Need suggestions on how to turn my room into an Atmos-enabled home theater

D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
Wow, Tapatalk butchered my post I hope you can make sense of it so I don’t have to click all that in my phone again...lol
Never seen Tapatalk do it that bad before. Sorry if I sound like a moron. I’m kinda pi$$ed actually. Love me some technology...maybe I’ll edit in desktop version.
That's okay bro I sound like a moron all the time and I ain't got no Tapatalk causing it it's all natural :) P.S. I'm really glad you jumped on this thread this guy is really wanting to learn and I've learned some things to pass on but you have a lot of knowledge my friend I'm glad you jumped on.board
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
Be sure to keep a good percentage of your budget for the front 3 speakers and the subwoofer. Check out subs from HSU or SVS or Rythmik or Monolith. Also I believe you can find the Denon 4400 AVR on sale around $800. Good luck! :)
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
That's okay bro I sound like a moron all the time and I ain't got no Tapatalk causing it it's all natural :) P.S. I'm really glad you jumped on this thread this guy is really wanting to learn and I've learned some things to pass on but you have a lot of knowledge my friend I'm glad you jumped on.board
Lolol!!!
Hey man, I appreciate the kind words.
You good peeps homes. Definitely not a moron, and the enthusiasm is great. Ive seen you handing out good advice. Keep it up!
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
So where do I begin in your opinion? Which receiver should be on my radar initially? Then which bookshelf speakers? Finally sub?
Hey bro I'm baaaack Lol. I got off work been brainstorming and got some ideas. William just sent you some excellent posts you should check them out really good info. If you notice on reading those posts you'll see a common thread. We all would want to set the room up a ceartin way that's not a coincidence. You mentioned something earlier when you first posted about if we throw enough money into this we can make it sound great. Well yes and no. Higher quality gear is important but the room plays a huge part in the equation. First in how it affects the sound and second in the layout how you arrange things to get the best sound out of that room from your equipment. We want you to set the room up in the best way possible to get the most out of any system you put in there. You mentioned you had a 2 year old congratulations I can imagine many great times as they grow older spending time with Dad watching there favorite movies in a killer theater room. But you gotta get the room lay out right. All the money in the world can't defeat the laws of science and your room layout will work best just because physics and other laws of science that apply to sound just work that way best. Period.
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
Appreciate it, buddy.
Okay so now that room layout is out of the way let's talk budget.
How much money are you willing to spend on the reciever?
How much money are you willing to spend on the front towers and center channel speakers and I would recommend towers if you change the layout like William I prefer Towers for all the reasons he mentioned.
How much money on the surrounds
And how much money on the subs? Knowing your budget can help us give you suggestion on our favorite speakers. And gear at those price ranges for you to check out.
As Snakeyes mentioned starting off try to put your best money in the front 3 speakers left center right and in the subwoofers. They will be the best place to get the most sound starting off you can always move up the chain in surrounds later place your priorities on those first. Do me a favor send us that budget so we can start giving you recommendations
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
Appreciate it, buddy.
Okay I'm gonna send you some pics of my room now. Like yours it's a challenging room I don't get a room for home theater so I have to set up in the living room. I want you to check those pics out and then ask me 3 questions or I'll just answer them for you. What do I feel I've done right with the setup what are it's strengths?
What do I feel like needs to be improved what are the weaknesses in the set up.
And what compromises am I having to make and why. Just a quick explanation of those 3 points I think will help get a better idea of how you'll want to go about your room. Basically learn from my growing pains bro!
Quick rundown on equipment
3 SVS prime tower speakers for the front left center and right.
4 Elan Theaterpoint THP650LS as my surrounds.
Just bought 4 RSL C34E's to do my atmos speakers finally ready to go up to Atmos finally ready.
And bought a new av reciever the Denon 4000 for a killer killer deal at my store I go to Bjorn's
For my subs I went up the chain but have arrived to where I'm happy 2 SVS PB 4000's
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
I'll PM you those soon we don't take up too much space on the thread.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
What William suggested was changing your layout to a system like this which shares a similar spacial geometry to what you have:


While that would give you the best sound, I am not a big fan of that approach. I think its ridiculous to block a window view with AV equipment, and I am even a pretty big enthusiast of speakers and great sound. I think you can get some pretty good sound with some more modest modifications to your present layout.

