Audyssey has value in that it takes a lot of the work and intimidation out of setup. Once a new guy gets accustomed to the lingo, and starts to experiment on his own, then he can make choices about certain things. We’ve been doing this a long time and have seen how things have changed and gotten more complicated. Can you imagine NOT having your particular knowledge base, and dropping in the deep end? There’s a lot of stuff to ingest, and when you have crap on the box like “12 zillion watt home theater” with little tiny cubes, and soundbars that deliver “lifelike 3d bigger than life super mega awesome” theater experiences that fits in the palm of your hand well... It’s a bitch. Lol
I agree that home theater is getting to complicated for layman and can be overwhelming. This is one of my objections to Dolby Atmos; if so many people have such trouble setting up a barebones 5.1 system, how are they going to handle the kind of requirements Atmos imposes? I think the way forward is simplicity, not complexity. A good pair of speakers with sensible placement doesn't really need any EQ, and the addition of a dozen surround channels doesn't make it enormously better. I have heard good two channel systems and good 11 channel systems, and all of the extra speakers in the surround system didn't add up to a gigantic improvement over the two channel system. I would say it was a bit more enveloping. But just getting the basics right is so much more important to getting a good sound than all of these advanced high tech features.
 
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Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
How much importance should be placed on the particular AVR? Ones I’ve looked most at this far have been (paraphrasing) the Onkup 676 and R820, Denon 3400 and 4400, Yamaha a870, ain’t d1080. I assume the Denon 4400 should be the strongest consideration of this bunch? Any others?
Sorry I haven't been able to reply much today I've been crazy busy at work 16hr shift today and tommorow I'll hop back in when I get home these guys are giving you some great advice tho hell I'm soaking it up too! Also I got the Denon 4400 it has all the features you need and it's selling for a great price right now
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
Sorry I haven't been able to reply much today I've been crazy busy at work 16hr shift today and tommorow I'll hop back in when I get home these guys are giving you some great advice tho hell I'm soaking it up too! Also I got the Denon 4400 it has all the features you need and it's selling for a great price right now
FYI, the cost of all this free advice is, qty-1 Denon x4400h.
Thanks you


 
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Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
What William suggested was changing your layout to a system like this which shares a similar spacial geometry to what you have:


While that would give you the best sound, I am not a big fan of that approach. I think its ridiculous to block a window view with AV equipment, and I am even a pretty big enthusiast of speakers and great sound. I think you can get some pretty good sound with some more modest modifications to your present layout.

First of all, for your present system, I would pull the couch up some, maybe two to three feet up away from the back wall. At the moment you are sitting in acoustically compromised position. You are getting strong acoustic reflections from the back wall since your ears are so close to it. Getting away from the wall should help. Also, if this can be tolerated, remove the coffee table from inbetween the sofa and sound system. perhaps move it to and endtable position or something, but it is a hard first reflection between you and the speakers that will end up causing problems with the frequency response at the listening position.

One more thing you might look into after that to further improve your acoustic situation is placing some kind of acoustic treatment on the backwalls behind your listening position, perhaps some kind of diffuser. Diffusers can be expensive so I would look into DIY diffusers.

One you get your sofa away from the backwall, surround speakers make a lot more sense. I am not sure I would go for 7.1 at that point, as you do not want to be too close to any of the surround speakers. I would go for 5.1. But maybe 5.1.2 is worth a try of you can place speakers on the opposite side slanted wall if they can be made to aim right at your listening position. It almost looks like that is possible. What would be good about that is that you could use an in-wall speaker for the Atmos height channel as opposed to an in-ceiling; in-walls speakers are an inherently less compromised design than in-ceiling speakers.

For speaker brands, there is a lot of good choices. RBH, Ascend Acoustics, Outlaw Audio, Hsu Research, Paradigm, SVS, JBL, Revel, RSL, Philharmonic, among others. As I mentioned before, I think bookshelf speakers would make more sense in that situation than towers, although if you cranking the volume really loud, tower speakers might make more sense, although there are bookshelf speakers and LCRs that can still handle wide dynamics, like the Hsu CCB-8, Ascend CMT-340se, RBH R-515/ R-515E, etc.

