Revel and Dynaudio thoughts

[Beave]

As you have found out, the Dynaudios will be a massive upgrade on your current speakers. I would up the budget.

In what ways are the Dynaudios a 'massive upgrade' over the Sierra towers? Curious minds want to know.

 

[ichigo]

In what ways are the Dynaudios a 'massive upgrade' over the Sierra towers? Curious minds want to know.

According to Harman Audio research, 30% of a listener preferences of loudspeakers is due to bass performance. The Ascend towers are extremely small towers, and also quite bass constrained.

The Ascends use a Seas Excel midrange and a RAAL 70-20 tweeter. You'd have to go to the Confidence/Ultima 2/Performa 3Be lines for comparable tweeter/mid drivers from Revel or Dynaudio. The issue with the Ascends is they don't dig anywhere comparable in the bass to the Revel or Dynaudio floorstanders. I suspect with a sub the Ascends would win against the Revel/Dynaudio floorstanders used in the comparison, which are really closer to entry level models of those brands.

 

[Beave]

When comparing the Ascend Sierra towers and the Dynaudio X44 towers, the Sierras have higher sensitivity, but the Dyns have deeper bass extension (that old tradeoff that one can never escape).

So, yes, I would expect the Dyns to have deeper bass extension. But comparing speakers by listening in different rooms is not a fair comparison, especially in the bass, where room modes can dominate actual speaker output. Not to mention the issues with auditory memory being far too short for a real comparison when one speaker pair is at home and the other is at a dealer.

Hence my question, what about the Dyns would be so superior to the Ascends?


PS. The Sierra tower midrange driver isn't a Seas Excel. It's made by Tang Band. Seas makes the dome tweeter option for the Sierra towers.

 

[highfigh]

There have been articles on some of their products in several reviews. Here is one: https://www.stereophile.com/content/yg-acoustics-sonja-13-loudspeaker

What made me laugh in this Stereophile article is when they relate to "Zero Ohm" inductors which is not possible, since inductor reactance is stated in ohms as well as it's resistance.

Yeah, I saw that- I wasn't impressed and I don't like when someone tries to make it seem that they're doing something nobody else can, nobody else thought of or that they use a material that's proprietary.

 

[TLS Guy]

In what ways are the Dynaudios a 'massive upgrade' over the Sierra towers? Curious minds want to know.

FR alone as a guide to whether a speaker is any good by no means tells the whole story. If the FR is bad it will not be a good speaker. However if the FR is good it does not mean it will be a good speaker.

The quality of the drivers matters. Tang Band drivers are close to junk category. Making a really good motor system is a complex task. Most fall well short of the mark. I select only the finest drivers. There is a lot that goes into these drivers that I have posted about often. Bass extension is not the whole story, though important. The bigger issue is linear power handling in the bass/tenor range above sub range. That is that crucial band where the vast majority of speakers fall way short of the mark. That is the major power band range, not the sub. There are actually few manufacturers who build drivers that can cut it in this range.

Dynaudio were founded on the premise of building drivers with superb motor systems. They do not disappoint.

The fact is that Ascend speakers are toys against a Dynaudio speaker.

As I keep repeating adding a sub to an anemic sounding speaker does not make for good sound or an adequate system. A speaker system must be highly listenable without the addition of a sub. Of all the speakers the sub IS THE MOST DISPENSABLE. Most of what is posted here about the need for subs is just arrant nonsense.

Lastly I have a bias to Dynaudios as the two manufacturers that voice speakers closest to mine are Dynaudio and Spendor. I highly recommend both.

 

[Beave]

Can you be more specific about what deficiencies you find with the Tang Band woofers and Tang Band midrange that are used in the Ascend towers? Feel free to present measurements, data sheet data, whatever floats your boat. I see lots of strong descriptors but no data. If you've posted it in the past, can you or somebody else point me to it with a link?

 

[Beave]

FR alone as a guide to whether a speaker is any good by no means tells the whole story. If the FR is bad it will not be a good speaker. However if the FR is good it does not mean it will be a good speaker.

What other attributes besides on and off-axis frequency response do you find to be necessary for a speaker to be 'good?'

I can certainly see how power handling/dynamics matters, but it can be really tricky to quantify with simple numbers, as it is frequency and duration dependent.

But what other parameters matter?

 

[ichigo]

It's a tangband driver? Interesting. I've seen people in the Ascend forum say it was a Seas Excel M15CH, so that's what I assumed it was.

 

[Beave]

It's a tangband driver? Interesting. I've seen people in the Ascend forum say it was a Seas Excel M15CH, so that's what I assumed it was.

It's very similar to this one:
https://www.parts-express.com/tang-band-w5-1611saf-5-full-range-speaker--264-918

Seas makes the midwoofer in the Sierra 2 and the tweeter in the Sierra 1 and nrt tower. Tang Band makes the woofers for the Sierra 1 and Sierra tower, and the midrange for the Sierra tower.

 

[TLS Guy]

What other attributes besides on and off-axis frequency response do you find to be necessary for a speaker to be 'good?'

I can certainly see how power handling/dynamics matters, but it can be really tricky to quantify with simple numbers, as it is frequency and duration dependent.

But what other parameters matter?

Tang Band drivers are known in the industry for huge sample to sample variation. Making drivers consistent is very difficult and expensive.

In addition Tang Band embellish the specs. Take that 5" driver. There are wiggles in the impedance curve indicating resonance deleted form the FR. In addition I don't believe the FR they publish for that driver is in the least bit honest and largely fiction. No metal cone driver is going to have an FR like that.