First of all, for your present system, I would pull the couch up some, maybe two to three feet up away from the back wall. At the moment you are sitting in acoustically compromised position. You are getting strong acoustic reflections from the back wall since your ears are so close to it. Getting away from the wall should help. Also, if this can be tolerated, remove the coffee table from inbetween the sofa and sound system. perhaps move it to and endtable position or something, but it is a hard first reflection between you and the speakers that will end up causing problems with the frequency response at the listening position.

One more thing you might look into after that to further improve your acoustic situation is placing some kind of acoustic treatment on the backwalls behind your listening position, perhaps some kind of diffuser. Diffusers can be expensive so I would look into DIY diffusers.

One you get your sofa away from the backwall, surround speakers make a lot more sense. I am not sure I would go for 7.1 at that point, as you do not want to be too close to any of the surround speakers. I would go for 5.1. But maybe 5.1.2 is worth a try of you can place speakers on the opposite side slanted wall if they can be made to aim right at your listening position. It almost looks like that is possible. What would be good about that is that you could use an in-wall speaker for the Atmos height channel as opposed to an in-ceiling; in-walls speakers are an inherently less compromised design than in-ceiling speakers.

For speaker brands, there is a lot of good choices. RBH, Ascend Acoustics, Outlaw Audio, Hsu Research, Paradigm, SVS, JBL, Revel, RSL, Philharmonic, among others. As I mentioned before, I think bookshelf speakers would make more sense in that situation than towers, although if you cranking the volume really loud, tower speakers might make more sense, although there are bookshelf speakers and LCRs that can still handle wide dynamics, like the Hsu CCB-8, Ascend CMT-340se, RBH R-515/ R-515E, etc.

For subwoofers, I would look at what can be had from Hsu Research, Outlaw Audio, SVS, and Monoprice Monolith. For AVRs, I would look at offerings from Denon, Marantz, and Yamaha that fit your budget and criteria.
 
S

Steelers252006

Audioholic
Man, that’s a tough room. If it were mine(discounting any other available spaces in the house), I would also cover the window, move the office stuff to where the drums are(I have a studio for mine so I’m lucky that way). Put the Towers and center against the “window wall”, set the couch sideways, put the surrounds on stands at 110deg next to the couch, and mount 4 height speakers appropriately positioned. I personally used RSL C34e’s (like @danzilla and @snakeeyes which would possibly work in the angled part of the ceiling with their 15 degree baffles or try these jbl pendants.
[URL]http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/installed-sound/control-60-series[/URL]

So, all that stuff is easy for me to say, but if I were window shopping for a home and saw that room in one. That’s how I would consider laying it out.
As for the tower vs bookshelf(BS) thing, do what you want. I’m an advocate for towers personally and while you probably won’t use the extra extension, imo towers(real ones not bs with built in stands lol) will deliver dynamics better than BS’s but in moderate to lower volumes bs speakers can work great. Towers are many times easier to drive, and have higher sensitivity so a mid level avr can drive many of them. If you want to go 7.x.4 you’ll need something with 11ch of processing like the 4300/4400(and an external amp), but can do 5.x.4 on its own. Not sure if the 3300/3400 can do 5.x.4.
Can you take a long shot from over by your drums? Curious about how the room actually looks at a distance.
Also, IMO. Soundbars are a horrible idea due to the fact that they cannot do the same things that a real system can. Some can be somewhat convincing, but they bounce sound off the side walls etc. dumb... IMO, at best they’re a suitable upgrade to the speakers.
Ok, sorry for the driveling...
No, I appreciate the “driveling”, more info than I’ve been able to come up with on my own, that’s for sure. I’ll get you a pic from the corner facing out behind my drum set. I do have a few questions: What do you mean when you say you probably won’t use the “extra extension”? And I’ve read about people adding a second amp to their setups as you mentioned as well. How does that work exactly, meaning how is it hooked up and why exactly is it needed? Thanks!!
 