For subwoofers, I would look at what can be had from Hsu Research, Outlaw Audio, SVS, and Monoprice Monolith. For AVRs, I would look at offerings from Denon, Marantz, and Yamaha that fit your budget and criteria.
Shady is spot on.there is more then one way to set up this room. He gave you a great second way to do it I gotta confess that picture Shady sent you is Sweeeeet! What a sexy setup I have to confess that's the way Id do it blocked window or not but I'm vain like that! Lol:p
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
I agree that home theater is getting to complicated for layman and can be overwhelming. This is one of my objections to Dolby Atmos; if so many people have such trouble setting up a barebones 5.1 system, how are they going to handle the kind of requirements Atmos imposes? I think the way forward is simplicity, not complexity. A good pair of speakers with sensible placement doesn't really need any EQ, and the addition of a dozen surround channels doesn't make it enormously better. I have heard good two channel systems and good 11 channel systems, and all of the extra speakers in the surround system didn't add up to a gigantic improvement over the two channel system. I would say it was a bit more enveloping. But just getting the basics right is so much more important to getting a good sound than all of these advanced high tech features.
Agreed on many points. The upside is that if someone stops to take just a little time(many don’t obviously) such as our OP, there is a wealth of information available. In 1980-somethin when I first hooked our vhs/console TV to an amp and speakers, I had very little idea wtf I was doin(I was about 8). I just knew those connections could be used, so I figured out how. As far as Atmos goes, it can be super complicated, but I don’t think it’s unnecessarily so. Speaking only from my own opinion, it’s absolutely worth the effort. BUT, I also agree with you(as I do quite often) about getting the foundation right. It’s like a good paint job on your car, or building a house. Certain things have to be addressed before the rest will follow suit. I love that people are interested in Dolby Atmos, and if I can find a practical way to help I will. That’s not to say I always can. Every situation is different and I we as people try to think of things based on our own experiences. I know I’m guilty, and I say it that way because “sometimes” I forget about the guy on the other end. It’s easy for me to say blah blah blah what I would do, and how I’d spend X amount on what, but woopy ding dong. At the end of the day it’s his system, so like raising kids, I can present the information, but they have to ultimately choose. Oops, guess I’m rambling! Sorry
 
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Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
Roger that, my address is.......
Actually, I think we do like you.
Survey says?????
Cervesas!!!
Your on amigo! I've already told all you fellas your ever in San Antonio Texas to PM me well hit the town and some brewskis and jam out on the system!
 
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Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
Shady is spot on.there is more then one way to set up this room. He gave you a great second way to do it I gotta confess that picture Shady sent you is Sweeeeet! What a sexy setup I have to confess that's the way Id do it blocked window or not but I'm vain like that! Lol:p
Just remember my friend we will present you options and information but ultimately you'll need to take all that and set up the room what's best for you and your family! Basically well give you knowledge you decide how your gonna apply it.
 
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Steelers252006

Audioholic
Wi
Okay I'm gonna send you some pics of my room now. Like yours it's a challenging room I don't get a room for home theater so I have to set up in the living room. I want you to check those pics out and then ask me 3 questions or I'll just answer them for you. What do I feel I've done right with the setup what are it's strengths?
What do I feel like needs to be improved what are the weaknesses in the set up.
And what compromises am I having to make and why. Just a quick explanation of those 3 points I think will help get a better idea of how you'll want to go about your room. Basically learn from my growing pains bro!
Quick rundown on equipment
3 SVS prime tower speakers for the front left center and right.
4 Elan Theaterpoint THP650LS as my surrounds.
Just bought 4 RSL C34E's to do my atmos speakers finally ready to go up to Atmos finally ready.
And bought a new av reciever the Denon 4000 for a killer killer deal at my store I go to Bjorn's
For my subs I went up the chain but have arrived to where I'm happy 2 SVS PB 4000's
Your enthusiasm is just killer, man!! I’d love to hear your setup somehow. Looks insane!!
 
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Steelers252006

Audioholic
Hey man, don’t feel like your butchering it. It’s probably ME! Some of us(probably mostly me) forget that the terminology we use, is turned into shorthand after many years of communicating about it. Sorry for not thinking about that a little more. You’re doing fine, and if you need to ask again, go for it. That’s how we learn. I guess I feel like I’d rather assume you know certain thing and find out you don’t than talk down to you like some mr know it all.
So the crossover, or XO, is the point at which the avr transitions from sending content from the speaker to the subwoofer. The “woofer” in almost all speakers is passive, and powered by the avr, which you’ve picked up on. The subwoofer is powered by itself but content is still sent from the avr, which due to its design is only bass and midbass.
Think of the frequency range being divided into two parts. High and low. Speakers are responsible for the high, and subs are responsible for the low.
Imaging a piano being played through your system starting at the very top twinkly keys and working your way down to the left. When you get to the last 1/3(example) that’s where the avr would start sending content to the sub. This XO is not a brick wall, but slopes down above and below that point.
Maybe this will help
(disregard the LFE section in the pic, just for now)
You’re basically right on the pre amp. Instead of connecting your speakers directly to the avr, you’d connect them to the amp with speaker cable, which in turn is connected to the avr by rca. The avr sends the signal to the amp, but volume is still controlled by the avr. This is because the way volume works is not how most people think. The volume knob is actually used to attenuate, or choke power. Like a dam in a river. The avr is loaded with power(water in the river) but the gates(volume knob) are used to let more out, until finally when the gates are wide open it’s the same as volume being all the way turned up. Please disregard that last bit if I made things more confusing. I’m still on my first coffee! Lol