Dynaudio are one of those companies that pushed the boundaries of motor design. Others were companies like ATC and SEAS for instance. The use of especially compressed and shaped wire, so that the coils could be tighter wound for instance. There were many other advances made that set their drivers apart.

This allows the drivers to really be able to reproduce the body of the orchestra realistically.

If I thought I could build excellent speaker with $50.00 drivers I would, but I can't. So I have to pony up for SEAS EXEL drivers.

 

[PENG]

But what other parameters matter?

IMO distortions and the enclosure/acoustics related parameters matter a lot.

 

[everettT]

I know salk and Philharmonic have used tangband midranges. The later on the slims and salk on the

http://www.salksound.com/model.php?model=Song3

 

[MrBoat]

This allows the drivers to really be able to reproduce the body of the orchestra realistically.
If I thought I could build excellent speaker with $50.00 drivers I would, but I can't. So I have to pony up for SEAS EXEL drivers.

Of course you are factually correct but, excellent speakers can be built with cheaper drivers since the advent of computer controlled design and manufacturing. Certainly excellent in an audible sense and compared to all but very specialized rooms they are likely installed in.

I'd even go as far as to say that in these times, one would almost have to intentionally restrict driver quality with all the knowns of the tech that exists now. They could certainly manufacture a light bulb that lasts 20 years but, what would that do to the industry?

And, even if you could build an excellent speaker with cheap drivers, you likely would not.

 

[Beave]

Tang Band drivers are known in the industry for huge sample to sample variation. Making drivers consistent is very difficult and expensive.

In addition Tang Band embellish the specs. Take that 5" driver. There are wiggles in the impedance curve indicating resonance deleted form the FR. In addition I don't believe the FR they publish for that driver is in the least bit honest and largely fiction. No metal cone driver is going to have an FR like that.

It's not a metal cone. It's plastic.

Dynaudio are one of those companies that pushed the boundaries of motor design. Others were companies like ATC and SEAS for instance. The use of especially compressed and shaped wire, so that the coils could be tighter wound for instance. There were many other advances made that set their drivers apart.

This allows the drivers to really be able to reproduce the body of the orchestra realistically.

If I thought I could build excellent speaker with $50.00 drivers I would, but I can't. So I have to pony up for SEAS EXEL drivers.

No offense, but this sounds like brand name snobbery more than anything.

 

[TLS Guy]

It's not a metal cone..

It's not a metal cone. It's plastic.



No offense, but this sounds like brand name snobbery more than anything.

You can believe what you want, but the foundation of a really good speaker is a good design around high quality drivers.

I put too much time and effort in my speakers not to use the finest drivers.

Back in the eighties Dynaudio drivers were available to the DIY builder. They were very well made drivers with massive motor systems. I'm still using them today.

I have visited ATC and seen for myself the effort and precision that goes into the design and building of their very high quality transducers.

I'm not going to take any notice of what you have to say about this. I encourage the OP to trust his ears and go ahead with the purchase of those Dynaudio speakers. I'm sure he won't regret it.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

I know salk and Philharmonic have used tangband midranges. The later on the slims and salk on the

http://www.salksound.com/model.php?model=Song3

I used the titanium W4-1337SD in my Slims Jr towers, and Jim uses the ferrite magnet version in the entry-level Song 3 models. The W4 is capable of full-range operation down to 70 Hz, and can provide surprisingly good treble response with an appropriate trap circuit. Jim and I use it exclusively as a midrange, where its response is superbly flat combined with low distortion.. It's easily the equal of any of any Seas mids I've tried other than the most expensive Excel units, and it out-performs some Scan Speak units. It's certainly not junk. That said, I've had tried some TB drivers I did not care for, and that had factory response curves best described as creative.

 

[ematthews]

Well guys. I went with the Revel F208 .... And wow.. What a speaker it is. The balance from top to bottom is incredible. As well as the mids.. The highs are a little smooth in my room but it's nice. But....... I have a failed driver after 2 weeks. One of the tweeters is distorting. I have a chance to either swap it out, or exchange for the Dynaudio.. Monitor Audio Gold 300 came up as well but I am unsure I want to go back to a ribbon again.
I think maybe this was a sign I should have gone with the Dynaudio IMO.. However.. I may go X44 since I upped the budget to the F208... Anyone here think the X44 having a hight of 48 in is to tall to sit only 8-10 feet back???/ Help if you can.

 

[TLS Guy]

Well guys. I went with the Revel F208 .... And wow.. What a speaker it is. The balance from top to bottom is incredible. As well as the mids.. The highs are a little smooth in my room but it's nice. But....... I have a failed driver after 2 weeks. One of the tweeters is distorting. I have a chance to either swap it out, or exchange for the Dynaudio.. Monitor Audio Gold 300 came up as well but I am unsure I want to go back to a ribbon again.
I think maybe this was a sign I should have gone with the Dynaudio IMO.. However.. I may go X44 since I upped the budget to the F208... Anyone here think the X44 having a hight of 48 in is to tall to sit only 8-10 feet back???/ Help if you can.

I think you will be fine. Dynaudio have specialized in making drivers with an extended out of band response and smooth roll off out of band. This enables the use of low order crossovers.
The tweeter mid crossover is first order, so there will be a 15 degree downward tilt to the listening axis.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Well guys. I went with the Revel F208........ I have a failed driver after 2 weeks. One of the tweeters is distorting.

How loud were you playing?

 

[ematthews]

Ha ha..... not loud at all. Here is the strange issue. I hooked them back up for a last listen last night. For 4 hours straight, I had no issue . Whatttt??? Weird. Now what?