S

Steelers252006

Audioholic
What William suggested was changing your layout to a system like this which shares a similar spacial geometry to what you have:


While that would give you the best sound, I am not a big fan of that approach. I think its ridiculous to block a window view with AV equipment, and I am even a pretty big enthusiast of speakers and great sound. I think you can get some pretty good sound with some more modest modifications to your present layout.

First of all, for your present system, I would pull the couch up some, maybe two to three feet up away from the back wall. At the moment you are sitting in acoustically compromised position. You are getting strong acoustic reflections from the back wall since your ears are so close to it. Getting away from the wall should help. Also, if this can be tolerated, remove the coffee table from inbetween the sofa and sound system. perhaps move it to and endtable position or something, but it is a hard first reflection between you and the speakers that will end up causing problems with the frequency response at the listening position.

One more thing you might look into after that to further improve your acoustic situation is placing some kind of acoustic treatment on the backwalls behind your listening position, perhaps some kind of diffuser. Diffusers can be expensive so I would look into DIY diffusers.

One you get your sofa away from the backwall, surround speakers make a lot more sense. I am not sure I would go for 7.1 at that point, as you do not want to be too close to any of the surround speakers. I would go for 5.1. But maybe 5.1.2 is worth a try of you can place speakers on the opposite side slanted wall if they can be made to aim right at your listening position. It almost looks like that is possible. What would be good about that is that you could use an in-wall speaker for the Atmos height channel as opposed to an in-ceiling; in-walls speakers are an inherently less compromised design than in-ceiling speakers.

For speaker brands, there is a lot of good choices. RBH, Ascend Acoustics, Outlaw Audio, Hsu Research, Paradigm, SVS, JBL, Revel, RSL, Philharmonic, among others. As I mentioned before, I think bookshelf speakers would make more sense in that situation than towers, although if you cranking the volume really loud, tower speakers might make more sense, although there are bookshelf speakers and LCRs that can still handle wide dynamics, like the Hsu CCB-8, Ascend CMT-340se, RBH R-515/ R-515E, etc.

For subwoofers, I would look at what can be had from Hsu Research, Outlaw Audio, SVS, and Monoprice Monolith. For AVRs, I would look at offerings from Denon, Marantz, and Yamaha that fit your budget and criteria.
How much importance should be placed on the particular AVR? Ones I’ve looked most at this far have been (paraphrasing) the Onkup 676 and R820, Denon 3400 and 4400, Yamaha a870, ain’t d1080. I assume the Denon 4400 should be the strongest consideration of this bunch? Any others?
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
No, I appreciate the “driveling”, more info than I’ve been able to come up with on my own, that’s for sure. I’ll get you a pic from the corner facing out behind my drum set. I do have a few questions: What do you mean when you say you probably won’t use the “extra extension”? And I’ve read about people adding a second amp to their setups as you mentioned as well. How does that work exactly, meaning how is it hooked up and why exactly is it needed? Thanks!!
Extension refers to lower frequency response. Aka, bass! As shady mentioned, most of the time we cross over from the main speakers at around 80hz and let the subs handle that lower region. Generally there are not many speakers that can do justice to this range, and it also unloads that burden from the amps/avr, although I personally think that gets overstated sometimes considering the levels many people listen at. IME, even above that bass range the extra/larger drivers and (many times) extra sensitivity gives them an advantage. Like I said though, at lesser volumes that advantage is certainly lessened.
The external amps are sent the signal from the pre amp outputs, for example the L/R outputs by simple rca cables. Some prefer external amplification for a variety of reasons, but in the case of the 4400, it can process 11 channels but only has 9 amps. This means you need an outboard amp to drive 2 of the channels.
FWIW, the layout I suggested would MY first way of doing it but I don’t mind losing a window providing I have enough rooms in the house to do other things. You’ll have to decide for yourself about practicality lol. My second choice would be similar to shadys idea.
Yes I believe the 4400 is the best choice. Especially considering the price their at currently.
 