Other important avr features, to me at least would be Audyssey room correction. This is basically an equalizer that’s semi-automatic. You place the included mic where your ears go and it plays tones and measures(internally) how those tones interact with the room. Then it adjusts the delays, due to different speaker distances and equalizes the signal for a flat response. Flat response means if you run a sweep tone from 20hz up to 20khz the sound would stay even, and not have any frequency ranges that are louder, or quieter than others. Thats basically to maintain a balanced sound. I assume that’s the earc you asked about. The RC in that would probably stand for “room correction”.
I have tried some “game mode” lag compensations and haven’t found any of them useful personally. Wouldn’t worry about that one. I wouldn’t be too concerned about power ratings as most competent AVR’s should have enough. As long as you don’t have super power hungry speakers, or powering a block party.
Ok. That’s all’s I gots for now. I hope I’m not making things more confusing. Just trying to help. Sometimes I actually can!
Btw, if you’re preference is really to keep the layout how it is. Then I would also move the couch ahead a couple feet, and then put surround speakers on stands in their proper locations. Plenty of available, IW/IC(in wall, in ceiling) speakers to do Atmos with. Shady listed the usual suspects for speakers, and they all have something good to choose.
Incredibly helpful!! Will reread tomorrow with fresh eyes, but I really appreciate the thorough explanation you give.
 
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Steelers252006

Audioholic
Gi
I agree that home theater is getting to complicated for layman and can be overwhelming. This is one of my objections to Dolby Atmos; if so many people have such trouble setting up a barebones 5.1 system, how are they going to handle the kind of requirements Atmos imposes? I think the way forward is simplicity, not complexity. A good pair of speakers with sensible placement doesn't really need any EQ, and the addition of a dozen surround channels doesn't make it enormously better. I have heard good two channel systems and good 11 channel systems, and all of the extra speakers in the surround system didn't add up to a gigantic improvement over the two channel system. I would say it was a bit more enveloping. But just getting the basics right is so much more important to getting a good sound than all of these advanced high tech features.[/QUOTE

Just got my knowledge, give me examples of good two channel systems you’ve come across. Is love to hear more about it.
 
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Steelers252006

Audioholic
Wi


Your enthusiasm is just killer, man!! I’d love to hear your setup somehow. Looks insane!!
Yeah, I’ll double comment!! Was showing a buddy earlier those pics. I may not understand the thinking behind it, but there is no doubt in my mind there was a lot put into it from the placement of the speakers to the wires used to power them to the exact equipment purchased. I commend you, I bet it took you many hours to put that together and then a lot of hard work on top of it to pull it off. Impressive would be an understatement. I do hope I get the hang of this stuff as it will lead to a better purchase, more informative setup, and ultimately a great sound I’ll be happy with. I admit I’m overwhelmed at the moment and don’t want to waste my money on the wrong strategy.
 
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Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
Wi


Your enthusiasm is just killer, man!! I’d love to hear your setup somehow. Looks insane!!
You ever roll through San Antonio Texas PM me your more then welcome to stop by anytime jam out bbq hit some beers and just have a great time enjoying this awesome hobby were into!
 
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Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
Yeah, I’ll double comment!! Was showing a buddy earlier those pics. I may not understand the thinking behind it, but there is no doubt in my mind there was a lot put into it from the placement of the speakers to the wires used to power them to the exact equipment purchased. I commend you, I bet it took you many hours to put that together and then a lot of hard work on top of it to pull it off. Impressive would be an understatement. I do hope I get the hang of this stuff as it will lead to a better purchase, more informative setup, and ultimately a great sound I’ll be happy with. I admit I’m overwhelmed at the moment and don’t want to waste my money on the wrong strategy.
That's why tommorow I'm going to get back on that PM I sent you and go over those 3 questions about my set up and what I learned so far. Also what I need to do improve it. I think going over the journey in building it so far and why I made choices I did. Both good bad and ugly Lol. Will help you get better ideas on how to go with yours and help you learn faster and make better choices then I did starting off. I'd do it now but work has got me crushed bro got one more day and I can jump back in with you guys!
 
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Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
That's why tommorow I'm going to get back on that PM I sent you and go over those 3 questions about my set up and what I learned so far. Also what I need to do improve it. I think going over the journey in building it so far and why I made choices I did. Both good bad and ugly Lol. Will help you get better ideas on how to go with yours and help you learn faster and make better choices then I did starting off. I'd do it now but work has got me crushed bro got one more day and I can jump back in with you guys!
Basically I want you to understand the thinking behind it on why I did what I did understanding the thinking behind it will help you hopefully with the thinking you'll be putting into your system
 
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snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
Subwoofers are what make the theater setups fun. A sub you might want to look at is the HSU VTF2. I have a pair of these in one of my systems. There is an excellent review of the VTF2 on this site by Shadyj.
 