S

Steelers252006

Audioholic
Here's two more angles and both behind my drum set in the far corner by the entrance door. The door by the beer sign is a little closet.

When I originally bought my OLED (think I paid 2,500 for it) I told myself I wouldn't go higher than that total on sound. I can EASILY see how that can be eclipsed, however. In a perfect world, that's where I'd stay, and I'd keep the room as is without having to move things around as to maximize space. It's why the 3.1.2 first caught my attention. I'm open-minded to anything, though, and see from your messages there are all kinds of possibilities I like the idea of the speaker on the slanted ceiling for "height".
 

Attachments

S

Steelers252006

Audioholic
Extension refers to lower frequency response. Aka, bass! As shady mentioned, most of the time we cross over from the main speakers at around 80hz and let the subs handle that lower region. Generally there are not many speakers that can do justice to this range, and it also unloads that burden from the amps/avr, although I personally think that gets overstated sometimes considering the levels many people listen at. IME, even above that bass range the extra/larger drivers and (many times) extra sensitivity gives them an advantage. Like I said though, at lesser volumes that advantage is certainly lessened.
The external amps are sent the signal from the pre amp outputs, for example the L/R outputs by simple rca cables. Some prefer external amplification for a variety of reasons, but in the case of the 4400, it can process 11 channels but only has 9 amps. This means you need an outboard amp to drive 2 of the channels.
FWIW, the layout I suggested would MY first way of doing it but I don’t mind losing a window providing I have enough rooms in the house to do other things. You’ll have to decide for yourself about practicality lol. My second choice would be similar to shadys idea.
Yes I believe the 4400 is the best choice. Especially considering the price their at currently.
Okay, I'm going to sound like a real knucklhead newbie now, but I have to ask these questions to better understand:

When you say "cross over" from the main speakers at 80hz, what does that mean exactly? I know the subs have their own individual power source, so I assume that's what you mean by saying it takes a load off the AVR. So in layman's terms, since the subs in the tower speakers have to rely off the AVR and not their own power source, they won't have the the same low-end range, right?

Far as the pre amp outputs, explain that one more time, please? So the external amp hooks into the AVR through these dedicated pre-amp outputs that are made just for that, not the connection areas where the say front channel, back channel, center channel, height channel speakers would hook into? Entirely separate thing? And I also assume this is an important feature that any competent receiver should have? What are some other important features? I've read something about lag latency control when gaming, have read about where you can hook up multiple subs to certain ones, a pretty common feature but important I assume, the Earc (I have no idea what that really is) that is coming but not yet prevalent, et cetera.

I feel like I'm trying to learn a foreign language and butchering...ALL OF IT!!
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
How much importance should be placed on the particular AVR? Ones I’ve looked most at this far have been (paraphrasing) the Onkup 676 and R820, Denon 3400 and 4400, Yamaha a870, ain’t d1080. I assume the Denon 4400 should be the strongest consideration of this bunch? Any others?
I wouldn't place too much importance on the AVR, so long as they have the features you want. In that group I would go with the Denon or Yamaha. Marantz has some good ones too in your price range.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Okay, I'm going to sound like a real knucklhead newbie now, but I have to ask these questions to better understand:

When you say "cross over" from the main speakers at 80hz, what does that mean exactly? I know the subs have their own individual power source, so I assume that's what you mean by saying it takes a load off the AVR. So in layman's terms, since the subs in the tower speakers have to rely off the AVR and not their own power source, they won't have the the same low-end range, right?