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shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Just got my knowledge, give me examples of good two channel systems you’ve come across. Is love to hear more about it.
I have heard too many good two channel systems to count. The systems range from relatively cheap to extremely expensive, but good sound is good sound. But to just to throw an example out there, one two channel speaker system I dealt with recently that quite impressed me was a pair of Dayton MK442 speakers with both speakers positioned in an upright orientation so that they were standing vertically. What was impressive about them is how good they sounded- for $50 each! On the other end of that, I have heard two channel systems that sounded great but costed hundreds of thousands of dollars. What makes a big difference is how carefully the system is setup. A very expensive setup could have poor results if not setup correctly, but a cheap system can sound very good if care is put into the setup and positioning. If you want to get the most out of your speaker system, take some time to look into the best placement and positioning.

Here are some tips:
  • Try to place the speakers at an elevation where the tweeters are level with your ears at the listening position. So get the tweeters to the same height that your ears will be at when you will be watching and enjoying your system.
  • Give the speakers a stand-off distance from nearby walls and surfaces if possible. In other words, try not to place the speakers right next to a wall or in some kind of cramped area. The more space you can give them, the better it will be acoustically. You don't have to have them out in the middle of the room though, but try to give them at least two to three feet from the backwall.
  • Experiment with toe-in. The direct sound of the speaker changes its tonality depending on what angle you are listening to the speaker. If you like treble and heightened detail, have the speakers aimed right at your listening position. If you prefer a warmer sound, or you find a direct axis angle fatiguing, angle the speakers inward or outward with respect to the listening position; that will shade the high frequencies a bit.
  • Try to place the left and right fronts so that it forms an equilateral triangle with your listening position. It's also OK to have the front left/rights a bit closer together than that for a two channel system, or a bit farther apart than that when there is a center speaker being used in a surround sound system. Here is a decent diagram that kind of shows this:
  • As I mentioned before, don't assume equalization programs like Audyssey automatically improve the sound. Good speakers don't really benefit from equalization, and it can end up hurting more than helping. There is no harm in trying it out to see the difference though.
  • Tower speakers can not match the bass performance of a decent subwoofer. If you are interested in powerful bass, subwoofers are a must.
  • For a smooth, consistent bass sound, consider a multiple subwoofer system. The wavelengths of low frequency sound are much larger than domestic rooms, and so the pressure waves overlap each other and cause cancellations and summations. The summations and cancellations manifest themselves in the sound as frequency ranges that are too loud and frequency ranges that are too quiet. The best way to combat this is to get multiple subwoofers and use asymmetrical placement of the subs around the room, thereby averaging out the peaks and nulls for a more consistent sound overall.
 
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Steelers252006

Audioholic
Man, that’s a tough room. If it were mine(discounting any other available spaces in the house), I would also cover the window, move the office stuff to where the drums are(I have a studio for mine so I’m lucky that way). Put the Towers and center against the “window wall”, set the couch sideways, put the surrounds on stands at 110deg next to the couch, and mount 4 height speakers appropriately positioned. I personally used RSL C34e’s (like @danzilla and @snakeeyes which would possibly work in the angled part of the ceiling with their 15 degree baffles or try these jbl pendants.
[URL]http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/installed-sound/control-60-series[/URL]

So, all that stuff is easy for me to say, but if I were window shopping for a home and saw that room in one. That’s how I would consider laying it out.
As for the tower vs bookshelf(BS) thing, do what you want. I’m an advocate for towers personally and while you probably won’t use the extra extension, imo towers(real ones not bs with built in stands lol) will deliver dynamics better than BS’s but in moderate to lower volumes bs speakers can work great. Towers are many times easier to drive, and have higher sensitivity so a mid level avr can drive many of them. If you want to go 7.x.4 you’ll need something with 11ch of processing like the 4300/4400(and an external amp), but can do 5.x.4 on its own. Not sure if the 3300/3400 can do 5.x.4.
Can you take a long shot from over by your drums? Curious about how the room actually looks at a distance.
Also, IMO. Soundbars are a horrible idea due to the fact that they cannot do the same things that a real system can. Some can be somewhat convincing, but they bounce sound off the side walls etc. dumb... IMO, at best they’re a suitable upgrade to the speakers.
Ok, sorry for the driveling...
Just looked up those ceiling speakers. They offer full packages, too, like this one...very interesting!!

https://rslspeakers.com/products/cg3-5-1-2-dolby-atmos-home-theater-speaker-system/
 
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