Far as the pre amp outputs, explain that one more time, please? So the external amp hooks into the AVR through these dedicated pre-amp outputs that are made just for that, not the connection areas where the say front channel, back channel, center channel, height channel speakers would hook into? Entirely separate thing? And I also assume this is an important feature that any competent receiver should have? What are some other important features? I've read something about lag latency control when gaming, have read about where you can hook up multiple subs to certain ones, a pretty common feature but important I assume, the Earc (I have no idea what that really is) that is coming but not yet prevalent, et cetera.

I feel like I'm trying to learn a foreign language and butchering...ALL OF IT!!
The crossover is the frequency where the main speakers give playback duties to the subwoofer. It is normally 80 Hz. The speakers shouldn't be playing below the crossover and the sub shouldn't be playing above the crossover.

Your understanding of pre-amps is correct, they are there to hook up external amplification. Higher end AVRs will have them but not lower end AVRs. I don't know what Earc is.

For your purposes, most modern AVRs will have all the features you will end up using. I wouldn't worry about it too much in your price range.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
Okay, I'm going to sound like a real knucklhead newbie now, but I have to ask these questions to better understand:

When you say "cross over" from the main speakers at 80hz, what does that mean exactly? I know the subs have their own individual power source, so I assume that's what you mean by saying it takes a load off the AVR. So in layman's terms, since the subs in the tower speakers have to rely off the AVR and not their own power source, they won't have the the same low-end range, right?

Far as the pre amp outputs, explain that one more time, please? So the external amp hooks into the AVR through these dedicated pre-amp outputs that are made just for that, not the connection areas where the say front channel, back channel, center channel, height channel speakers would hook into? Entirely separate thing? And I also assume this is an important feature that any competent receiver should have? What are some other important features? I've read something about lag latency control when gaming, have read about where you can hook up multiple subs to certain ones, a pretty common feature but important I assume, the Earc (I have no idea what that really is) that is coming but not yet prevalent, et cetera.

I feel like I'm trying to learn a foreign language and butchering...ALL OF IT!!
Hey man, don’t feel like your butchering it. It’s probably ME! Some of us(probably mostly me) forget that the terminology we use, is turned into shorthand after many years of communicating about it. Sorry for not thinking about that a little more. You’re doing fine, and if you need to ask again, go for it. That’s how we learn. I guess I feel like I’d rather assume you know certain thing and find out you don’t than talk down to you like some mr know it all.
So the crossover, or XO, is the point at which the avr transitions from sending content from the speaker to the subwoofer. The “woofer” in almost all speakers is passive, and powered by the avr, which you’ve picked up on. The subwoofer is powered by itself but content is still sent from the avr, which due to its design is only bass and midbass.
Think of the frequency range being divided into two parts. High and low. Speakers are responsible for the high, and subs are responsible for the low.
Imaging a piano being played through your system starting at the very top twinkly keys and working your way down to the left. When you get to the last 1/3(example) that’s where the avr would start sending content to the sub. This XO is not a brick wall, but slopes down above and below that point.
Maybe this will help
(disregard the LFE section in the pic, just for now)
You’re basically right on the pre amp. Instead of connecting your speakers directly to the avr, you’d connect them to the amp with speaker cable, which in turn is connected to the avr by rca. The avr sends the signal to the amp, but volume is still controlled by the avr. This is because the way volume works is not how most people think. The volume knob is actually used to attenuate, or choke power. Like a dam in a river. The avr is loaded with power(water in the river) but the gates(volume knob) are used to let more out, until finally when the gates are wide open it’s the same as volume being all the way turned up. Please disregard that last bit if I made things more confusing. I’m still on my first coffee! Lol

Other important avr features, to me at least would be Audyssey room correction. This is basically an equalizer that’s semi-automatic. You place the included mic where your ears go and it plays tones and measures(internally) how those tones interact with the room. Then it adjusts the delays, due to different speaker distances and equalizes the signal for a flat response. Flat response means if you run a sweep tone from 20hz up to 20khz the sound would stay even, and not have any frequency ranges that are louder, or quieter than others. Thats basically to maintain a balanced sound. I assume that’s the earc you asked about. The RC in that would probably stand for “room correction”.
I have tried some “game mode” lag compensations and haven’t found any of them useful personally. Wouldn’t worry about that one. I wouldn’t be too concerned about power ratings as most competent AVR’s should have enough. As long as you don’t have super power hungry speakers, or powering a block party.
Ok. That’s all’s I gots for now. I hope I’m not making things more confusing. Just trying to help. Sometimes I actually can!
Btw, if you’re preference is really to keep the layout how it is. Then I would also move the couch ahead a couple feet, and then put surround speakers on stands in their proper locations. Plenty of available, IW/IC(in wall, in ceiling) speakers to do Atmos with. Shady listed the usual suspects for speakers, and they all have something good to choose.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
Here’s an example of a frequency response graph. The left side is low frequency, and the right is high(actually it only goes to 200hz as it was a subwoofer sweep)
So when Audyssey “sees” this it will “EQ” by taking down the peaks and lifting the valleys. (Yes I oversimplified that for anyone who knows about dealing with valleys lol). Therefore leaving a basically “flat” response.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Other important avr features, to me at least would be Audyssey room correction. This is basically an equalizer that’s semi-automatic. You place the included mic where your ears go and it plays tones and measures(internally) how those tones interact with the room. Then it adjusts the delays, due to different speaker distances and equalizes the signal for a flat response. Flat response means if you run a sweep tone from 20hz up to 20khz the sound would stay even, and not have any frequency ranges that are louder, or quieter than others. Thats basically to maintain a balanced sound. I assume that’s the earc you asked about. The RC in that would probably stand for “room correction”.
Personally I am growing more anti-EQ as I learn more about it, especially automated routines like Audyssey. For myself, I would definitely not have Audyssey on the list of 'must have' features. For the OP, go ahead and try whatever equalization software that comes with your AVR, but don't assume it has made the sound better. Switch back and forth between the EQ on and off and keep whichever sound you prefer. As far as making the sound more neutral, there isn't much these EQ system can do to improve upon well-engineered speakers in a well setup room, but they actually can do harm to such a system. Audyssey is a band-aid for bad speakers setup in an acoustically bad environment.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
Personally I am growing more anti-EQ as I learn more about it, especially automated routines like Audyssey. For myself, I would definitely not have Audyssey on the list of 'must have' features. For the OP, go ahead and try whatever equalization software that comes with your AVR, but don't assume it has made the sound better. Switch back and forth between the EQ on and off and keep whichever sound you prefer. As far as making the sound more neutral, there isn't much these EQ system can do to improve upon well-engineered speakers in a well setup room, but they actually can do harm to such a system. Audyssey is a band-aid for bad speakers setup in an acoustically bad environment.
Well there’s definitely a case to be made there. Not the first time I’ve read about exactly what you wrote, and personally have a love hate thing with Audyssey. The point I should have expressed, is that The main value I find in Audyssey is SubEQ HT, but I didn’t really want to bog down my already ridiculing long post lol. Also, for a noob, I think Audyssey has value in that it takes a lot of the work and intimidation out of setup. Once a new guy gets accustomed to the lingo, and starts to experiment on his own, then he can make choices about certain things. We’ve been doing this a long time and have seen how things have changed and gotten more complicated. Can you imagine NOT having your particular knowledge base, and dropping in the deep end? There’s a lot of stuff to ingest, and when you have crap on the box like “12 zillion watt home theater” with little tiny cubes, and soundbars that deliver “lifelike 3d bigger than life super mega awesome” theater experiences that fits in the palm of your hand well... It’s a bitch. Lol
 
newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top